What’s your preference. Okajima or Denver Pedigree ? 2 2

[adamstrange]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:01 PM, Robot Man said:

Denver PA is right next to Adamstown, PA a legendary place for antique collecting. Have been there many times and scored a lot of old comics in the shops and flea markets. It is about a half an hour away from Allentown. The birthplace of another legendary pedigree comic find. 

Next, you're going to tell me that the Bethlehem pedigree didn't come from Israel. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 1/31/2024 at 5:02 PM, lou_fine said:

Didn't you just contradicted yourself with your post here?  

No, most of the later Okajima books (post '45) don't have writing on the cover, and those later issues also have very nice pages.

[jimbo_7071]

On 1/31/2024 at 6:40 PM, MrBedrock said:

Yep, awful page quality...

 

Those two appear to have nice enough pages, but many of them have off-white or even cream-to-off-white pages according to the slabs. (The Daring Mystery #1 used to be slabbed with off-white pages, so I guess it was right on the line that was shifted in late '05 when CGC relaxed the criteria for page quality.)

The changing standards make it harder to compare, but the Okajima's appear to be much fresher.

Edited February 1 by jimbo_7071

[MrBedrock]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:24 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Those two appear to have nice enough pages, but many of them have off-white or even cream-to-off-white pages according to the slabs. (The Daring Mystery #1 used to be slabbed with off-white pages, so I guess it was right on the line that was shifted in late '05 when CGC relaxed the criteria for page quality.)

The changing standards make it harder to compare, but the Okajima's appear to be much fresher.

Can you show us some crummy paged Denvers?

[MrBedrock]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:12 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

No, most of the later Okajima books (post '45) don't have writing on the cover, and those later issues also have very nice pages.

I agree with you that the later Okijimas have very nice, off-white to white type pages ... as opposed to the crummy off-white to white type pages of Denver books.

[Drgoldage]

Hmmm lots of fun comparing these  collections  and we are all entitled to our opinion .If  I’m reading correctly some collectors prefer the 0kijami because especially the newer issues have more white page copies than the Denver and also have no marks on the cover .  I checked “my slabbed comics “and  of the 35 Okajami there , there were  11 white , 17 off white to white , 5 that were off white and 2 that  were cream to off white I checked Heritage for Denver’s found out of 50 books 8 that were white , 4 that were cream to off white and 32 that were white to off white or just off white . I would say percentage wise the okajami has a slight advantage . As far as no marks on cover I would say The Denver is at least as mark free as the Okajami . In regards to “Key” Golden age I really couldn’t find one on the “My slabbed Comics “ for Okajami though there must be a few . On the other hand Capt America 1 Batman 1 Human torch 1 Flash  1 Green lantern 1 Sensation 1 Submariner 1 Planet 1 and on it goes for the Denver pedigree . Both are notable but give me the Denver Pedigree by a landslide .

 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 1/31/2024 at 5:58 PM, Drgoldage said:

That Doll man 1 and Dating mystery 1 are gorgeous,  with no surprise  great paper !!

Yep, dating mystery always looks great on paper. 

Edited February 3 by Cat-Man_America
Ale added!

[buttock]

On 1/31/2024 at 11:52 PM, MrBedrock said:

I agree with you that the later Okijimas have very nice, off-white to white type pages ... as opposed to the crummy off-white to white type pages of Denver books.

Most of them have writing on the cover also. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/1/2024 at 1:48 AM, MrBedrock said:

Can you show us some crummy paged Denvers?

Your wish is my command! These are all from Matt's old web site. Roughly a third of the Denver books on the site have Cream-to-off-white pages. I only saw three that had White pages (including the Doll Man).

 

 

 

[MrBedrock]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:49 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Your wish is my command! These are all from Matt's old web site. Roughly a third of the Denver books on the site have Cream-to-off-white pages. I only saw three that had White pages (including the Doll Man).

 

 

 

I don't consider any of those books or their pages crummy.

[action1kid]

On 2/1/2024 at 5:42 PM, MrBedrock said:

I don't consider any of those books or their pages crummy.

There are some who consider cream/ off white  a kiss of death. I’m not one. 

[MrBedrock]

On 2/1/2024 at 5:28 PM, action1kid said:

There are some who consider cream/ off white  a kiss of death.

Those folks do not love golden age comics.

[jimjum12]

On 1/31/2024 at 11:54 AM, Drgoldage said:

It was a few months after James Payette and Sparkle City acquired the “Denver “collection  early 1980 s I would say when I went down to a large antique show in downtown Omaha. I came across  a booth put up by a middle age couple from Colorado they had a lot of everything glass antique furniture old paper items and too my delight a box of high grade  comics from the 1950s . We started talking and they mentioned they had an antique store in Colorado which they kept stocked with frequent buying  trips back east , Pennsylvania a frequent state to visit and buy . Anyway while back east they caught site of a  flyer of an upcoming auction in Pennslyvania of a retired retail shop owner that caught their interest as it had older quality furniture ,antiques smalls etc including  paper items .The couple were not comic dealers or collectors but they got to the auction at an early preview and found one small box with twenty some comics  and on another table a larger box with more than a hundred. .The previous owner had apparently owned a newsstand and had kept one copy of first issues of magazines newspapers and comic books .The auction was loaded with quality items and the comic boxes were just there no fanfare but they immediately noticed these were not rag tag random comics but rather high grade all number 1 issues including Batman 1 , Marvel Comics 1 , Flash 1 , Captain America 1  all from late 1930 to early 1940s . The books were not protected no bags no boards no description of contents and they immediately knew they were special and valuable .  They noticed  the comics received no special attention at the preview they did request of the auctioneer to put the boxes next to each other with which they complied . Later that day they reviewed a comic price guide and made banking arrangements to have available nearly 50,000 dollars but they hoped to get them for, of course, far less . The day of the auction came and though a few auction goers looked at the box they received no special attention . The auction started and at the request of the couple the comics were sold early , to their surprise the Auctioneer grabbed  the first larger box and heaved the contents spreading them  across a empty table so the audience could get a better look. As it turned out there was one other auction goer who recognized the books were special and the bidding which started low quickly escalated with just the two bidding back and forth . The general audience had no idea of there value and when they won the first box for 8000 dollars they were relieved and the other bidder dejected he knew they were worth more but that’s all the money he had . The second bidder lost interest when he knew he had no chance to win and then  the second box went only for 1000 or so I was told . The couple after the auction put the books in plastic bags packed then tightly in luggage and then contacted several major dealers . James Payette received the list of high grade first issues asked for them  to send a example of one of the lowest graded items , found the book of high quality and bought the collection along with Sparkle City . My conversation with the couple sparked my interest so ,I bought a high grade Stange Adventures  9 that day (not from the Denver collection ) and then I contacted James Payette who still had several “Denver “copies available . 

[action1kid]

On 2/1/2024 at 6:30 PM, MrBedrock said:

Those folks do not love golden age comics.

I do. I have cream/ off white GA.

[batman_fan]

On 2/1/2024 at 1:49 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Your wish is my command! These are all from Matt's old web site. Roughly a third of the Denver books on the site have Cream-to-off-white pages. I only saw three that had White pages (including the Doll Man).

 

 

 

I would make mad passionate love to each and every one of those books and hit the Looney Tunes twice.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/1/2024 at 5:42 PM, MrBedrock said:

I don't consider any of those books or their pages crummy.

Reasonable people can disagree. The original question was whether collectors preferred Denver or Okajima. I prefer Okajima because the pages seem to be nicer—simple as that.

On 2/1/2024 at 6:28 PM, action1kid said:

There are some who consider cream/ off white  a kiss of death. I’m not one. 

"Kiss of death" might be a bit harsh, but I would expect nicer page quality in books bestowed with a pedigree designation.

 

On 2/1/2024 at 6:30 PM, MrBedrock said:

Those folks do not love golden age comics.

I do love golden age comics, but even parents have favorites among their children (even if they deny it). My favorites are the ones with fresh pages. I've had books that I bought raw come back with C/OW pages, and I wouldn't kick them out of my collection, but I've never bought a slabbed book with that designation.

To me, the page quality should be front and center when determining a book's grade. I see that level of deterioration of the paper as a defect that should bring the grade down below 8.0. That ship sailed long ago when CGC decided not to give page quality as much weight as I would have preferred, so I simply choose not to spend my limited comic book funds on books with the C/OW designation.

[walclark]

I only have one Denver copy. Thought I would share it here:

[Robot Man]

On 2/1/2024 at 7:14 PM, batman_fan said:

I would make mad passionate love to each and every one of those books and hit the Looney Tunes twice.

Indeed. If those were all just worth cover price and I only had one dime, I’d be all over that Looney Tunes. The biggest key of the bunch and a unicorn in that shape. 

[mwotka]

Tough comparison and I certainly get the appeal of the Denver #1s.  Glad to read the true history behind the find.  But for my money, the camp copy Okajima's with the writing are where it is at.  The combination of strong intersection of tragic history and a true triumph of collecting.  Imagine your family is at home in California and one day the authorities show up and demand that you immediately pack a suitcase each and leave everything else behind.  Then get moved to a camp that is basically being housed in old stables with curtains between them for several years.  And these kids still went to the general store at the camp and bought a lot of comics, some of which were anti-Japanese propaganda, and read them faithfully (just serving to underscore they were true Americans).  And then this whole time they kept those comics in nice condition, and then carefully took them with them when the camp was vacated and carefully packed and stored them until they were found decades later.   And then you have the main collecting family member being a female collector, and sharing with her siblings, so a true female and family pedigree, which is rare.  I just think this is the most fascinating story imaginable for a pedigree, and I hope one day to own a camp copy.  I've got a post camp copy of Indians and it was graded 7.5 ow/w.  

[EastEnd1]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:01 PM, Robot Man said:

Yes, Denver PA is right next to Adamstown, PA a legendary place for antique collecting. Have been there many times and scored a lot of old comics in the shops and flea markets. It is about a half an hour away from Allentown. The birthplace of another legendary pedigree comic find. 

And just a little bit further to Bethlehem PA for yet another great pedigree collection... 

Certainly something in the water back in the day in PA!