Certified Collectibles Group to Acquire James Spence Authentication 10 10

[lostboys]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:31 PM, DocGo said:

Do you think there’s a difference between witnessed and authenticated? 

Well, the dude on Pawn Stars authenticates sigs for Rick but he didnt witness them being signed.

 

[drotto]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:31 PM, DocGo said:

Do you think there’s a difference between witnessed and authenticated? 

Yes, there is still a difference. Witnessed is 100% valid. Authentication is not an exact science so it means the signature is very likely real, but you can never say with 100% certainty.

[Matt1982]

The announcement was absolutely clear that this is the path to having CGC-graded books that were signed but unwitnessed. That other company gives them a yellow label and notes the difference between "witnessed" and "verified." Something like that would make a ton of sense here.

[drotto]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:35 PM, lostboys said:

Well, the dude on Pawn Stars authenticates sigs for Rick but he didnt witness them being signed.

 

And he always hedges his bet just a tiny bit. He will never say he is 100% sure. It is always, it looks good, it appears authentic, I think you have the real thing here, or something like that.  He never say this is 100% no question real.

[Matt1982]

This is fantastic for me! I've got a book from DD's Born Again run (thanks so much Rich Henn) that has a witnessed sig by Frank Miller, and is also signed by David Mazzuchelli, unwitnessed. The book has a yellow label with a green stripe across the top and said "name written on cover". If I get that re-graded it should say something like "Witnessed Miller Sig, Verified Mazzuchelli Sig." And since Mazzuchelli never signs stuff, I'm glad to be able to do that.

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 3/20/2024 at 1:37 PM, Matt1982 said:

The announcement was absolutely clear that this is the path to having CGC-graded books that were signed but unwitnessed. That other company gives them a yellow label and notes the difference between "witnessed" and "verified." Something like that would make a ton of sense here.

Yes.

What do I do with comics, magazines and cards with autographs that have been encapsulated with a CGC Qualified Grade green label?

We will offer a service for autographed collectibles that are already encapsulated in the CGC Qualified Grade green label to be recertified by JSA and CGC. An announcement will be made when this service is available.

 

So you can finally get rid of those ugly green labels.

A key issue here is that there are plenty of obvious signatures: The Todds and Stan Lees that should have never gone green in the first place.

[wombat]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:40 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

The Todds and Stan Lees that should have never gone green in the first place.

What color do you think they should have been?

[drotto]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:40 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

Yes.

What do I do with comics, magazines and cards with autographs that have been encapsulated with a CGC Qualified Grade green label?

We will offer a service for autographed collectibles that are already encapsulated in the CGC Qualified Grade green label to be recertified by JSA and CGC. An announcement will be made when this service is available.

 

So you can finally get rid of those ugly green labels.

A key issue here is that there are plenty of obvious signatures: The Todds and Stan Lees that should have never gone green in the first place.

They should have been green, the existing policy is only witness signatures get the yellow label, and they had no way to say otherwise. There is no way a submitter or grader should have been taken as an authority on signatures. There are many very talented people out there that can fake signature or certificates of authenticity. Hell, I have seen many determined kids that can do a great job faking their parents signature. 

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 3/20/2024 at 1:44 PM, wombat said:

What color do you think they should have been?

My point is that this should have been dealt with this obvious problem years ago, at least for the well known/high end signers like McFarlane and Stan Lee.  They coulda hired someone who could have at least verify some of the artists/writers. Alternatively they could have accepted outside verification from professionals. 

Does anyone really think I just wrote "stan lee" on my copy of ASM 1?    

Glad they got around to it finally.

 

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 3/20/2024 at 1:50 PM, drotto said:

They should have been green, the existing policy is only witness signatures get the yellow label, and they had no way to say otherwise. There is no way a submitter or grader should have been taken as an authority on signatures. There are many very talented people out there that can fake signature or certificates of authenticity. Hell, I have seen many determined kids that can do a great job faking their parents signature. 

That's why you just have two tiers. Witnessed and professional verified. 

Buyers can judge for themselves, and the witnessed ones would be perferred of course.

That said, someone can fake/lie that it was witnessed... these are all inductive claims after all, and all in doubt. 

[Mr. Zipper]

I believe this will be a two way street that fills a gap for each company: JSA will authenticate unwitnessed signatures for CGC submissions, and CGC will be able to encapsulate autograph submissions to JSA. Currently JSA is the only one of the big three autograph authenticators (JSA, PSA and Beckett) that does not offer slabbing. 

In full transparency, I am a consultant for JSA but have no inside knowledge into this matter. 

Edited March 20 by Mr. Zipper

[wombat]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:54 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

That's why you just have two tiers. Witnessed and professional verified. 

Buyers can judge for themselves, and the witnessed ones would be perferred of course.

That said, someone can fake/lie that it was witnessed... these are all inductive claims after all, and all in doubt. 

I get it. You are mad about the green label. But you are just talking nonsense. 

[drotto]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:51 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

My point is that this should have been dealt with this obvious problem years ago, at least for the well known/high end signers like McFarlane and Stan Lee.  They coulda hired someone who could have at least verify some of the artists/writers. Alternatively they could have accepted outside verification from professionals. 

Does anyone really think I just wrote "stan lee" on my copy of ASM 1?    

Glad they got around to it finally.

 

You can certainly argue they should have done this sooner, but with the competitions authentication people have always questioned by whom and how those signatures have been verified. CGC has finally decided it is monitarly worth it for them to provide this service.  Do you remember those Steve Ditko signatures a few years back that were verified by a grading company and clearly fake?

 

Also, you may not write signed by Stan Lee on your book, but if the current fraud issues tell us anything, there are plenty of people who would.

Edited March 20 by drotto

[drotto]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:54 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

That's why you just have two tiers. Witnessed and professional verified. 

Buyers can judge for themselves, and the witnessed ones would be perferred of course.

That said, someone can fake/lie that it was witnessed... these are all inductive claims after all, and all in doubt. 

You already had two tiers, yellow label and green label.  Green noted the signature and it was then up to the buyer if it was valid.

[Mr. Zipper]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:57 PM, drotto said:

 Do you remember those Steve Ditko signatures a few years back that were verified by a grading company and clearly fake?

 

Also, you may not write signed by Stan Lee on your book, but if the current fraud issues tell us anything, there are plenty of people who would.

If we are thinking of the same situation, it was PGX that "authenticated" a bunch of fake Ditkos, Lees, Kirbys, etc.

And you are correct, there are plenty of people who would fake a signature on any comic if it meant boosting the potential value thousands of dollars. 

[lostboys]

Ill never buy a graded book with a sig that wasnt witnessed.

 

 

 

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:00 PM, drotto said:

You already had two tiers, yellow label and green label.  Green noted the signature and it was then up to the buyer if it was valid.

Um, no. Two tiers of authenticating signatures would be witnessed and professional verification. 

So, um, point that stick at yourself, sonny.

 

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 3/20/2024 at 1:57 PM, wombat said:

I get it. You are mad about the green label. But you are just talking nonsense. 

No, not "mad" about the label. 

I would prefer to that signature that I had Stan do before there were even slabs be verified by a professional.

Signature verification is not nonsense, it is a valued service. Which is why CGC just decided to add it to their business. They certainly don't think it's nonsense. 

 Always interested at how mad others get over these things. 

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:57 PM, drotto said:

You can certainly argue they should have done this sooner, but with the competitions authentication people have always questioned by whom and how those signatures have been verified. CGC has finally decided it is monitarly worth it for them to provide this service.  Do you remember those Steve Ditko signatures a few years back that were verified by a grading company and clearly fake?

 

Also, you may not write signed by Stan Lee on your book, but if the current fraud issues tell us anything, there are plenty of people who would.

I think there's a big difference between a Ditko signature and a Stan Lee signature.

(I do have to add that all of this went down when Stan was still alive and signing.)

Ditko was a introverted recluse with a standing insistence that he'd not sign anything unless he was currently working on it.

My ASM 1 was already worth a few grand when it was signed (Pre CGC's existence). Putting a fake name on it when the real guy was not only alive but signing everything in sight (for around 50 bucks) would have been lunacy. Might as well have drawn a mustache on the cover.

For that reason I always felt that outside verification should have been used for some of the bigger names. Glad that they now have gotten around to it!

I would add that now that Stan is gone that the possibility of fraud is greater than it was at the time this book was slabbed and that changes things. But c'mon, stan's sharpie signature kinda stands out.

 

 

[thehumantorch]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:31 PM, DocGo said:

On 3/20/2024 at 12:28 PM, Axelrod said:

If it's not going to be a yellow label, then, what's the point at all?  

I imagine they will give these yellow labels.  Possibly with some kind of notation to distinguish whether it was a "witnessed" sig. vs an "authenticated" sig.

Do you think there’s a difference between witnessed and authenticated? 

Absolutely.  If it's witnessed there's no signature opinion required, just eyeballs.  If it's authenticated it's essentially an expert's opinion and as good as an expert may be I'm sure they can be fooled.