Ed Piskor Has Passed 5 5

[BrashL]

On 4/2/2024 at 2:16 PM, sfcityduck said:

So if the young woman commits suicide because she is being blamed by people like you for Ed's suicide, you take on that responsibility?

Take on what responsibility? I said actions have consequences. So if you're saying would I have to deal with that as a potential consequence of my actions then yes. It doesn't automatically mean it's my fault or even a contributing factor, it's just a fact.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/2/2024 at 12:37 PM, BrashL said:

Take on what responsibility? I said actions have consequences. So if you're saying would I have to deal with that as a potential consequence of my actions then yes. It doesn't automatically mean it's my fault or even a contributing factor, it's just a fact.

 

 

On this we agree: The young woman's decision to tell her story does not make her at fault for Ed's suicide. 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/2/2024 at 11:08 AM, BrashL said:

I was a criminal prosecutor for many years and i never once encountered anything like this. Where in your legal experience did you see this happen or are you just smearing two professions based on something you saw on Law and Order SVU?

There are so many examples, I have trouble believing you never encountered one. I just gave you one of the most famous examples: The Central Park Five in NYC - a national story for years. I can cite you many many examples. Any attorney, especially prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys, can cite such examples - even just a civil litigator like me. I cannot believe that you are truly trying to deny the problems of wrongful convictions based on cross-racial eyewitness identifications or are ignorant of the many examples innocent people sent to jail based on bad identifications that ultimately are exonerated by DNA and other evidence, including confessions by the true perpetrators. What state are you in?

 

[BrashL]

On 4/2/2024 at 2:42 PM, sfcityduck said:

On this we agree: The young woman's decision to tell her story does not make her at fault for Ed's suicide. 

Fault is a tricky word, I assume you mean liable or responsible for his death and I agree, she is not.

I don't think she did the right thing by blasting out her grievances the way she did and I won't speculate on why she did, but had her post gone into the ether and stopped there this wouldn't have ended how it ended. Planes rarely crash for one reason and usually could have been prevented at multiple points in the causal chain. Unfortunately nothing stopped that first fallen domino from reaching the end. And sure, you could argue that his behavior was the first domino, or him getting to be big in the industry, or some unknown childhood trauma. The point is that at multple points someone doing the right thing could have stopped this and bad decision after bad decision led to tragedy. 

[BrashL]

Quote

There are so many examples, I have trouble believing you never encountered one. I just gave you one of the most famous examples: The Central Park Five in NYC - a national story for years. I can cite you many many examples. Any attorney, especially prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys, can cite such examples - even just a civil litigator like me. I cannot believe that you are truly trying to deny the problems of wrongful convictions based on cross-racial eyewitness identifications or are ignorant of the many examples innocent people sent to jail based on bad identifications that ultimately are exonerated by DNA and other evidence, including confessions by the true perpetrators. What state are you in?

I was speaking specifically to your paragraph about not believing rape victims. Why you spun that into a racial thing I have no idea.

Eyewitnesses in general tend to be unreliable for a lot of reasons and racism is generally pretty low on the list. I practiced in Cook County and the number of white witnesses testifying against minority defendants was less than 10%. The victims of most crimes committed by minorities are minorities, as are most eyewitnesses involved in those cases. It's just the neighborhoods the majority of crime occurs in. Most prosecutors and cops I dealt with just wanted to find justice for victims. I practiced in Cook County but after the Burge years; I'm not naive enough to think there aren't some evil people in positions they shouldn't be but they are far outweighed by good people doing hard jobs for low pay because they believe in what they are doing. 

Edited April 2 by BrashL

[Doctor Dositheus]

As usual for these boards, this conversation has sort of gone of the rails. I'd like to bring it back to the subject at hand.
 

I've been sorting through my feelings on this for a while now. I didn't want to share anything until I felt I could encompass all the nuances to this tragic event.

As a regular watcher of their YouTube channel, I've seen Ed become increasing uncomfortable in his own skin over the past several months. Just recently, he admitted that he was not a person who is comfortable on camera.

Ed had clearly built up a public facing persona over the years as a crutch. Lately, however, the façade was beginning to crumble. I think Ed was on the brink of figuring some things out and making some changes.

I think these revelations came at the worst possible time, when he was already questioning some of the choices he made and how he presented himself.

There is no doubt that Ed engaged in inappropriate communication with a young lady, and made her feel bad. Ed was likely attracted to younger women, as someone who is less than fully mature emotionally usually are. Ed may have also been a bad boyfriend, and treated his partners poorly as well.

The Pittsburgh news crew acted shamefully, and deserves all the scorn they get.

Unlike our comic books, there are no good guys/gals, no bad guys, only shades of gray.

Ed seemed in a fragile state, and spoke about taking a step back before any of this broke. Recently he was having trouble getting some of his words out on camera. Did he have some foreknowledge about what was about to happen? Maybe.

The point is, the whole situation is much more complex than most appreciate. It's my belief that Ed was already struggling with his mental health before this became public.

Now about the young lady and his ex. I ask you to imagine a world with no internet. I know most of you are old enough to remember this world. In a world with no internet, what should justice look like for inappropriate communication that took place in the past, made you feel uncomfortable, that you now had the confidence to address? Our human nature can't help but view the internet as a tool to achieve our goals. Why go shopping around to several stores when I can just go on the internet? Why go through the hassle of addressing old grievances through difficult and uncomfortable interpersonal communication if I can just go on the internet? When someone suffers a grievance, there are two options. You can choose to express your feelings and give the other an opportunity for an apology and amends, or you can seek the justice of old, like for like. The internet is town gossip on steroids. Ask yourself and contemplate, why did the ladies used to whisper and feel moral shame over their irresistible urge to discuss such things?

I think Ed was a naturally insecure person. He remained the nerdy teen who was picked on for reading comic books. Over the years he built up a persona that helped him cope with social anxiety and low self esteem. When that all came crumbling down he didn't have the tools he needed to pick himself back up, make amends and become stronger and a better person. As Don Henley sang, "give us dirty laundry". Little did Don know at the time how the internet would amplify those human tendencies. And little consideration is given in general on how the internet has amplified all of our human weaknesses.

RIP Ed

[sfcityduck]

On 4/2/2024 at 1:05 PM, BrashL said:

I was speaking specifically to your paragraph about not believing rape victims. Why you spun that into a racial thing I have no idea.

Eyewitnesses in general tend to be unreliable for a lot of reasons and racism is generally pretty low on the list. I practiced in Cook County and the number of white witnesses testifying against minority defendants was less than 10%. The victims of most crimes committed by minorities are minorities, as are most eyewitnesses involved in those cases. It's just the neighborhoods the majority of crime occurs in. Most prosecutors and cops I dealt with just wanted to find justice for victims. I practiced in Cook County but after the Burge years; I'm not naive enough to think there aren't some evil people in positions they shouldn't be but they are far outweighed by good people doing hard jobs for low pay because they believe in what they are doing. 

Eyewitness testimony is beloved by juries but, according to the studies, one of the least reliable forms of identification. And for cross-racial identification is far worse. Glad we agree on that.

As for prosecutors not taking rape accusations seriously, there's a lot of academic work on that but its not the sort of thing that ends up in the papers for specific victims for obvious reasons. What you are taking issue with is this statement:

"Historically, they took the position that it wasn't worth prosecuting a rape case on behalf of a sexually active woman. The notion was something along the lines of is the victim had sex with guy A, B, and C, then she couldn't win a rape case against guy D. Those attitudes have been hard to quash. There have been legal reforms."

As a prosecutor, I'm sure you are up on the history of rape shield laws and the need for them. So I'm not sure we need to debate this. States started enacting them in the 1970s and 1980s and we didn't get a federal rape shield law until the 1990s.

Edited April 2 by sfcityduck

[Ryan.]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:25 PM, Doctor Dositheus said:

It's my belief that Ed was already struggling with his mental health before this became public.

I share in this belief, as mental health challenges are not a switch that flick on and off, but rather a dial that is always "on" and merely increases and decreases in intensity over time.

[Corvonie]

(removed duplicate post)

Edited April 2 by Corvonie

[Corvonie]

On 4/2/2024 at 1:36 PM, wombat said:

But this is what I'm saying. His reputation. His career. He could have fought for those. Others have come back from things like this. Of course other factors could have been at play. Maybe he had issues know one knew about that made this worse for him. 

But what's the "fix" for this? Not have people step forward when they think they are a victim? Not cut ties with people if you know it will cost you business? How should this have played out?

I would say for me, personally, the "fix" is to not get involved in any way when someone I have no connection to shares an experience or opinion about anyone else I have no connection to.  Collectively, we could have viewed the initial 1st hand reports as like PSAs - and then said to ourselves "ok well this will either play itself out legally or somehow become clearer in the public eye.  I'll follow it if I'm interested."  

The problem is that, with social media, other people's lived experiences become something for each of us to react to - indeed, that's really the only value anything on social media has - and that generates the feeling of no safe haven, etc, when that attention is pointed at you.  

So for me, the fix is to keep increasingly realizing that I don't have to get involved in other people's stories just because I come across them and that social media interaction is most often a solely negative way of interacting.  

We can each control our own behavior.  I didn't get involved on reddit or anything, but did exchange a few presumptive txts with a friend.  And if anything I personally said online as someone completely disconnected from this whole thing would have added weight to what Ed, Molly, or anyone else felt in this situation, I would regret it.  And will try to remember that the next time something like this happens.

Edited April 2 by Corvonie

[sfcityduck]

On 4/2/2024 at 12:55 PM, BrashL said:

Fault is a tricky word, I assume you mean liable or responsible for his death and I agree, she is not.

I don't think she did the right thing by blasting out her grievances the way she did and I won't speculate on why she did

She has the right to tell her story. She gets to decide if that was the right thing. Ed had the right to ignore or respond, whichever he felt was right. People will judge if they care or ignore if they don't. If Ed thought he'd been defamed, he could have sued her. Then a court would judge.  That's basically what our laws encourage to happen. So I can't say she did the "wrong thing."

The internet is no different than standing on a box on a street corner. Except that you might reach more people (I'm pretty sure we don't). That's viewed as democratizing. You no longer have to be rich to get your story out. Now we can all reach whatever audience we can reach ... if we can cut through all the noise enough to get someone to listen which, ironically, seems to work best for the rich and famous. We can all debate whether the internet is good or not. I personally think our country has lost its cohesiveness due to the democratization of speech, much of it gibberish wacko which tricks the gullible, and proliferation of media which had eroded national consensus. But none of us can argue that its improper for her to tell a true story. We may not like it. It may make us uncomfortable. But everyone has the right to do so (with very limited exceptions).

[Math Teacher]

On 4/2/2024 at 10:35 AM, BrashL said:

That's the problem with social media lynch mobs and whisper campaigns. He can't defend himself because he's already been convicted and sentenced. He already lost all his work, he already had people start to pull away from him for fear of guilt by association. This is exactly why we have a criminal justice system to being with. 

Although it is far too late, I would have suggested that he stay off social media for an extended period of time. After a while, these Internet bullies move on to someone else.

[Math Teacher]

On 4/2/2024 at 11:20 AM, sfcityduck said:

The problem with rape victims is less the courts than it is the police and prosecutors. Historically, they took the position that it wasn't worth prosecuting a rape case on behalf of a sexually active woman. The notion was something along the lines of is the victim had sex with guy A, B, and C, then she couldn't win a rape case against guy D. Those attitudes have been hard to quash.

This has been addressed, to some degree, by rape shield laws.

[Math Teacher]

On 4/2/2024 at 2:26 PM, jimjum12 said:

There's not enough profit in Mental Health care, it's swept under the rug, and used to victimize people who should be getting some help, by the people who should be giving it to them. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

As someone who suffers from depression, there is still a lot of thought from the old days around. 

"What do you have to be sad about? Buck up, buttercup!"

In fact, I didn't start making any progress toward getting better until I, myself, recognized that depression is no different than any other disease, such as diabetes or Parkinsons.

[jimjum12]

On 4/2/2024 at 6:54 PM, Math Teacher said:

As someone who suffers from depression, there is still a lot of thought from the old days around. 

"What do you have to be sad about? Buck up, buttercup!"

In fact, I didn't start making any progress toward getting better until I, myself, recognized that depression is no different than any other disease, such as diabetes or Parkinsons.

My Mom was manic depressive and was in and out of the Hospital most my life. She even had electric shock treatments in the 70's, Thorazine, and all the other mistakes that were made with treatment back then. My sisters wouldn't take the Grandkids by, it was so bad, but at the end of her life, she finally accepted her medications and the Family mended. She passed at age 58, from the damage done from a combination of her many self destructive behaviors. While her depressive side was rough, her manic side was just so beautiful. It's complicated and pervasive. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited April 3 by jimjum12

[Dr. Balls]

On 4/2/2024 at 2:25 PM, Doctor Dositheus said:

In a world with no internet, what should justice look like for inappropriate communication that took place in the past, made you feel uncomfortable, that you now had the confidence to address?

It used to look like a big ol' helping of "Gettin' Over It and Movin' On". But that was 30-40 years ago where people were made from sterner stuff than what society is now. The confidence to address someone being creepy online? Do you really need "confidence" to address that? How about harnessing the simple ability of moving on with life? 

So Ed's a dirtbag because he talks to 17 year olds? Fine. Who cares. The world is filled with people like that. decades ago, it was called "Ignoring Someone Weird." In 2024, it's now called "LOSING MY MIND FOR LITERALLY DAYS WHILE I FREAK OUT AND DEMAND ATTENTION".

The fact that the terms "inappropriate behavior", "uncomfortable communication" and "grooming" can now be weaponized by people who feel that they aren't getting enough attention is absolute weakness in our society - and it's all commonplace now.

[rlextherobot]

I've been so deeply torn up about this in a way that I didn't expect to be. I think largely because it reinforces something I have been thinking about for a while: things are broken and there is no room for people who did wrong to get to learn and be better and for reparations to be made for misdeeds. I want to live in a world where there is simultaneously room for accountability and empathy and I feel like this whole horrible tragedy is an indicator that we're just not wired for that. RIP Ed. 

[Corvonie]

On 4/2/2024 at 6:54 PM, Math Teacher said:

As someone who suffers from depression, there is still a lot of thought from the old days around. 

"What do you have to be sad about? Buck up, buttercup!"

In fact, I didn't start making any progress toward getting better until I, myself, recognized that depression is no different than any other disease, such as diabetes or Parkinsons.

Yes and we all think we’ve stilled our waters until the next pebble hits the surface, or that we’ve dug a far deeper groove of good habits than we often have.

Depression and PTSD are like the sword of damacles, in my experience.  I can make tons of progress, but I have to be vigilant because any stray thing can bring them right back to the forefront after years.

Understanding and reckoning with the fact that you have a disability is so hard, especially a “hidden” one like this.

I’m so happy you’ve made the progress you have and wish you continued progress

[Mike's Rack]

Ed Piskor was an imperfect person.  He also brought incomparable meaning and joy to the lives of many people, myself included.  I am also an imperfect person, I hope I can bring others a fraction of the meaning and joy that Ed did.

[troydivision1]

On 4/1/2024 at 5:20 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

There's a great (and much needed) book called Monsters, by Claire Dederer. It's all about the question of "Can we still love the work of people who were not great humans in real life?" I'm NOT lumping Ed into that category, but his tragic death is so relevant. The summation of Dederer's book is that we love the art of "monsters" and even still love the people themselves because it's love and love is madness and it doesn't always make sense and it's deeply personal. So what one person loves/hates is up to them, not society. We can love our parents even if they beat us as kids, we can love a spouse even if they've strayed, we can love a child even if they've committed a terrible crime. It's not for the mobs to decide. I think if that kind of space/grace were allowed we'd all be better off. Will we get there? Doubtful, but hopefully this tragedy will will move us in that direction. 

RIP Ed.

Thank you for sharing. I preordered the softcover.