Sellers misrepresenting artwork 2 2

[Brian Peck]

What does everyone think about sellers not mentioning the inker when selling artwork?

This question came up due to a page posted on a dealers site of Nightcrawler #4 and Dave Cockrum is listed as the penciler and inker which is blatantly untrue.

Joe Rubinstein was the inker, in fact he is credited as embellisher which means Dave gave him less to work with than usual. Don't get me wrong I love Joe Rubinstein's inks and he was a good match for Dave. But the dealer listed the page as $6500 (it's on hold already). That is a very healthy price for a page from the series but that would be if its from the first three issues that Dave Cockrum penciled and inked. This page is being promoted as penciled and inked by Dave when it is NOT.

When it comes to prices like this, the seller should be up front about what the page really is. I hope the buyer realizes that the art was sold under false pretences and its not all by Dave.

 

[RBerman]

Could be an honest mistake if Cockrum did ink the other three issues of this mini. Cockrum is listed as the inker here: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nightcrawler_Vol_1_4. But the title page does list Rubinstein as "finisher." I reached out to Joe and will post update if he responds.

 

[Brian Peck]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:05 PM, RBerman said:

Could be an honest mistake if Cockrum did ink the other three issues of this mini. Cockrum is listed as the inker here: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nightcrawler_Vol_1_4. But the title page does list Rubinstein as "finisher." I reached out to Joe and will post update if he responds.

 

I own a page from issue #4 and I know it's inked by Joe Rubinstein. Many who collect the series know this, Dave was running later on the issue and Joe helped out. I would not put any weight behind fandom's accuracy.

Edited May 3 by Brian Peck
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[Dr. Balls]

I think there's a fine line between misrepresenting and not doing a little research. As a collector, part of the fun and interest for me is learning about the page and the artists involved. I would imagine a dealer who is posting lots of artwork that might be his to sell, on consignment, etc may not give it that level of attention.

I spent $12 to buy a book for a page of art I bought for $50 to make sure I had the correctly notated page and artist information - but that's just me, and that additional cost is part of my desire to have an accurately notated piece of art - I would imagine that there's a different threshold to how much time and additional money dealers want to put into a piece of artwork they have only to sell, not enjoy.

[Brian Peck]

On 5/3/2024 at 4:09 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I think there's a fine line between misrepresenting and not doing a little research. As a collector, part of the fun and interest for me is learning about the page and the artists involved. I would imagine a dealer who is posting lots of artwork that might be his to sell, on consignment, etc may not give it that level of attention.

I spent $12 to buy a book for a page of art I bought for $50 to make sure I had the correctly notated page and artist information - but that's just me, and that additional cost is part of my desire to have an accurately notated piece of art - I would imagine that there's a different threshold to how much time and additional money dealers want to put into a piece of artwork they have only to sell, not enjoy.

You sell something for $6500 do your research.

 

[RBerman]

 

I sent Glen a message about this.

[glenbru]

Thanks for letting me know. I was not aware when I posted it.

The page is sold - the buyer is aware who the inker is.

[J.Sid]

No one used to sweat this stuff when OA pages like this were $150 apiece, but at the levels things are at these days....

[Michael Browning]

This happens so often. I don’t think Glen knew, but comic art collectors misrepresent art like this all the time. It happens a lot with the Marvel UK art, where one artist is credited but that artist never touched the art and it was a Marvel UK staff artist like Jeff Aclin and Howard Bender who really drew it. I’ve seen so many pages listed as being by Starlin, Chaykin and Infantino where those artists never even touched the art board and they’ve all spoken about it publicly and the owners/sellers of the art still list the art as being by Starlin, Chaykin and Infantino.

Marvel Team-Up #77 is a good example where every page has been sold as being penciled by Chaykin and Jeff Aclin, but both artists have gone on record several times stating that Chaykin never touched the art and it was drawn by Aclin.

Another one that I have fought against for YEARS is the What If #16 art that one collector on CAF (who is also an eBay dealer) claims is drawn by Dave Stevens, when it is clearly not and the Dave Stevens Estate has even listed the pages he inked from that issue on their official website. The CAF listings are still up and the guy periodically lists the pages as being drawn by Stevens, even though he KNOWS they’re not. I’ve told him several times and he always sends me some smart aleck message telling me to mind my own business.

Here’s the reason I know all of this and why I have researched it so much: Several years ago, I bought a Star Wars Weekly cover preliminary that was sold to me as being drawn by Dave Cockrum. It is certainly in Cockrum’s style, but it lists Howard Bender at the top, meaning he is the actual artist. I reached out to Howard and he confirmed it, then a previous owner confirmed it, too.

[timguerrero]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:40 PM, Brian Peck said:

What does everyone think about sellers not mentioning the inker when selling artwork?

This question came up due to a page posted on a dealers site of Nightcrawler #4 and Dave Cockrum is listed as the penciler and inker which is blatantly untrue.

Joe Rubinstein was the inker, in fact he is credited as embellisher which means Dave gave him less to work with than usual. Don't get me wrong I love Joe Rubinstein's inks and he was a good match for Dave. But the dealer listed the page as $6500 (it's on hold already). That is a very healthy price for a page from the series but that would be if its from the first three issues that Dave Cockrum penciled and inked. This page is being promoted as penciled and inked by Dave when it is NOT.

When it comes to prices like this, the seller should be up front about what the page really is. I hope the buyer realizes that the art was sold under false pretences and its not all by Dave.

 

It doesn't matter how many pages a dealer is selling due diligence is a must at those outrageous price tags! As a buyer I've also done my own work before purchasing high value items as a lot of people are out to trick potential buyers. I'll say this I have seen this happen before and often not just from this dealer but several others too.

Edited May 4 by timguerrero

[Unstoppablejayd]

I much prefer when the dealer doesn’t know the other way (thinks it isn’t published or doesn’t know who the artist is )  

but seriously this one was a mistake - but I do  agree that a little more diligence isn’t a bad thing, but dealers that take consignments probably just regurgitate the info given. FYI the buyer (not me) did know before completing the purchase. 

[mister_not_so_nice]

Sellers overstating the upside and minimizing everything else to sell a page? Shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

 

Personally, I think it's a good price for a 7 panel splash page 

[Dr. Balls]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:14 AM, timguerrero said:

As a buyer I've also done my own work before purchasing high value items as a lot of people are out to trick potential buyers. I'll say this I have seen this happen before and often not just from this dealer but several others too.

Plus, a part of you has to be able to accept that a piece may be gone by the time you do your due diligence. I can recall two pieces just in the past 6 monhts that didn't stick around long enough for me to do my due diligence (one was gone within minutes while I was actually doing research on it right before I was going to buy it). Win some, lose some.

And I agree with @mister_not_so_nice - I thought that was a pretty good page at that price, with each panel representing Nightcrawler.

Edited May 4 by Dr. Balls

[Sooners151]

Who the heck thought that was a good buy?!  ;-)  

But Glen legitimately thought it was Cockrum when I initially reached out.  I did some fast research and figured out who it was inked by.  I did let Glen know, and we came to amicable terms.  Happy with the transaction!  

I was on a Night Crawler kick from X-Men 97 and didn't mind a little premium on a nice piece.  You should be happy, Brian. You have some great perceived comps for the pages you own!

Also, I haven't posted on the CGC forums in a LONG time... I'm James S on CAF!

Cheers dudes! 

[Ted_L]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:26 PM, Sooners151 said:

Who the heck thought that was a good buy?!  ;-)  

But Glen legitimately thought it was Cockrum when I initially reached out.  I did some fast research and figured out who it was inked by.  I did let Glen know, and we came to amicable terms.  Happy with the transaction!  

I was on a Night Crawler kick from X-Men 97 and didn't mind a little premium on a nice piece.  You should be happy, Brian. You have some great perceived comps for the pages you own!

Also, I haven't posted on the CGC forums in a LONG time... I'm James S on CAF!

Cheers dudes! 

Congrats on picking up that great Nightcrawler page!  I was really admiring that.  I'm a big Cockrum fan and I don't think the fact that Rubinstein inked it materially affects the value very much.

As a general rule (not specific to this piece), I always recommend trying to double-check credits, with the caveat that GCD (comics.org) isn't always accurate.  I've spotted some really egregious errors on there over the years, but it's definitely better than nothing. 

[Shaun Hill]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:26 AM, Sooners151 said:

Who the heck thought that was a good buy?!  ;-)  

But Glen legitimately thought it was Cockrum when I initially reached out.  I did some fast research and figured out who it was inked by.  I did let Glen know, and we came to amicable terms.  Happy with the transaction!  

I was on a Night Crawler kick from X-Men 97 and didn't mind a little premium on a nice piece.  You should be happy, Brian. You have some great perceived comps for the pages you own!

Also, I haven't posted on the CGC forums in a LONG time... I'm James S on CAF!

Cheers dudes! 

I thought it was a good purchase.  Congratulations on bringing this one home. Regardless of who the inker was, in my mind, Cockrum was reason enough to grab.  As I am looking at pieces from him in comparison to his contemporaries, this seemed like a really nice example at a fair price.

[Xatari]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:28 PM, Shaun Hill said:

I thought it was a good purchase.  Congratulations on bringing this one home. Regardless of who the inker was, in my mind, Cockrum was reason enough to grab.  As I am looking at pieces from him in comparison to his contemporaries, this seemed like a really nice example at a fair price.

Same.  Awesome grab @Sooners151.  I only own one page by Dave Cockrum, but it's one of my favorites I have picked up in the last several years.  

[Dr. Balls]

On 5/4/2024 at 11:26 AM, Sooners151 said:

Also, I haven't posted on the CGC forums in a LONG time... I'm James S on CAF!

This is one gallery worth perusing. That Firestar cover is awesome!

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

I guess I must've experienced misrepresentation because I've seen a piece or two described as being primarily the work of lesser artists (when I owned them), only to see the same pieces, described by the same people, as being primarily the work of greater artists (after I sold them).  Gotta figure one description or the other was off.

Edited May 6 by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

[Shaun Hill]

On 5/5/2024 at 7:33 PM, Dr. Balls said:

This is one gallery worth perusing. That Firestar cover is awesome!

Thank you for the link.  That is quite the gallery!