Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[electricprune]

On 8/23/2024 at 7:22 PM, Palm Beach Presser said:

As a comic presser, I need CGC to succeed and rely on their ability to uphold their reputation as THE source for accurate grading.  Unfortunately, I received my own modern submissions of pressed books back this week and 6 out of 50 had significant and noticeable new spine creases that are not appropriate for the 9.8/9.6 grades received. Almost all inner wells had some identifiable bend but not all books had obvious damage (at this time). The bending wells are exacerbating inherent weaknesses in some spines and sometimes causing new color breaks (or texture changes) at those spine bends.  

This leads to many concerns not the least of which is that if this issue is not resolved quickly there will be a lot of books in 9.8 and 9.6 cases that are not worthy of those grades which will severely impact the credibility of CGC.  Books that did not have color breaks are being permanently damaged by these bent wells - the way the light reflects off the books can be repaired in most scenarios, the color breaks and texture changes in cardstock covers will be persistent.

From a personal standpoint, how will my customers feel about my work - which I take tremendous pride in - if they receive books back from CGC that look like the books that I received back this week?  Would you use me again?  I felt that it was necessary to share my own experience with my submission with my customers so they are aware and give consideration to the current situation before submitting at this time even though it will obviously impact my workload and financial health. I care about my reputation as a reliable, skilled presser and want my customers to be happy with the service that I (and CGC) provide. 

I am praying that CGC takes this as the most serious risk to their company and puts all effort into resolving this as soon as possible.  I look forward to telling my customers that it is safe to submit books again.    

Ron, The PalmBeachPresser

I know not all books are graded to be sold, but you would think CGC would not want these books out on the street trading hands. They are listed on eBay  and other popular auction sites for anyone to see. And when you see them in hand, they are even worse.

[Stefan_W]

On 8/23/2024 at 7:22 PM, Palm Beach Presser said:

As a comic presser, I need CGC to succeed and rely on their ability to uphold their reputation as THE source for accurate grading.  Unfortunately, I received my own modern submissions of pressed books back this week and 6 out of 50 had significant and noticeable new spine creases that are not appropriate for the 9.8/9.6 grades received. Almost all inner wells had some identifiable bend but not all books had obvious damage (at this time). The bending wells are exacerbating inherent weaknesses in some spines and sometimes causing new color breaks (or texture changes) at those spine bends.  

This leads to many concerns not the least of which is that if this issue is not resolved quickly there will be a lot of books in 9.8 and 9.6 cases that are not worthy of those grades which will severely impact the credibility of CGC.  Books that did not have color breaks are being permanently damaged by these bent wells - the way the light reflects off the books can be repaired in most scenarios, the color breaks and texture changes in cardstock covers will be persistent.

From a personal standpoint, how will my customers feel about my work - which I take tremendous pride in - if they receive books back from CGC that look like the books that I received back this week?  Would you use me again?  I felt that it was necessary to share my own experience with my submission with my customers so they are aware and give consideration to the current situation before submitting at this time even though it will obviously impact my workload and financial health. I care about my reputation as a reliable, skilled presser and want my customers to be happy with the service that I (and CGC) provide. 

I am praying that CGC takes this as the most serious risk to their company and puts all effort into resolving this as soon as possible.  I look forward to telling my customers that it is safe to submit books again.    

Ron, The PalmBeachPresser

 

I press comics for friends and have a long waiting list of people who want to use my pressing services, and I spent a good part of today talking with those people about the curved well issue. I do not for a second believe anyone thinks the ticks are due to lack of care on my part - that is clearly the bend in the inner well causing previously fixed ticks to look bad again. The books were the grade on the case at the point of grading, but something is going horribly wrong during encapsulation. This leaves me in a bind since I do rely on CGC providing a quality product both to keep my customer base happy and to continue to make comic cash by cracking and resubbing books. When the 9.2s and 9.4s I crack and turn into 9.8s look like 9.2s and 9.4s again I have a big problem. I have now suspended submitting modern books with CGC until I am satisfied the issue has been resolved. I hate doing this because I have loved my experiences with CGC to this point in time, I think they have a great staff, and I really do want to continue using them. 

In case anyone is interested, here is a rough breakdown of how my conversations with people who use me to press and submit to CGC reacted to the curved well stuff.

- One friend didn't care and would have continued to submit to CGC if it was an option. He figures most people don't care about a small bend and he certainly does not sweat it.

- One friend has gone completely silent and has refused to answer my messages. Knowing him he is extremely angry and doesn't want to say what he wants to say to me. 

- One acquaintance is a particular fellow, and it was not a surprise to me that he went down the "CGC is destroying my books" road. He is the only one who did that. 

- The rest of the people (about 80-90%) had the same reaction, which I will not go into detail about on this board. But the general sense I get is that if CGC figures they can carry on ignoring the issue and complaints, offering no restitution, and providing a product that makes people's books look worse than when they were sent in, without an impact to the size of their customer base they are sorely mistaken especially with new options opening up just around the corner.  

Edited August 24 by Stefan_W

[LordRahl]

On 8/23/2024 at 5:21 PM, Stefan_W said:

 

I press comics for friends and have a long waiting list of people who want to use my pressing services, and I spent a good part of today talking with those people about the curved well issue. I do not for a second believe anyone thinks the ticks are due to lack of care on my part - that is clearly the bend in the inner well causing previously fixed ticks to look bad again. The books were the grade on the case at the point of grading, but something is going horribly wrong during encapsulation. This leaves me in a bind since I do rely on CGC providing a quality product both to keep my customer base happy and to continue to make comic cash by cracking and resubbing books. When the 9.2s and 9.4s I crack and turn into 9.8s look like 9.2s and 9.4s again I have a big problem. I have now suspended submitting modern books with CGC until I am satisfied the issue has been resolved. I hate doing this because I have loved my experiences with CGC to this point in time, and I really do want to continue using them. 

In case anyone is interested, here is a rough breakdown of how my conversations with people who use me to press and submit to CGC reacted to the curved well stuff.

- One friend didn't care and would have continued to submit to CGC if it was an option. He figures most people don't care about a small bend and he certainly does not sweat it.

- One friend has gone completely silent and has refused to answer my messages. Knowing him he is extremely angry and doesn't want to say what he wants to say to me. 

- One acquaintance is a particular fellow, and it was not a surprise to me that he went down the "CGC is destroying my books" road.

- The rest of the people (about 80-90%) had the same reaction, which I will not go into detail about on this board. But the general sense I get is that if CGC figures they can carry on without an impact to the size of their customer base they are sorely mistaken, especially with new options opening up just around the corner.  

Their submissions are already being impacted, they just don't know it yet. It will get worse the longer they wait to fix the issue. I already have a short box full that would have been submitted and is currently sitting in a holding pattern. If this isn't fixed before the new guys start accepting submissions, it's going to the new guys. By then, the short box will likely be more like 5 short boxes. I know that by itself is a drop in the bucket but multiply that by the amount of people just in this thread that have stopped submitting and pretty soon, it will be noticeable.

[Stefan_W]

On 8/23/2024 at 8:30 PM, LordRahl said:

Their submissions are already being impacted, they just don't know it yet. It will get worse the longer they wait to fix the issue. I already have a short box full that would have been submitted and is currently sitting in a holding pattern. If this isn't fixed before the new guys start accepting submissions, it's going to the new guys. By then, the short box will likely be more like 5 short boxes. I know that by itself is a drop in the bucket but multiply that by the amount of people just in this thread that have stopped submitting and pretty soon, it will be noticeable.

Edit - sorry, misunderstood your point.

Agreed.

Edited August 24 by Stefan_W

[MAY1979]

On 8/23/2024 at 6:27 PM, CVCollector said:

I am a newbie with CGC.  I just got back my first submission of 10.  They all came back with the bends.  I'll go back to raws.

[MAY1979]

  

On 8/23/2024 at 8:30 PM, LordRahl said:

Their submissions are already being impacted, they just don't know it yet. It will get worse the longer they wait to fix the issue. I already have a short box full that would have been submitted and is currently sitting in a holding pattern. If this isn't fixed before the new guys start accepting submissions, it's going to the new guys. By then, the short box will likely be more like 5 short boxes. I know that by itself is a drop in the bucket but multiply that by the amount of people just in this thread that have stopped submitting and pretty soon, it will be noticeable.

You submit a few thousand books per year yet seemingly your business means nothing to CGC.  JoeyPost who is huge submitter and influencer has alluded to not being affected thus logically wont be taking up the fight. Then factor what is going on in the  "current turn around rates at CGC" thread in General, folks there seem blissfully unaware of the issue or if they do then perhaps cognitive dissonance As long as the subs keep a comin' it will be a very long time before anything is done.

Those who desire the issue to be resolved so they can submit again need to realize at current point in time CGC is "stating no issue exists" and "it's normal", therefore change simply ain't on the horizon.

A seismic shift  has occurred  for those who sell slabs.  LordRahl, @Palm Beach Presser if not already in progress, you may want to begin creating a new business model. 

Collectors need to adapt as well. I seek out only older slabs, and am going after Original Art and Pre-World War I (yes 1) baseball cards. As well as more business to eGerber, Bill Cole (the new clear Mylar backing boards) , and BCW for supplies to nicely "display" my raw's and keep them flat.

 

Edited August 24 by MAR1979

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 8/23/2024 at 4:22 PM, Palm Beach Presser said:

The bending wells are exacerbating inherent weaknesses in some spines and sometimes causing new color breaks (or texture changes) at those spine bends.  

 

[Berkfam54]

At some point there has got to be a post on their socials and website about the issue and how they’re going to resolve it. Whether that’s refunding everybody or buying people new books or pressing and re slabbing it for free. There has got to be something they can do overall. Feels like they’re not doing anything right now to save face. 
 

I just emailed cgc’s service team about my issues with my 3 books. What stinks is my 5 book submission I received - the 3 effected were all the 9.8’s - the 2 9.6’s were not effected I don’t think or at least as bad. 

[Stefan_W]

On 8/23/2024 at 9:16 PM, MAR1979 said:

 

A seismic shift  has occurred  for those who sell slabs. 

 

This has not happened yet, but it may in the future. One or two dozen people posting in this thread are not going to shift the market, but over time as people start to see things wrong with their slabs they will seek out information and eventually figure out that the bend is a consistent issue with recent modern slabs. 

For perspective, I avoid buying books encased in those thin blue label slabs that were used years ago because I find them overgraded compared to today's standards. No one else cares, and even though some of those books do not at all look like the grade on the slab people still snap them up. The market is an odd place sometimes and it is hard to predict what will have an impact. 

[Tnexus]

Rumor has it CGC is changing their company name to "Curved Graded Comics".

[Stuk]

On 8/23/2024 at 11:02 PM, Stefan_W said:

This has not happened yet, but it may in the future. One or two dozen people posting in this thread are not going to shift the market, but over time as people start to see things wrong with their slabs they will seek out information and eventually figure out that the bend is a consistent issue with recent modern slabs. 

For perspective, I avoid buying books encased in those thin blue label slabs that were used years ago because I find them overgraded compared to today's standards. No one else cares, and even though some of those books do not at all look like the grade on the slab people still snap them up. The market is an odd place sometimes and it is hard to predict what will have an impact. 

As has been mentioned sporadically here, big sellers/auction houses will increasingly have to deal with unhappy customers seeking to return their fresh-from-CGC modern 9.8s (whose bowed inner well-caused flaws that were not detectible from sales photos). The auction houses are selling thousands of products that are really not merchantable or fit for their particular purpose. Ultimately, and perhaps more speedily, this should get CGCs attention compared to individual, larger volume submitters, no? That said, I am certain that CGC at least monthly (possibly quarterly) crunches its numbers to compare to the prior quarter or month and will start to see trends indicating not that there is problem -- they already know that-- but how big it is and how it may be affecting their $. (The CFO will get involved. Watch out.)  And that is the rub and what is surely causing so much of the anger and frustration (beyond the actual bowing, of course). It's not that there is a problem (stuff happens), but that it is known, has been known for half a year and seemingly nothing is being done (not a process change, not a public statement or acknowledgement, etc.). 

[Stefan_W]

On 8/24/2024 at 11:11 AM, Stuk said:

As has been mentioned sporadically here, big sellers/auction houses will increasingly have to deal with unhappy customers seeking to return their fresh-from-CGC modern 9.8s (whose bowed inner well-caused flaws that were not detectible from sales photos). The auction houses are selling thousands of products that are really not merchantable or fit for their particular purpose. Ultimately, and perhaps more speedily, this should get CGCs attention compared to individual, larger volume submitters, no? That said, I am certain that CGC at least monthly (possibly quarterly) crunches its numbers to compare to the prior quarter or month and will start to see trends indicating not that there is problem -- they already know that-- but how big it is and how it may be affecting their $. (The CFO will get involved. Watch out.)  And that is the rub and what is surely causing so much of the anger and frustration (beyond the actual bowing, of course). It's not that there is a problem (stuff happens), but that it is known, has been known for half a year and seemingly nothing is being done (not a process change, not a public statement or acknowledgement, etc.). 

I think the sentence I bolded is 100% spot on. 

I doubt auction houses are seeing waves of people asking for returns but I can ask to see if that is the case. If slabs were coming back en masse to those auction houses we would be hearing about it, and at the very least they would not longer be accepting impacted slabs. That is not the case right now. Whatever is happening is within the tolerance of what auction houses accept as a part of taking a commission for selling. 

Also, people buy slabs for different reasons. Some put them up on their wall, some buy books from their youth and store them away, and some do it to resell. I typically buy slabs for crack and resubs, and I bought many slabs starting with 44 prior to knowing about the bend issue. I had the same success rate with getting grade bumps on those as with the older ones, which is part of why I have been banging the drum that the bend is not damaging books as far as I can see. I even bought a bunch more recent moderns to crack and resub after knowing about the bend issue because it has no impact on the process of trying to get a grade bump. So different strokes for different folks. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 8/24/2024 at 8:32 AM, Stefan_W said:

which is part of why I have been banging the drum that the bend is not damaging books as far as I can see.

 

On 8/24/2024 at 8:32 AM, Stefan_W said:

I even bought a bunch more recent moderns to crack and resub after knowing about the bend issue because it has no impact on the process of trying to get a grade bump. So different strokes for different folks. 

[VinceVellCUSTOMS]

Hay guys, well never posted here before just more of a lurker, I been doing graded books for years and I only get stuff slabbed for my display room and books I love. Past 3 years I been selling off my long boxes of comics and just getting stuff graded for my collection and signed stuff for display. Friend of mine wanted to send in his transformers books last month so I sent in 4 Artgerm power girls as well for a pre screen. Now when we sent these books in they were all mint as we both are crazy about super mint books etc We went thru all the books, picked out the best ones and packed extremely well. If we had known there was a bend issue we would not have sent them in, but I just got them in yesterday and well pretty much the 11 books have bend warp issues with some major creases. Now when I was sending in books in 2021, 22 and 23 i never got any of these issues, the spines were always straight in the cases, but this batch the books are all warped. Its almost as someone is man handling the books out of the boxes or the inner wells are to tight now and as they shove them into the square case it bows the books to fit, thats my theory cause I own lots of older CGC case and the "other" company books back to 2013 and all the books spines are perfectly straight in the cases. No warps at all. this is for sure a new and horrible issue. I cant get all the pictures of the books, but my 4 power girl books show how they must have bent them out of the box and it shows that the bend lines up with all 9 our of 11 books that we submitted. 

But none of the books have a straight spine, all the books are curved from the side. I pulled out some of my 2022 and early 2023 books I had graded and all the spines in those cases are perfectly straight just to compare and see if im going crazy about this new debacle going on. 

 

 

[Berkfam54]

Unreal man I’m so sorry 

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/24/2024 at 10:41 AM, VinceVellCUSTOMS said:

Hay guys, well never posted here before just more of a lurker, I been doing graded books for years and I only get stuff slabbed for my display room and books I love. Past 3 years I been selling off my long boxes of comics and just getting stuff graded for my collection and signed stuff for display. Friend of mine wanted to send in his transformers books last month so I sent in 4 Artgerm power girls as well for a pre screen. Now when we sent these books in they were all mint as we both are crazy about super mint books etc We went thru all the books, picked out the best ones and packed extremely well. If we had known there was a bend issue we would not have sent them in, but I just got them in yesterday and well pretty much the 11 books have bend warp issues with some major creases. Now when I was sending in books in 2021, 22 and 23 i never got any of these issues, the spines were always straight in the cases, but this batch the books are all warped. Its almost as someone is man handling the books out of the boxes or the inner wells are to tight now and as they shove them into the square case it bows the books to fit, thats my theory cause I own lots of older CGC case and the "other" company books back to 2013 and all the books spines are perfectly straight in the cases. No warps at all. this is for sure a new and horrible issue. I cant get all the pictures of the books, but my 4 power girl books show how they must have bent them out of the box and it shows that the bend lines up with all 9 our of 11 books that we submitted. 

But none of the books have a straight spine, all the books are curved from the side. I pulled out some of my 2022 and early 2023 books I had graded and all the spines in those cases are perfectly straight just to compare and see if im going crazy about this new debacle going on. 

 

 

I'm so sorry this happened. And I applaud your taste in covers.

[joeypost]

I have a small group of books coming back this week. All moderns with shiny covers that will easily show defects if held in a bent well. I’ll post results once I have a chance to inspect them. 

[MAY1979]

On 8/24/2024 at 12:41 PM, VinceVellCUSTOMS said:

Sadly this is becoming the standard narrative.  Not only Comics are being damaged but memories are being destroyed as well as hobby interest.

Edited August 24 by MAY1979

[kcm54]

From what I see here and in my own submissions this does not seem to be a process problem.  It's not everyone and seems to come in batches, which says it's not systemic. 

Instead it's a personnel problem and maybe a management problem.  CGC's business has grown rapidly at a time where every labor-intensive business has had staffing problems.  Either they are trying to do more with fewer people or they are hiring the wrong people.  Or maybe management isn't what it should be.

[Stefan_W]

FedEx just delivered my 8 book high value submission that came back from CGC and every inner well is straight as an arrow. 

Up until now I figured that the bend was from cooling after the case was sealed up, but I no longer think this is the story (at least not the whole story). The high value submission cases are sealed up just like the moderns without anything bad happening. There is a difference since these are older books that are slightly wider so they may use a different stock of plastic for them. Anyway, I am no longer thinking this is process-related. 

I have a submission of moderns in grading and another one where the box should be opened Mon or Tues so I can share whether the bending is continuing. There is a mix of crack and resubs from slabs that started with 44 sprinkled in both of those submission so I can also share whether I was able to get the normal amount of grade bumps. 

Edited August 24 by Stefan_W