Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 23 23

[aszumilo]

On 9/6/2024 at 11:50 AM, CGC Mike said:

We have found that our next-largest well size does not exhibit this slight curve and have started to use that well in lieu of our smallest size.

Translation - We don't see a problem, but, we're going to stop using the inner wells that have this problem.

How to admit there is a problem without admitting there is a problem.

[MadGenius]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:18 PM, Rich_Henn said:

I have to respectfully disagree with CGC Mike.  I can show you multiple damaged books in the slabs, as can other facilitators as well as customers.  These curved wells are in fact, damaging the books.  I've seen it, clients have seen it, and it needs to be resolved.  It's happening slowly---slabs that I received back initially looked fine, but three weeks after the fact, you could see spine stress that was not there.  The pressure inside the slabs is causing applied pressure and there by stress to the spines.  The sky is blue, not green.  This is a relatively new phenomenon and looking back, it only seems to have started after CGC started sonicly sealing all four edges so tight that only a hammer could break them out.

 

Thanks for weighing in, Rich. CGC clearly is not interested in listening to the little guys, so it's going to take the big dealers and facilitators who push a lot of business CGC's way to effect substantial change.

[Rich_Henn]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:22 PM, MadGenius said:

Thanks for weighing in, Rich. CGC clearly is not interested in listening to the little guys, so it's going to take the big dealers and facilitators who push a lot of business CGC's way to effect substantial change.

I appreciate that---but even as an OG facilitator with 20+ years, I too feel like I'm screaming into a hurricane sometimes.  After a while your voice hurts and you stop screaming.  I didn't submit books at all between November and April (or May?) of this year for a LOT of reasons.  But the last straw for me personally was when a year ago I received an entire case of slabs that had scuffs and scratches, wanted to send them back, and was told this was "minor scuffs or scratches are acceptable due to the high clarity nature of the slab."   That's like saying the car that I got off the lot brand new had a tail light that didn't work, but that's "acceptable."  I felt like my concerns were marginalized and trivialized, so I just stopped sending in personal books.  That was the last straw on top of a few other things, but that was it for me. 

Louder voices and deeper pockets than mine is what will eventually move the needle.  

Edited September 6 by Rich_Henn

[Rich_Henn]

OH!  One piece of advice (if I may).

TAKE PICTURES OF YOUR BOOKS PRIOR TO SENDING THEM IN.

This is going to be the only way you can dispute the damage to your books if they appear damaged in the slab.  This happened to me about a year ago, and I was asked if I had pictures.  On all submissions moving forward, I take pics of all the books so that I can have something to back up the claim that spine stress currently present was not present when I sent it in.  Take images of the books as they sit next to your submission form.  You have images of the book (each book) with the submission so it acts as a date and you can show you didn't take the image a year ago or something.

[greggy]

Opened another box today.

Like the last one, all the ones with wedges had it on the spine side.

I still see the slight curve on some of the slabs but I didn't really look at all of them.

Despite this, I didn't see any new spine issues introduced in any of my slabs especially on all my 9.8s which included some with no wedges.

The only ones which I saw some spine breaks were books that graded lower like a 9.0 and 9.4 sprinkled in there so it would be acceptable in the grade.

Like I stated, I'll get an order on Monday that shows that no wedges were used but these are all Marvels from 77-79.  I'll report on that box once I received it.

xoxo

greggy

[wiparker824]

On 9/6/2024 at 11:50 AM, CGC Mike said:

Hi all

I have not read today's posts yet, as I am on vacation.  Here is a new statement that I have been given to post.

We have seen reports that some of the soft-plastic wells used inside of the CGC holder exhibit a curve when viewed from the side. After learning of this, we conducted an extensive review and found that the smallest well size, which is used for the thinnest comic books, is more pliable than other wells and, in some cases, will exhibit a slight curve.

Importantly, this curve does not cause any damage to the comic book, and it does not affect the grade in any way. The angle of bend required to create a stress line simply cannot be done within the CGC holder. In addition, very high grade comic books can still exhibit minimal stress lines according to CGC’s official grading standards.

We do not consider this slight curve to be a mechanical error that requires reholdering. Still, we are always listening and want to serve our customers the best way we can. We have found that our next-largest well size does not exhibit this slight curve and have started to use that well in lieu of our smallest size.

We appreciate all of the feedback from our community, and we are grateful to be the hobby’s first choice for grading for nearly 25 years. Many of us are collectors too, and we care deeply about the services that we provide. If you have any comments, questions or concerns, please write to us at Service@CGCcomics.com or call or text us at +1-855-GRADE10.

So let me get this straight. 

Your inner wells caused the bends. But they don’t cause the stress lines many have posted as examples. But also you’re telling us stress lines are allowed in high grades which seems weird to add to a statement in which you’ve already made the bold claim that the bends of these defective wells aren’t causing stress lines. 

Then we go on to say that even though we’re not causing stress lines, and these are allowed in high grade anyways, we don’t think it’s worthy of a ME. BUT we’re changing out the defective wells going forward anyways. So it’s a big enough problem to trash your existing inventory of these defective wells (likely a lot) but it’s also actually not a problem at all for all of the thousands of books we’ve already slabbed with these wells as they never caused damage, no reason for ME.

Wow.

 

[Sauce Dog]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:28 PM, Rich_Henn said:

I appreciate that---but even as an OG facilitator with 20+ years, I too feel like I'm screaming into a hurricane sometimes.  After a while your voice hurts and you stop screaming.  I didn't submit books at all between November and April (or May?) of this year for a LOT of reasons.  But the last straw for me personally was when a year ago I received an entire case of slabs that had scuffs and scratches, wanted to send them back, and was told this was "minor scuffs or scratches are acceptable due to the high clarity nature of the slab."   That's like saying the car that I got off the lot brand new had a tail light that didn't work, but that's "acceptable."  I felt like my concerns were marginalized and trivialized, so I just stopped sending in personal books.  That was the last straw on top of a few other things, but that was it for me. 

Louder voices and deeper pockets than mine is what will eventually move the needle.  

I appreciate you speaking up on this, as it is clear you handle lots of books as well and are very visible in the community. A voice like yours would do wonders on the CGC Comic Fans Facebook group, as anytime any of us other lowly collectors post something even remotely critical about this issue we get the mods insulting us and saying it isn't an issue because THEY haven't had any books themselves impacted (I've seen them accuse people of 'not being real CGC fans', 'hypocrites', or 'not real comic book collectors' and other ad hominem insults in the comments)

Edited September 6 by Sauce Dog

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:08 PM, lollyclown said:

I'm sorry, and you seem like a really nice guy with a good reputation, but this is entirely bull****.

I think you need to focus on this part of Mike's post:

On 9/6/2024 at 2:50 PM, CGC Mike said:

Here is a new statement that I have been given to post.

I'm reading this as Mike disavowing himself from the content of the message. We have the email address and the number to text. We should probably all start letting them know more directly. (Those that have not done so yet, anyway.)

[lollyclown]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:36 PM, greggy said:

Opened another box today.

Like the last one, all the ones with wedges had it on the spine side.

I still see the slight curve on some of the slabs but I didn't really look at all of them.

Despite this, I didn't see any new spine issues introduced in any of my slabs especially on all my 9.8s which included some with no wedges.

The only ones which I saw some spine breaks were books that graded lower like a 9.0 and 9.4 sprinkled in there so it would be acceptable in the grade.

Like I stated, I'll get an order on Monday that shows that no wedges were used but these are all Marvels from 77-79.  I'll report on that box once I received it.

xoxo

greggy

The problem is though, the damage may not show up for some period of time. What appears to be happening is it's a case of applied pressure versus the initial bend itself causing the damage. A small amount of applied pressure to just about anything will eventually cause enough stress to cause damages. Be at a slight man to a comic book or the leg of a chair that has more weight on it because of being in properly crafted.

Like when you buy a print or a poster, if it's only rolled up in the tube for a couple days it's relatively easy to flatten, but you leave it in that tube for a month and it becomes a different story.

Or another example, the slow study pressure cgc's lack of care is putting on its customers. Eventually damage will show.

I'm very curious to see what these books look like in a couple of weeks or a month. Hopefully nothing happens to them because I don't want you to have damaged books, but this is a situation where it is most likely not going to show up immediately.

[HotKey]

[lollyclown]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:01 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I think you need to focus on this part of Mike's post:

I'm reading this as Mike disavowing himself from the content of the message. We have the email address and the number to text. We should probably all start letting them know more directly. (Those that have not done so yet, anyway.)

I wish you would have included the rest of what I had to say, because this is what it said. 

Quote

I'm sorry they put you in a position that leads to you being the one who gets dumped on when this is clearly not your fault and you try to do your best with us.

 

I'm not blaming Mike at all. I think they put him in an awful position, which is what I said 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

I think we all need to step back and maybe spend the weekend thinking about something besides comics. Maybe spend the weekend listening to some music. Might I suggest this classic?:

[lollyclown]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:45 PM, Sauce Dog said:

I appreciate you speaking up on this, as it is clear you handle lots of books as well and are very visible in the community. A voice like yours would do wonders on the CGC Comic Fans Facebook group, as anytime any of us other lowly collectors post something even remotely critical about this issue we get the mods insulting us and saying it isn't an issue because THEY haven't had any books themselves impacted (I've seen them accuse people of 'not being real CGC fans', 'hypocrites', or 'not real comic book collectors' and other ad hominem insults in the comments)

Holy I hate that group. I posted in there about the screw up with my lost book, and being sent the right case for it but with somebody else's book and had multiple people jump on me and tell me I'm in the wrong place and I'm not a "CGC fan".

I even had one tool tell me I should be happy because I got a better more valuable book in "minty" condition with a more sought after and rare signature.

All of which were entirely wrong

My book was 300, the book I got was literally a 20 dollar raw, not a key and in much worse condition, and it was signed by Glynis Oliver who was at the same exact signing

Plus even suggesting that I should keep the book because it was better is really messed up. I blocked the insufficiently_thoughtful_person, deleted the post and left the group

[lollyclown]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:19 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I think we all need to step back and maybe spend the weekend thinking about something besides comics. Maybe spend the weekend listening to some music. Might I suggest this classic?:

Nice. I actually have been listening to OK Computer while I've been doing some drawing today.

Edited September 6 by lollyclown

[Stefan_W]

On 9/6/2024 at 5:00 PM, Poutine said:

You're delusional. Books are being damaged by the company grading them, and its happening post grading.

Period.

 

I've never been called delusional before by someone who literally repeated most of what I was saying. Thanks for that, it will make tonight's beer go down even better.

My point of separation is not that some books are being sent back damaged - that clearly has happened. My point is that without identifying the right problem it is almost impossible to find a solution that solves that problem, and so I focus a lot of attention on what the cause of that damage actually is.  

Edited September 6 by Stefan_W

[MAY1979]

My response to the statement is best said by Flatt and Scuggs; "California's The Place I Oughta Be"

Or by Robert Plant ;  "I'm goin' to California with an aching in my heart"

 

Edited September 6 by MAY1979

[VintageComics]

You're all conspiracy theorists. 

[mikenyc]

On 9/6/2024 at 5:55 PM, VintageComics said:

You're all conspiracy theorists. 

Comes with the territory I suppose, lol.

[VintageComics]

On 9/6/2024 at 5:56 PM, mikenyc said:

On 9/6/2024 at 5:55 PM, VintageComics said:

You're all conspiracy theorists. 

Comes with the territory I suppose, lol.

Just a poke because I endured years of being called that on here, was given strikes for posting too often in threads and even got banned from the WC for following facts like a hawk so it's just interesting to see when people get their bee in a bonnet about something with similar laser focus. 

Edited September 6 by VintageComics

[MadGenius]

CGC is doubling down on "the curve is normal" line and their arrogance in this matter is baffling. They think they are too big to fail and that the sheep will continue to send books in for grading NO MATTER WHAT. The biggest advantage that CGC has in this space is they are (currently) recognized as the market leader and thus CGC graded books sell at a premium compared to other companies. That competitive advantage is on the verge of disappearing. As more people in the community get wise to the situation and CGC's frankly ridiculous reponse they will quickly decide they no longer trust the company and will stop buying CGC slabs. As soon as that happens, CGC is DONE. 

CGC had a chance to do the right thing here and completely blew it.