Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 23 23

[MAY1979]

On 9/8/2024 at 1:43 PM, Stuk said:

I cannot tell from the search string, but those numbers, ideally, should exclude 1) vintage (for the most part), 2) books that are below 9.4 (maybe? because the look or grade is barely if at all affected?), 3) books that are "newly" slabbed but still before mid 2023 (?), and 4) any books, modern or otherwise, that simply are not bowed (there apparently are some). Not knocking the point, just suggesting a refinement.

Your are technically correct!  I will update my original comment when CGC replaces my 9.8 1/1's with true  9.8's of those same books, or remunerates me for the books + emotional distress.   My guess is that occurs half past never.

Edited September 8 by MAY1979

[Skytripa]

On 9/8/2024 at 11:48 AM, Carl’s Comics said:

CGC just reached out to me to send pics!  Fingers crossed they can make it right.  I will keep everyone posted.

Just a tip but if you do send them in. I would get painters tape and point to the issues. Also write ticket number for reference. The CS agent might agree with you but person that looks at book when received could reject ME because they see nothing wrong.

[VintageComics]

On 9/8/2024 at 10:34 AM, Carl’s Comics said:

Before — pressed and cleaned 

 

After— CGC bending

 

Sent two emails to CGC…no response.  
 

Being someone who only sells a few books here and there to fund the hobby this is not acceptable.  Plus, just sad.  This book was immaculate before.

To play devil's advocate and to be completely transparent, you can actually see slight, white spine ticks in the 1st photo, at all the spots you see spine ticks in the 2nd photo. It clearly looks like there was already some weakness in those areas that was there previous to slabbing. 

 

EDIT: Just saw that others have stated the same thing. 

Edited September 8 by VintageComics

[0r0d]

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/8/2024 at 2:51 PM, 0r0d said:

 

[Stefan_W]

On 9/8/2024 at 5:51 PM, 0r0d said:

 

Holy click bait titles, Batman. 

[MAY1979]

On 9/8/2024 at 6:44 PM, Stefan_W said:

Holy click bait titles, Batman. 

I keep a deny list on my router to prevent playing of videos (not a domain block) on for sites like youtube and others  etc... However I'm strongly thinking of temporarily disabling as that title is true. 

We all get your OPINION however I have had books with new color breaking damage introduced by the banana bends.  At least be a true scientist and be open to the possibility that your "data" is not 100% accurate. 

Edited September 8 by MAY1979

[MAY1979]

On 9/8/2024 at 5:51 PM, 0r0d said:

 

TRUTH!

[DanJD]

I love it when YouTube content creators mock YouTube content creators

Edited September 8 by DanJD

[0r0d]

On 9/8/2024 at 3:44 PM, Stefan_W said:

Holy click bait titles, Batman. 

I can see why you might say that, but the other side of the argument is that even without spine ticks or bends, having the book be bent (seemingly permanent bend by the looks of it) is already damage to the book.  Yes, CGC has admitted that they bend books, but they also claim there's no damage being done.

I would say that even without any VISIBLE damage like ticks, a bend ALWAYS causes damage to a book because it will be tearing the paper fibers at a small scale.  Also, we have to ask what larger bend was put on that book in the first place to cause that small permanent bend.  I mean, if that bend only caused by the inner well being bent that much, or was the entire thing bent to a much larger extent before being put into the slab?

In any case, to me at least, any bend on the book is unacceptable.  And being gaslighted by being told that this is "normal" and "does not damage" the book is part of why people are so upset.

[Stefan_W]

On 9/8/2024 at 7:47 PM, 0r0d said:

I can see why you might say that, but the other side of the argument is that even without spine ticks or bends, having the book be bent (seemingly permanent bend by the looks of it) is already damage to the book.  Yes, CGC has admitted that they bend books, but they also claim there's no damage being done.

I would say that even without any VISIBLE damage like ticks, a bend ALWAYS causes damage to a book because it will be tearing the paper fibers at a small scale.  Also, we have to ask what larger bend was put on that book in the first place to cause that small permanent bend.  I mean, if that bend only caused by the inner well being bent that much, or was the entire thing bent to a much larger extent before being put into the slab?

In any case, to me at least, any bend on the book is unacceptable.  And being gaslighted by being told that this is "normal" and "does not damage" the book is part of why people are so upset.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment, but yes bends are not acceptable. 

My comment was geared more toward using a super flashy title promising big revelations for a video which basically shows that books are bent, which we already know. 

[Stefan_W]

On 9/8/2024 at 7:47 PM, 0r0d said:

I can see why you might say that, but the other side of the argument is that even without spine ticks or bends, having the book be bent (seemingly permanent bend by the looks of it) is already damage to the book.  Yes, CGC has admitted that they bend books, but they also claim there's no damage being done.

I would say that even without any VISIBLE damage like ticks, a bend ALWAYS causes damage to a book because it will be tearing the paper fibers at a small scale.  Also, we have to ask what larger bend was put on that book in the first place to cause that small permanent bend.  I mean, if that bend only caused by the inner well being bent that much, or was the entire thing bent to a much larger extent before being put into the slab?

In any case, to me at least, any bend on the book is unacceptable.  And being gaslighted by being told that this is "normal" and "does not damage" the book is part of why people are so upset.

Actually, I will keep my mind completely open and assume I completely missed something. 

Please give a time stamp for any information beyond "the book is bent" and I will rewatch that part. Could be that I totally missed the shocking revelations. 

[0r0d]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:59 PM, Stefan_W said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment, but yes bends are not acceptable. 

My comment was geared more toward using a super flashy title promising big revelations for a video which basically shows that books are bent, which we already know. 

Ok, sorry then.  I thought your issue with the video was the claim that CGC was lying and the book are indeed being damaged.

Personally I thought the video brings some useful data to this issue.  For example, it's notable that the slab itself didnt appear to be putting pressure on the inner well, and it stayed bent after being taken out.  To me this says there's a high likelihood that the issue is either 1) the process of sealing the book in the inner well, or 2) mishandling of the inner well after it's sealed.  I tend to think it's 2) because I have a feeling that at some point these books get bent to a much bigger angle than what we end up seeing, and THAT causes the damage.  The permanently bent inner well is just the symptom and not the cause.

Edited September 9 by 0r0d

[Stefan_W]

On 9/8/2024 at 8:05 PM, 0r0d said:

Ok, sorry then.  I thought your issue with the video was the claim that CGC was lying and the book are indeed being damaged.

Personally I thought the video brings some useful data to this issue.  For example, it's notable that the slab itself didnt appear to be putting pressure on the inner well, and it stayed bent after being taken out.  To me this says there's a high likelihood that the issue is either 1) the process of sealing in the inner well, or 2) mishandling of the inner well after it's sealed.  I tend to think it's 2) because I have a feeling that at some point these books get bent to a much bigger angle than what we end up seeing, and THAT causes the damage.  The permanently bent inner well is just the symptom and not the cause.

Yeah, the inner well staying bent was covered earlier in the thread and it is super interesting. 

I agree that a very possible cause is that the book was bent more at some point before going in to the inner well. I was hoping the video would get into the measurements of when damage occurs - I was interested to see if he was able to replicate that it takes 2-3X the space available in the inner well for ticks to appear, or at least get into different paper types. If all of this is true it may be that the bend after going in to the inner well but before the book is finalized in the hard outer shell is the culprit. In fact, that is my working theory at the moment. But we dont have enough behind the scenes info to get a final answer. 

[0r0d]

On 9/8/2024 at 5:10 PM, Stefan_W said:

But we dont have enough behind the scenes info to get a final answer. 

Indeed, and probably never will.  

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 9/8/2024 at 12:48 PM, Carl’s Comics said:

CGC just reached out to me to send pics!  Fingers crossed they can make it right.  I will keep everyone posted.

It's great that there's some movement on their part in your situation. But if CGC is going to continue to pretend like the bending of the books is not an issue in general, and only reach out to individuals that have clear "Before" pictures showing that the bending indeed damages the book, then that is going to be a permanent stain on their reputation. (And as we know, stains don't press out.)

[mikenyc]

9.9 Newsstand just posted a video of a split inner well, on his Instagram account. The well has a banana shaped warp. The video was from another comic collector. He says it’s probably a rare occurrence; I hope he’s right. 
 

We don’t need another issue compounding the current one. 
 

 

[Tom789]

Early in my pressing career, (I'm still new, only 2 years in) bends like these originally in my books would come out nicely in my press.  But the slightest pressure in the wrong direction could bring them back.  Perhaps this is part of what we're seeing, and it could be happening before encapsulating by careless or even normal handling?

[lollyclown]

On 9/8/2024 at 11:23 AM, MAY1979 said:

  

You would think Sellers given their nature would not advertise the slabs are new and do whatever they can to draw attention away from that. Instead they boldly state they are newly graded.

  

 

I would assume that the vast majority don't know that there is this problem. I don't think there's a large amount of people intentionally trying to offload garbage. Think about how many people submit per month versus how many people are active on just this board. The main cgc subreddit is small. 

The amount of cgc buyers and sellers who follow them social media has to be a pretty small percentage. Might not hurt to occasionally message some of the larger resellers and let them know.

[Stefan_W]

On 9/8/2024 at 9:04 PM, lollyclown said:

I would assume that the vast majority don't know that there is this problem. I don't think there's a large amount of people intentionally trying to offload garbage. Think about how many people submit per month versus how many people are active on just this board. The main cgc subreddit is small. 

The amount of cgc buyers and sellers who follow them social media has to be a pretty small percentage. Might not hurt to occasionally message some of the larger resellers and let them know.

I just spoke to a seller who deals mostly in CGC slabs and does all the big conventions in the area. He send in a group of books through me for the first time, and I dropped them off last Friday as he was setting up for a Con. I showed him the inner well issues in the books, and filled him in with how long this has been happening. During the conversation I mentioned that he may get questions about his books.

His response to me was quite telling. He told me that he did the largest convention in the area a week or two ago and sold mostly slabs, and not one person brought up the inner well issue to him. No questions, comments, nothing. When I let him know it was the first he was hearing about it. 

It is possible that some people checking out slabs just looked at the side themselves, but I but suspect a majority either do not know or do not care all that much.