Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 24 24

[MAY1979]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:43 PM, bc said:

Just watched your new video 

The observation about variable paper stock & ink impacting the warping was cool.

-bc

Makes sense, the less density the greater the damage.

[bc]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:56 PM, MAY1979 said:

Makes sense, the less density the greater the damage.

Actually, since this seems to be impacting moderns (with the heavier cover stock and better inks) the most visibly, the greater the density would increase the probability of damage.

-bc

[SpineTic]

[electricprune]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:07 PM, bc said:

So I took a sheet of paper and put it on the smoothest surface I could find.

I applied a light but equal pressure to the four corners and it created a parabola which turned into more of a saddle with more force.

I then tried doing the same against the centers of the top/bottom/left/right edges and it formed a single wave.

Again, not really scientific, but an interesting thought exercise.

  Maybe, due to the increased amount of ultrasonic welding to reduce swap-gate, the extra heat at the corners is causing the inner sleeves to expand (dare I say mildly melt?) that permanently changes its size? I haven't cracked out any books with the symptoms shown here to see how tight the inner sleeve actually is compared to the outer shell. If it had a very limited variance before the extra welding, even a thousandth or two expansion would create adequate force to cause the warping.

-bc

I believe most plastics are thermosetting. So, if they are heated and expand or warp, they are going to stay that way.

We now need a structural engineer and a plastics chemist.

[bc]

Question: Compared to the pre-swap-gate slabs, how much more of a percentage of the outer well is now sealed in the warped slabs?

When I watched @Stefan_W video, it looked like the entire edges are now being sealed whereas only spot welding was done before.

Thanks in advance,

-bc

[MAY1979]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:58 PM, bc said:

Actually, since this seems to be impacting moderns (with the heavier cover stock and better inks) the most visibly, the greater the density would increase the probability of damage.

-bc

I do forget there are comics printed after 1990...

 

Edited August 28 by MAY1979

[Stefan_W]

On 8/28/2024 at 5:28 PM, bc said:

Question: Compared to the pre-swap-gate slabs, how much more of a percentage of the outer well is now sealed in the warped slabs?

When I watched @Stefan_W video, it looked like the entire edges are now being sealed whereas only spot welding was done before.

Thanks in advance,

-bc

It is sealed all the way around, but the strength of the seal is not completely consistent. The case I cracked in the video was sealed all the way around, but the seal was so weak that it practically came apart by itself. Other books are like fortresses and you have to do some serious damage to the case to get them out. In both instances the inner well is bent the same, but cant speak to whether it matters in terms of impact on the books inside. 

[0r0d]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:58 PM, Skytripa said:

Not sure if anyone else has done this. When comparing the damage to my books I looked at the online photos that CGC took after encapsulation. I noticed on the book with multiple spine stress their photo does not show anything. So sometime after they took the picture to me getting the book in the mail the damage is there.

I just compared my book with the most serious spine tick to the online CGC photo and it DOES show the same spine tick.  So, it was definitely created by that point soon after encapsulation.   It could still just be a matter of mishandling before the slabbing process, but given so many people have the same issue it doesnt look like mere mishandling is the problem.

This also suggests that the damage will manifest right away (in most cases I'd imagine) and that CGC should have little trouble reproducing it in house.

[0r0d]

I'm waiting on a response from CGC to my query about my bent/damaged books.   

No reply yet, so I decided to check my spam folder to make sure there wasnt something there.   Found this right at the top...

[Iconic1s]

On 8/27/2024 at 7:50 PM, wiparker824 said:

A nice explanation of what bending the book can cause and how it “impacts the condition” of the book from the horse’s mouth. 

Well, I guess CGC “wrote the book” on this stuff and then proceeded to bend it (literally and figuratively) at this point.

Has anyone shown CGC / Matt Nelson this video?  Oh wait, never mind 

[bc]

On 8/28/2024 at 5:34 PM, Stefan_W said:

It is sealed all the way around, but the strength of the seal is not completely consistent. The case I cracked in the video was sealed all the way around, but the seal was so weak that it practically came apart by itself. Other books are like fortresses and you have to do some serious damage to the case to get them out. In both instances the inner well is bent the same, but cant speak to whether it matters in terms of impact on the books inside. 

That's not good.

-bc

[wiparker824]

On 8/28/2024 at 2:34 PM, Stefan_W said:

It is sealed all the way around, but the strength of the seal is not completely consistent. The case I cracked in the video was sealed all the way around, but the seal was so weak that it practically came apart by itself. Other books are like fortresses and you have to do some serious damage to the case to get them out. In both instances the inner well is bent the same, but cant speak to whether it matters in terms of impact on the books inside. 

Can confirm both instances happening to me with newer cases graded in the last few months that I’ve cracked. The big difference before they changed whatever they did with the previous gen cases was you could always use even just your bare hands to pry it open just enough to wedge a flathead screwdriver in the case. Now you really can’t. New cases I’m always grabbing a hammer to tap a screwdriver in lightly to create that separation because the seal is tight all the way around. But like you said, I’ve had books that once I do that they completely come apart in my hands on all edges. Other books I have to slide and pop the seal all the way around the book with the screwdriver to relieve it from the case.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/28/2024 at 7:17 PM, Poutine said:

So I've taken a look at my last sub and noticed the inner well "slopes" from the upper label portion being held by the outer shell. There is no bowing fortunately 

This was 2022 I believe 

I believe I'm right in saying that cgc said this was "normal" included some clarifier once that they've somewhat always had that? Or is this truly something that we're just now noticing?

I doubt that due to the actual damage, but is the only sense "I can make out of it!"

That somehow something changed that perhaps this "normal bend is now somewhat causing an issue?" That is the stretch that just leads me doubting but wanted to ask if we've somehow ruled it out? With facts? Rationale" we "just don't remember it?" Or never bothered to check? Lol

Straws but was double checking

[ADAMANTIUM]

I mean if it is mostly "thinner books" but the same deep well, it is hard to believe...

Cause thinner and same amount of area? That means it should have more room not lest to bend? Or is this to combat scs rather than the case swap? 

I'm sure cgc knows for sure, but all this might as well feel rhetorical as there is just too many unknowns at the moment. Other than for sure some twists and damage.

Just venting

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/28/2024 at 7:31 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I believe I'm right in saying that cgc said this was "normal" included some clarifier once that they've somewhat always had that? Or is this truly something that we're just now noticing?

I doubt that due to the actual damage, but is the only sense "I can make out of it!"

That somehow something changed that perhaps this "normal bend is now somewhat causing an issue?" That is the stretch that just leads me doubting but wanted to ask if we've somehow ruled it out? With facts? Rationale" we "just don't remember it?" Or never bothered to check? Lol

Straws but was double checking

Just is this somehow a hat trick and scs never was or this is new? Or does the same amount of area with more room to bend now causing an issue?

Probably the latter. Anyways

[ADAMANTIUM]

Forgive me I'm tired

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/28/2024 at 7:49 PM, Poutine said:

I'm not sure. What I do know, that out of this submission, this particular book was a definite 9.4/9.6 candidate and it came to me as a 8.5 with the stress on the staples like the example here.

I decided to dig it out and see if perhaps it was the same issue.

I don't believe it is. There is a definite slope, but not really a bend like in the other examples here. I don't believe the well is parabolic but only cracking it out will ultimately determine what is going on with this book. I will most likely send it back to the presser and have a more informative explanation. 

I ask because yours was around the same time that I had sent in an invincible run, some grades were spot on, but again I agree with you that this is somehow an after grading problem, despite some of the grades received for years that seem inexplicable.

Some say grading is right then inconcistent, and I don't want to cause a fuss or randomness.

Short I agree and think I have it now.

[ADAMANTIUM]

I found about 20 invincible books that I sent in, in 2022.

Randoms of the bunch were graded 7.5 and 8.0, which since they were all found at the same place and the hits actually hit 9.8, I was left to wonder if I needed to fish the ones left out as well 😔 ❤️‍🩹 to look at

That panic mode spurred the multiple posts. My bad

Edited August 29 by ADAMANTIUM

[MAY1979]

I just went through a box of 30 misc late 70's Marvel CGC 9.8 Slabs.

- All 18 2nd Gen Slabs books were flat like pancake - Beautiful!
- 10 of the 3rd Gen Slabs all 211 and 212 series were as flat or  virtually as flat as a pancake.
- 2 of the 3rd Gen 211 series has a very slight slope/slant from top to bottom.  Really had scrutinize to notice. They are just fine.

I have decided that regardless pre or post 1975, 420 series or higher that i will not purchase online unless it's a venue where buyer has all the power. Exception being certain books that due to their size or width seem immune.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMHO someone "well known" should tag CLINK and MCS to this thread and let them know why they may see less bids and likley lower hammers, plus increased requests for returns, as a result of what is going on.  At this juncture they need to care especially in what is and will be a long-term overall hobby bear market. 

Perhaps also tag other folks like Blazing Bob as well as at very least this will not help business for him - but again should be someone well known and respected who tags them not someone like me who is neither.

Edited August 29 by MAY1979

[0r0d]

Considering that the general angle of bend of the inner wells are pretty small, I'm starting to think that maybe the bent wells are more a result of what caused the damage and not what is causing the damage to the books.   I mean, imagine that the encapsulation process when the book is placed into the inner well results in the well being bent like 20 or 30 degrees (or whatever, something severe enough to cause ticks).  This could a) create the ticks and b) leave the inner well at the small angle that we're seeing.

If this is the case, it should be easy for CGC to find the problem and it's not related to the fitment of the inner well in the case, temperature of sealing process, or whatever.   Also, it would mean that there's no ongoing damage being done to books because there's no significant pressure from the small bend angle.

Anyway, just wondering.  We all assume the bend causes the problem, but that might be a red hearing.