Bidding on your own auction 7 7

[Heronext]

The OP's rules for this thread included "No Judgment"; some posters appear to have broken this rule

Edited June 27 by Heronext

[Funnybooks]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:46 AM, Heronext said:

The OP's rules for this thread included "No Judgment"; some posters appear to have broken this rule

OP also said this and takes this stand......so, no judgment......

• AUTHOR

Posted 9 hours ago

Perhaps regardless of intent increasing the price during an auction can seem a bit unethical.

Still not convinced though. I can’t see much of a difference between starting an auction with a reserve and deciding what you want your reserve to be during the auction. 
 

Doesn’t seem like shill bidding to me. 

[shadroch]

On 6/27/2024 at 2:03 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

If it's an auction with an online component, then it's a federal crime: wire fraud, which is a felony.

Shill bidding is legal in Arizona as long as it is disclosed in the auction rules.  I will assume it would be just like our pot laws.  If a state legalizes it, the Federal government doesn't enforce it's own rules.   Pot is illegal everywhere, according to the Feds, yet more than half the population lives in states where it is legal. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:15 AM, shadroch said:

Shill bidding is legal in Arizona as long as it is disclosed in the auction rules.  I will assume it would be just like our pot laws.  If a state legalizes it, the Federal government doesn't enforce it's own rules.   Pot is illegal everywhere, according to the Feds, yet more than half the population lives in states where it is legal. 

Nope. It is a federal crime, period—fully enforced if it's caught. It would be legal in Arizona only if there is no online bidding or bidding by mail in that auction (which might be the case with smaller auctions). If there's online bidding in the auction, then it's wire fraud. If there's mail bidding in the auction, then it's mail fraud.

Pot is a bad example because that's a political minefield and the feds see the writing on the wall.

Edited June 27 by jimbo_7071

[shadroch]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:19 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Nope. It is a federal crime, period—fully enforced if it's caught. It would be legal in Arizona only if there is no online bidding or bidding by mail in that auction (which might be the case with smaller auctions). If there's online bidding in the auction, then it's wire fraud. If there's mail bidding in the auction, then it's mail fraud.

As is lighting a joint in the privacy of my bedroom.   Don't do the crime if you can't do it in time. 

[blazingbob]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:25 AM, shadroch said:

As is lighting a joint in the privacy of my bedroom.   Don't do the crime if you can't do it in time. 

Hmmm,  this thread is turning into a Cheech and Chong movie.  Up in Smoke it goes

[MAY1979]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:28 AM, blazingbob said:

Hmmm,  this thread is turning into a Cheech and Chong movie.  Up in Smoke it goes

yep this thread has gone to pot.

Edited June 27 by MAR1979

[ThothAmon]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:15 AM, shadroch said:

Shill bidding is legal in Arizona as long as it is disclosed in the auction rules.  I will assume it would be just like our pot laws.  If a state legalizes it, the Federal government doesn't enforce it's own rules.   Pot is illegal everywhere, according to the Feds, yet more than half the population lives in states where it is legal. 

Fences make good neighbors. 

[BlackOut21]

I’ll ask my wife her thoughts when she gets home but…is a bid considered a contract?

If yes, then I can clearly see why placing a bid on your own auction is clearly unethical and wrong. 

If no, then. Idk. It’s hard for me to say that it’s truly unethical to bid on your own auction. 

[SpineTic]

 

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:25 AM, shadroch said:

As is lighting a joint in the privacy of my bedroom.   Don't do the crime if you can't do it in time. 

It's not the same at all. I see that you only quoted part of my previous post.

The feds know that the laws against pot are going away and have chosen not to enforce recreational use.

The laws against wire fraud and mail fraud are not going away. If anything, awareness of internet crime is increasing. Shill bidding is hard to catch, but if it's caught, it is prosecuted, especially if the dollar amounts involved are significant.

[Funnybooks]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:50 AM, BlackOut21 said:

I’ll ask my wife her thoughts when she gets home but…is a bid considered a contract?

If yes, then I can clearly see why placing a bid on your own auction is clearly unethical and wrong. 

If no, then. Idk. It’s hard for me to say that it’s truly unethical to bid on your own auction. 

[Cliff R.]

The real problem is not knowing who you are bidding against.

If it is the owner, or their representative, or the auction house itself, the bids placed by these entities should be made known to the public.

 

 

[Ride the Tiger]

I honestly don't think it's a crime worthy of prison. I've never done it. Don't plan on doing it. I only do BIN sales when selling. My thoughts are that I'm gonna bid what I believe a product is worth. Don't matter what everyone else is doing. I take full responsibility for any bid I place. That's the way it should be.

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:32 AM, ThothAmon said:

Fences make good neighbors. 

Better:

[Phicks]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:31 AM, MAR1979 said:

yep this thread has gone to pot.

This thread is stuck in the weeds.

[troydivision1]

On 6/27/2024 at 4:18 AM, Terry JSA said:

Heritage. Maybe? 

Heard it through a grapevine.

I for sure through this was discussed on these very boards at one point.
Something...something....it is legal in Texas for auction houses to bid on their own listings...?
Which I guess would be a conflict since those auction houses know what other bidder's max bids are.

[october]

On 6/26/2024 at 11:11 PM, Tony S said:

I believe this issue of shill bidders and legality and morality has nuances to it.  Legally - in at least some states (and for sure the ones auction houses - like Heritage) locate in it appears to be based both on intent and on what has been disclosed. 

Shills only seek to drive up the price. They do not want to win any of the items they bid on. This looks to be illegal everywhere. Including say Texas, where Heritage is located. 

But if it is stated in the terms of the auction house or listing or event that "the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the right to bid" - well there you have it.  And Heritage (the only auction house I've looked over all the fine print in the agreement) says just that. Consignors can bid on their own lots. It's a minimum bid if done in writing before the live auction (and they maybe pay a reduced fee if the win their own lot) and if done during the live auction and they win they pay the full fee. Heritage also clearly states that "From time to time, the Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees may place bids on lots in the Auction." Auctioneer, affiliates and employees. That pretty much covers everyone, right? 

So... IMHO, shilling is wrong. Put it in an auction - get what it sells for is honest. But on the other hand  - WHY do only the big auction houses get to shill and it's OK?  Shill Legally and doesn't seem to affect their reputation or business. 

My question above is a bit rhetorical. I've answered already. It is very nuanced.  They have told you - if you read all the fine print - they might have associates or the auctioneer or employees of the company bid.   They have told you the possibility exists the consignor might bid in some fashion - creating a hidden reserve.  If one was to list  books on eBay and say all this in the description it would be legal (though eBay still might shut the listing down because legal or not it violates their listing policy) But even if eBay didn't take down the listing anyone reading the description would be much less likely to bid. 

Heritages listing agreement. https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-c....zx?view=terms

 

I was curious about this, as I didn't think it was allowed on Heritage. I happen to have a bunch of stuff in the weekly auction right now, so I tried to bid on one of my own items to see the result. Before people freak out, I picked a lot with zero current bids and bid $1 in case it actually went through. It did not. I got this screen:

 

[SeniorSurfer]

On 6/27/2024 at 12:11 AM, Tony S said:

But on the other hand  - WHY do only the big auction houses get to shill and it's OK?  Shill Legally and doesn't seem to affect their reputation or business. 

 

[revat]

I would just say to follow the terms of wherever you are selling/bidding.  If they don't have specific terms prohibiting behavior you dislike, don't do business with those auction houses, and feel free to send a note to them letting them know what changes you want and why.

VERY rarely are people on this website (or the world at large) in auctions for things they desperately need like groceries and baby diapers and wheelchairs, so be more selective who you buy/sell with if it matters to you.  But if you follow the law and the terms of the auction house, I'm not out here trying to police the rest of it.