Bidding on your own auction 8 8

[Chip Cataldo]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:33 PM, MAR1979 said:

Dude has well over $200 Million in Comic Art still he resorts to that, over what to him is mere penny ante stuff. Disgusting.

Homer - "Gee, Mister Burns...you're the richest guy I know."
Burns - "Yes, but I'd give it all for a little more."

[thehumantorch]

On 6/28/2024 at 12:57 PM, techtre2003 said:

Scenario 1: You see a book on ebay you want that's at $40 so you put in a $100 max bid. You wind up winning the auction for $50.
Seller messages you and says, "hey, I really wanted $80 for that book so I'll need an extra $30 or I'll cancel the auction". 
 

Scenario 2: Seller has a book on ebay that he wants $80 out of. The bid is only at $50 with a couple of minutes left so he puts in a $75 shill bid and luckily there is a higher bidder so it gets bumped to $80 and ends there.

I don't think anyone here would say scenario 1 is ok but it sounds like scenario 2 would be acceptable to some. Same outcome on both, you were willing to pay up to $100 and only ended up paying $80. The difference, in my opinion, is that in scenario 1 the seller was being upfront with their shadiness; in scenario 2 the seller kept their shadiness hidden behind the scenes. 

 

Both would be unacceptable and both would be unethical.

 

[SeniorSurfer]

On 6/27/2024 at 2:21 PM, ThothAmon said:

From what I understand auction houses sometimes make guarantees to consignors to entice them to auction specific pieces. The auction house obviously believing the piece will sell for more than the guarantee. Is the ethics different if the auction house itself, and not the consignor/owner, bids the item up to an acceptable price, willing to add the piece to their own inventory if their guarantee was overly optimistic.   Ask yourself, how do the motivations of the other bidders really matter?

As others have noted, if the auction house does indeed practice this "business model," I'd like to see it easier to find on their rules.  I don't expect it would be plastered in large letters but I'd not want to need a microscope to find it either.

I've had two incidents in the last few years where the end winning bid was right at my highest bid.  The first one I was bidding "live" and had some back/forth with other bidders (one would assume) so it was/could have been the usual scenario.  The second involved my putting in a higher amount and leaving as I could not be there at the end.  When I tuned in one last time with about an hour to go I was just a couple of hundred away from being outbid, and since I really wanted the book at the condition offered I upped the "hidden" bid to not lose it for a few hundred.  I did add a very specific, very odd dollar amount that would have taken into account a snipe for the usual round figures within budgetary range, but darn if it didn't go the distance at the very last second with every single penny of my odd amount consumed.  I mean... it could have been legit, but usually when some other "real" person wants it they will overshoot by a bunch, which will then cause their winning bid to have their own odd ending figures.  But to precisely guess my hidden amount and bid with such accuracy in one final swoop that it wasn't surpassed but completely used?  As I said, it could have been legit but...but... it could also be sour grapes that I didn't get it at the lower cost or have had at least $3-8 left over.  I mean leave me some bus fare at least.

 

[DanJD]

An individual bidding it up doesn’t matter to me.  Sure I would like it cheaper, but I bid based on what I am willing to pay regardless.  The shady part IMO is if an auction house knows what my max bid is and shill bids it to right below my max.  I don’t even know if that’s possible or happening.  If it does, that’s manipulation and shady.  

[Funnybooks]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:09 AM, DanJD said:

An individual bidding it up doesn’t matter to me.  Sure I would like it cheaper, but I bid based on what I am willing to pay regardless.  The shady part IMO is if an auction house knows what my max bid is and shill bids it to right below my max.  I don’t even know if that’s possible or happening.  If it does, that’s manipulation and shady.  

In your scenario, If your max bid is what you're willing to pay regardless, what should it matter how it get's there? Via shill bidding by the consignor, shill bidding via a friend/associate or via the auction house itself.

Edited July 3 by Funnybooks

[DanJD]

On 7/3/2024 at 7:18 AM, Funnybooks said:

In your scenario, If your max bid is what you're willing to pay regardless, what should it matter how it get's there? Via shill bidding by the consignor, shill bidding via a friend/associate or via the auction house itself.

Knowing non-public information behind the scenes and using it to their advantage is what makes it shady to me. Blindly bidding it up with the risk of busting and having to start over and incur costs seems to be a balance IMO.  I would not do either though if selling.

[Gaard]

There's quite a difference between what I am willing to pay and what I should've paid. Let's say I'm willing to go to $200 for a particular comic. I would've won it for $100 if not for some shenanigans by the seller or auction house. I really don't understand how people can say that I should be ok with it because I was willing to pay what I ended up paying.

[Lightning55]

On 7/3/2024 at 5:20 PM, Gaard said:

There's quite a difference between what I am willing to pay and what I should've paid. Let's say I'm willing to go to $200 for a particular comic. I would've won it for $100 if not for some shenanigans by the seller or auction house. I really don't understand how people can say that I should be ok with it because I was willing to pay what I ended up paying.

It's ok for them, because they are getting more of your money by "influencing" the bid price.

It's a rigged game, if not strictly regulated.

[dupont2005]

On 6/26/2024 at 6:02 PM, shadroch said:

I'm not sure what ethics has to do with it.  

Suppose I consign a book to Auctionsareus.  I agree to a 10% consignment fee. It's a $500 book but everyone is sleeping and it is at $50 with one minute left.  I bid $70 and no one tops it. I pay the $70, the auction house gets it's $7 commission and I don't lose hundreds on the sale.  I have a contract with the auction house and honored it.  What contract or obligation do I owe the other potential buyers?

List it for $500

[WolverineX]

On 6/28/2024 at 2:35 PM, misterrmystery said:

I am currently selling my collection through Heritage. Their program does not allow you to bid on your own items. If I'm following the auction that my items are in, when my item comes up, it says "your consignment" and disables bidding on that item. Of course that could be defeated if you have a friend bid up the item which would be dishonest. Some of my items have done beyond expectations and others disappointing but all in all, it evens out.

@NP_Gresham  will be your friend

[ttfitz]

On 7/3/2024 at 7:58 AM, SeniorSurfer said:

The second involved my putting in a higher amount and leaving as I could not be there at the end.  When I tuned in one last time with about an hour to go I was just a couple of hundred away from being outbid, and since I really wanted the book at the condition offered I upped the "hidden" bid to not lose it for a few hundred.  I did add a very specific, very odd dollar amount that would have taken into account a snipe for the usual round figures within budgetary range, but darn if it didn't go the distance at the very last second with every single penny of my odd amount consumed.  I mean... it could have been legit, but usually when some other "real" person wants it they will overshoot by a bunch, which will then cause their winning bid to have their own odd ending figures.  But to precisely guess my hidden amount and bid with such accuracy in one final swoop that it wasn't surpassed but completely used?  As I said, it could have been legit but...but... it could also be sour grapes that I didn't get it at the lower cost or have had at least $3-8 left over.

You don't say where this was, but if it was eBay or a site that works similarly, there is a possible explanation which would be less nefarious.

Let's say for example, your "hidden" bid was $1073.32, and the bid increment - at that level - was $100. If someone placed a later bid than you for a quite normal $1000, you having the earlier higher bid, would win, even though you didn't bid more than the next bid increment from the underbidder.

[SeniorSurfer]

On 7/4/2024 at 12:18 AM, ttfitz said:

You don't say where this was, but if it was eBay or a site that works similarly, there is a possible explanation which would be less nefarious.

Let's say for example, your "hidden" bid was $1073.32, and the bid increment - at that level - was $100. If someone placed a later bid than you for a quite normal $1000, you having the earlier higher bid, would win, even though you didn't bid more than the next bid increment from the underbidder.

It was CLink and it was a five-figure total, which makes for more random digits in the equation to hazard a correct under-guess.  My usual experience is someone(s) just places a wad and leaves me in the dust, inheriting a rather strange ending bid total.  Still, I left the possibility open for it being a legit ending and as you note, there's a good possibility there's nothing to it. 

[MerryTwice2]

On 6/28/2024 at 1:22 AM, Lightning55 said:

It's like being in a rigged roulette game at the casino. If you found out you were a victim of that type of fraud, you'd be all over it. 

This is the same thing, a rigged game aimed at extracting more money from you than would happen naturally.  It's theft.






You are comparing completely different things. An auction is when you put a sum of money and if something happens you will take the goods. If you do not take the goods, then you do not lose money. Especially for you, I decided to understand the roulette strategy, I read https://gamblizard.com/blog/roulette-strategy/ here. There you choose a number and a color and it's all a matter of chance. If you are worried, then go to a licensed casino. Therefore, I do not understand your comparison.

This is a very strange comparison, what are you getting at?

Edited September 19 by MerryTwice2

[jjonahjameson11]

On 6/27/2024 at 4:15 AM, Terry JSA said:

Imagine shill bidding. Holy hell, how low could you could you possibly go?

Well, you could also engage in collusion with your buddies to keep prices low by asking them to not bid on items you want 🤔

[alexgross.com]

On 7/3/2024 at 5:09 AM, DanJD said:

An individual bidding it up doesn’t matter to me.  Sure I would like it cheaper, but I bid based on what I am willing to pay regardless.  The shady part IMO is if an auction house knows what my max bid is and shill bids it to right below my max.  I don’t even know if that’s possible or happening.  If it does, that’s manipulation and shady.  

of course they know what your max bid is, it's their own platform/website. it would be incredible if it were not possible. 

all three major auction houses have been alleged to do this by insiders and there have been lawsuits brought as well against at least one of them. the story told by @SeniorSurfer is a very very common one with most auction buyers, and it's almost certainly happening on all valuable books. if i can't bid at the last moment, then i don't play. never ever pre-bid. 

the whole thing is worthy of a major investigation/lawsuit/enormous legal penalty. if that took place however, it would likely damage comics prices in a big way. so i'm not sure i hope for that as someone with a large collection. 

[comicwiz]

I only read through the first page, and all I could say is wow to some of the responses.

The comparison to other auction companies "doing it" is false. Although I long worried that the notion of auction employees being allowed to bid could cause this confusion, and conversely a narrative evolving that it's fine to do because they can.

Auction companies do disclose that their employees can bid on auctions, but not on their own personal items. They also claim to have safeguards in place to protect against shill bidding, but these parameters are hardly a solid bed or foundation to eliminate it. The parameters will be guided by state laws, so if governing laws allow it to some degree or defined manner, it will happen, and the burden is on the consumer to take any/all measures to protect themselves against it happening to them.

The NP Gresham incident is definitely something that rattled a lot of people within the community when it happened, but there are (I believe) far more concerning patterns which have revealed themselves over the years, such as record prices being set, whereby the buyer used personal property instead of cash as collateral against the purchase on a record auction, and this is fraught with a number of risks, not to mention the way it subverts the entire model and framework of establishing fair market values. 

Similarly to the above noted, the danger here is that bidding on your own auction creates a false, deceptive and artificial desirability for the listed item. There are instruments such as "Buy it Now" (BIN) or reserves which allow a safeguard on your property should you have concerns of it selling under value. Even auction companies claim those bids they put in are to win the item, not to drive up the price, and if reserves are seen as a hinderance to achieving a desired outcome, then use a fixed price format instead. Bidding on your own auctions is illegal, and at minimum if you are caught, can leave a permanent reputation shiner. 

Edited September 19 by comicwiz

[comicwiz]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:33 PM, MAY1979 said:

On 7/2/2024 at 6:51 PM, Uff_Da said:

Sure did, and he didn't think it was any big deal 

 

Dude has well over $200 Million in Comic Art still he resorts to that, over what to him is mere penny ante stuff. Disgusting.

the way that entire situation was handled was pathetic. but not surprising in the least. especially if you followed the antics of "NP Gresham" related activites on only-example items which would end up on the LWG website not too long after the auction. seeing an item being represented as having been sold through an auction, only to reappear in some inexplicable way, in the hands of someone either tied or connected to the original consignor, dealer or auction house will always raise red flags, and it's not a stretch to say in that instance, it was learnt behaviour of missteps being rewarded with no real world consequences. 

Edited September 19 by comicwiz

[shadroch]

On 9/19/2024 at 7:09 AM, comicwiz said:

I only read through the first page, and all I could say is wow to some of the responses.

The comparison to other auction companies "doing it" is false. Although I long worried that the notion of auction employees being allowed to bid could cause this confusion, and conversely a narrative evolving that it's fine to do because they can.

Auction companies do disclose that their employees can bid on auctions, but not on their own personal items. They also claim to have safeguards in place to protect against shill bidding, but these parameters are hardly a solid bed or foundation to eliminate it. The parameters will be guided by state laws, so if governing laws allow it to some degree or defined manner, it will happen, and the burden is on the consumer to take any/all measures to protect themselves against it happening to them.

The NP Gresham incident is definitely something that rattled a lot of people within the community when it happened, but there are (I believe) far more concerning patterns which have revealed themselves over the years, such as record prices being set, whereby the buyer used personal property instead of cash as collateral against the purchase on a record auction, and this is fraught with a number of risks, not to mention the way it subverts the entire model and framework of establishing fair market values. 

 Bidding on your own auctions is illegal, and at minimum if you are caught, can leave a permanent reputation shiner. 

Proxibid allows auctions to bid on their items, as long as they state so. As I don't think they would do anything illegal, I question your statement that it is illegal. Many times, I'll be the only bidder at fifty cents, but a last-minute bid just under my max comes in. I don't like it, but they set the rules.  I don't use Proxibid as much as I might if they didn't have the rules, but it's their bat and ball.

Learn the rules and play by them, or you will give someone else the advantage.

Edited September 19 by shadroch

[Lightning55]

On 6/27/2024 at 6:22 PM, Lightning55 said:

It's like being in a rigged roulette game at the casino. If you found out you were a victim of that type of fraud, you'd be all over it. 

This is the same thing, a rigged game aimed at extracting more money from you than would happen naturally.  It's theft.

On 9/19/2024 at 9:31 AM, MerryTwice2 said:

This is a very strange comparison, what are you getting at?

I thought it was fairly clear. Rigging a roulette wheel to control the outcome is illegal. Rigging an auction by manipulating bids, if not already illegal, should be.

Edited September 20 by Lightning55

[Buzzetta]

On 9/19/2024 at 10:09 AM, comicwiz said:

Bidding on your own auctions is illegal, and at minimum if you are caught, can leave a permanent reputation shiner. 

<cough> Unless you sell art.