Latest Scandal! Comic Book Dealer Disbarred As Lawyer!!!!

[tth2]

By the way, with respect to the part of your message that I've put in bold, don't presume to tell us what matters when it comes to collecting comics, and we won't tell you either, okay?

 

Since when? Ever since I started reading these boards you have done exactly that.

Wow, Bill, it didn't take much to get you to reveal the snarling visage that is the flipside of the smiling happy-go-lucky collector/ex-dealer that you've previously been happy to display.

 

By the way, how have I ever told people what matters when it comes to collecting comics? I think there's a big difference between me stating an opinion such as "I believe that pressing is a form of restoration, and therefore would like those who press to disclose" and you (and your cronies) saying "you little collectors don't bother coming to your own conclusions (unless it agrees with ours), because your betters have already decided that pressing is not restoration and therefore you don't need to have that fact disclosed to you".

 

Speaking of closing ranks. You and your cronies are just not used to the ones you pick on having allies as well, with the cahones to call BS and hypocrisy where it needs to be called.

I have to admit, if someone had told me yesterday that they could get me and Brad speaking on the same side, I would have laughed. So if that's what you consider to be "my cronies", o-o-kay.

 

By the way, "hypocrisy" means to have said one thing but behaved in an opposite manner. Exactly how have I (or any of my alleged cronies) acted "hypocritically" when it comes to pressing and disclosure? Are you aware of any of "us" who has pressed books and then sold them without disclosure?

[tth2]

Richard, I guess that's part of why some people are up in arms (apart from the fact that they fire up in a split second about a lot of topics) but why not make it a policy to disclose always? That's the part that would bother me. Since you're willing to disclose if asked, why not just disclose? From your end as a dealer, do you consider that disclosing as a default has an adverse economic impact on how much you could sell the book? Is that a secondary reason to the fact that you don't consider pressing restoration? From my perspective, it seems that the pressing is not restoration position is simply a straw man to the fact that a disclosed-as-pressed copy might not be as desirable.

 

Let me rephrase that:

 

Case 1: you don't disclose, the buyer does not ask, the buyer does not care about pressing: no harm no foul, everyone is happy

 

Case 2: you don't disclose, the buyer asks, the buyer cares about pressing: the buyer is informed, no harm no foul, everyone is happy

 

Case 3: you don't disclose, the buyer does not ask, the buyer cares about pressing: AHAH, the buyer realizes the book was pressed, wasn't told and is pissed and then posts about it on CGC and drags your company's name in the mud because you slighted him (even though, I agree, if said-customer cares about pressing, they should ask about it).

 

CASE 4: you DISCLOSE, it doesn't matter if the buyer cares or not, there is NEVER any issue when all are INFORMED.

 

It seems to me that Case 4 is the most hassle- and headache-free. Therefore I come to the conclusion that there is something that holds you back from adopting Case 4 as your business model and I would appreciate if you could articulate your reticence for adopting that Case 4 as policy.

 

Thanks,

 

Scrooge.

Wow, well said Michael!

 

Given that you're not a grade-obsessed collector, it's nice to see clear evidence that a collector without a vested interest one way or the other can so clearly see the logic behind the pro-disclosure position.

[tth2]

It is about pressing. If pressing weren't viewed as something bad there would not be anything to disclose.It is about pressing. If pressing weren't viewed as something bad there would not be anything to disclose.It is about pressing. If pressing weren't viewed as something bad there would not be anything to disclose.It is about pressing. If pressing weren't viewed as something bad there would not be anything to disclose.

Some people believe that pressing is bad, some don't. Even if you don't believe pressing is bad, can you not understand that some people (rationally or irrationally) do believe it's bad and simply accomodate the desires of those people to know whether it's been pressed or not?

 

Whether or not I care that eating pork is wrong, if I know someone's religion prevents them from eating pork, I'm going to try to warn them that there is pork in their food rather than simply decide for myself that because I think there's nothing wrong with eating pork, I'm not going to warn him (unless he asks me first) because if eating pork is fine for me then it should be fine for him too. Why? Because it's simply the decent thing to do knowing that they think it's a big deal, and it doesn't hurt me in any way to do so.

[mar-vell]

I gotta say it is sad to see so much controversy about Matt's business practices! Not that Brad and his side don't have a point its just that Matt is one of the nicest guys i have ever talked comics with-period! I know and understand Matts point of view- to him pressing is nothing because he deals with heavily damaged books that need serious rebuilding. To many here matt's lack of disclosure on pressed books is fraud but I gotta believe Matt doesn't believe he is defrauding anyone. I do not believe Matt is a con artist at all! I just think he feels the NOD is wrong to cast pressing in such a way! I find it hard to believe that he has been treated the way he has on these boards! I have seen him swamped by insults when he posted and its a shame because the guy has more to share than most when it comes to comics.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I gotta say it is sad to see so much controversy about Matt's business practices! Not that Brad and his side don't have a point its just that Matt is one of the nicest guys i have ever talked comics with-period! I know and understand Matts point of view- to him pressing is nothing because he deals with heavily damaged books that need serious rebuilding. To many here matt's lack of disclosure on pressed books is fraud but I gotta believe Matt doesn't believe he is defrauding anyone. I do not believe Matt is a con artist at all! I just think he feels the NOD is wrong to cast pressing in such a way! I find it hard to believe that he has been treated the way he has on these boards! I have seen him swamped by insults when he posted and its a shame because the guy has more to share than most when it comes to comics.

 

Dave, they're not related.

 

Mr Schmell is apparently a great friend to many. He's owned and sold some books that are almost beyond imagination. By all accounts, his customer service is first rate. And the stories he could tell!

 

However, it didn't stop him taking the money of a number of clients and using it to sate his funny book addiction for a couple of years. As nice as he is, he committed organised fraud over a long period of time.

 

He also failed to explain why he tried to slip a known Ewert book past CGC for an ungrade, obviously to his financial benefit.

 

It's a sad fact that being nice does not disbar you from being a fraud...go ask Matt Nelson about shilling his own auctions with his second eBay ID.

[mar-vell]

I gotta say it is sad to see so much controversy about Matt's business practices! Not that Brad and his side don't have a point its just that Matt is one of the nicest guys i have ever talked comics with-period! I know and understand Matts point of view- to him pressing is nothing because he deals with heavily damaged books that need serious rebuilding. To many here matt's lack of disclosure on pressed books is fraud but I gotta believe Matt doesn't believe he is defrauding anyone. I do not believe Matt is a con artist at all! I just think he feels the NOD is wrong to cast pressing in such a way! I find it hard to believe that he has been treated the way he has on these boards! I have seen him swamped by insults when he posted and its a shame because the guy has more to share than most when it comes to comics.

 

Dave, they're not related.

 

Mr Schmell is apparently a great friend to many. He's owned and sold some books that are almost beyond imagination. By all accounts, his customer service is first rate. And the stories he could tell!

 

However, it didn't stop him taking the money of a number of clients and using it to sate his funny book addiction for a couple of years. As nice as he is, he committed organised fraud over a long period of time.

 

He also failed to explain why he tried to slip a known Ewert book past CGC for an ungrade, obviously to his financial benefit.

 

It's a sad fact that being nice does not disbar you from being a fraud...go ask Matt Nelson about shilling his own auctions with his second eBay ID.

 

Yeah I remember about Dougs screw-ups. If Matt has shilled his auctions i can't defend that.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think someone yesterday commented as to how quiet these boards have been lately…talk about tempting fate.

 

There’s so much wrong with so many of the accusations/assumptions being made that it’s tough to know where to start…but I’ll try anyway.

 

Firstly, let’s just bin the ‘cronies’ comment, please. If anyone’s implying that a number of us agree on certain subjects, let’s just call it for what it is…agreement on specific issues. The fact is that Tim agrees with Brad on a number of aspects of this discussion, but disagrees strongly with a number of others. I agree with Brad on a number of subjects, but personally feel that Schmell is the anti-Christ. Tim and I have common ground on certain issues, but take opposite views on others. The ‘cronies’ comment is demeaning, childish and unlikely to assist your argument…can the insults and deal with the issues.

 

Secondly, I find the insistence on ‘showing your credentials’ to be extremely insulting to everybody involved in this thread. The underlying suggestion is that if you didn’t attend a certain con in a certain year, if you have never owned certain books, if you haven’t dealt with certain dealers, if you can’t count certain ‘names’ amongst your friends…your views and arguments are without merit. Extremely elitist…and patently untrue. The number of ‘old time dealers’ who simply don’t understand the current market is proof enough of this.

 

Thirdly, whether you like/dislike pressing, whether you believe/don’t believe it’s restoration…is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What this all hinges on is the fact that a number of buyers don’t like it, and do consider it resto. Just like every other segment of the market, their preferences need to be catered to, and that means informing them and letting them make their decisions. To do any less, fully aware of how certain people feel about it, is deceptive and underhand.

 

On these very boards, Matt himself made the argument that he doesn’t disclose because nobody cares, an argument that these discussions once again prove erroneous. Even if there was truth in it, why would it lead to non-disclosure, as surely there would be no risk involved? No, the simple truth is that he doesn’t proactively disclose because he knows he will disenfranchise a certain portion of the market, thus leading to a possible downturn in prices realised. Now, can anyone explain how that cannot be classified as deception for financial gain?

 

If you have no problem with pressing, that is absolutely fine. If you don’t believe it to be restoration, that’s also fine. That Matt makes money out of pressing books is also fine, just as the rest of the restoration services he offers are fine. It’s not that he presses books that is the problem. It’s that he doesn’t tell anyone unless asked.

 

Finally, I do understand why people will defend their friends/associates…it’s a natural human reaction. They will minimise, or even turn a blind eye, and that doesn’t mean that they’re pariahs…it simply means that they’re human.

 

However, what it also means is that they will have difficulty being objective…another very human reaction. Loyalty is to be admired…but it doesn’t mean you’re right!

[namisgr]

I think someone yesterday commented as to how quiet these boards have been lately…talk about tempting fate.

 

There’s so much wrong with so many of the accusations/assumptions being made that it’s tough to know where to start…but I’ll try anyway.

 

Firstly, let’s just bin the ‘cronies’ comment, please. If anyone’s implying that a number of us agree on certain subjects, let’s just call it for what it is…agreement on specific issues. The fact is that Tim agrees with Brad on a number of aspects of this discussion, but disagrees strongly with a number of others. I agree with Brad on a number of subjects, but personally feel that Schmell is the anti-Christ. Tim and I have common ground on certain issues, but take opposite views on others. The ‘cronies’ comment is demeaning, childish and unlikely to assist your argument…can the insults and deal with the issues.

 

Secondly, I find the insistence on ‘showing your credentials’ to be extremely insulting to everybody involved in this thread. The underlying suggestion is that if you didn’t attend a certain con in a certain year, if you have never owned certain books, if you haven’t dealt with certain dealers, if you can’t count certain ‘names’ amongst your friends…your views and arguments are without merit. Extremely elitist…and patently untrue. The number of ‘old time dealers’ who simply don’t understand the current market is proof enough of this.

 

Thirdly, whether you like/dislike pressing, whether you believe/don’t believe it’s restoration…is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What this all hinges on is the fact that a number of buyers don’t like it, and do consider it resto. Just like every other segment of the market, their preferences need to be catered to, and that means informing them and letting them make their decisions. To do any less, fully aware of how certain people feel about it, is deceptive and underhand.

 

On these very boards, Matt himself made the argument that he doesn’t disclose because nobody cares, an argument that these discussions once again prove erroneous. Even if there was truth in it, why would it lead to non-disclosure, as surely there would be no risk involved? No, the simple truth is that he doesn’t proactively disclose because he knows he will disenfranchise a certain portion of the market, thus leading to a possible downturn in prices realised. Now, can anyone explain how that cannot be classified as deception for financial gain?

 

If you have no problem with pressing, that is absolutely fine. If you don’t believe it to be restoration, that’s also fine. That Matt makes money out of pressing books is also fine, just as the rest of the restoration services he offers are fine. It’s not that he presses books that is the problem. It’s that he doesn’t tell anyone unless asked.

 

Finally, I do understand why people will defend their friends/associates…it’s a natural human reaction. They will minimise, or even turn a blind eye, and that doesn’t mean that they’re pariahs…it simply means that they’re human.

 

However, what it also means is that they will have difficulty being objective…another very human reaction. Loyalty is to be admired…but it doesn’t mean you’re right!

 

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

Very well put, Nick.

 

And might I add, no matter how valid ciorac's points may or may not be, he's not helping with his tone or his wording. Nothing personal against Mike (or anyone else who wants to express his opinion), but if I were viewing this site for the first time, I'd be prone to side with Brad, based solely on how he handles himself.

 

I swear, this thread started to smell like Hammer or JC was nearby.

 

Rick

[Dad&Son-migration]

Well said Nick!!!

I'd love to see all of us just work together for the good of the hobby. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes myself... I like to speak my mind. I respect many people here that are on both sides of the fence as I see their input as useful and understand that we all came into this hobby from different stations in life.

Tim (TTH), Bill ( Ciorac ), Brad( Red Hook), John(Sheradon), Scott(FFB), Nick(Flaming_Telepath) ... I like the outspoken approach these guys take. I'm also humbled by their knowledge on many different points in the hobby. I take what they say...and learn from it.

To be honest... I only revived my love for the hobby about a year ago and in that time have turned it into a labour of love because I enjoy learning.

If it wasn't for this place... I'd be like so many "out there" buying eBay NM without a clue...

[showcase4]

I do not believe Matt is a con artist at all! I just think he feels the NOD is wrong to cast pressing in such a way!

 

The NOD has no position - positive or negative - regarding pressing, or any other form of comic book enhancement/alteration/treatment/conservation/restoration.

 

We simply believe that pressing and all other processes/procedures done to alter a book from its original state should be voluntarily disclosed by a seller, so that the potential buyer can make an informed decision.

 

The NOD is not about pressing...it is solely about disclosure, with the hopes of making our hobby a better place for all of us.

 

Steve Meyer

NOD Charter Member

[blazingbob]

Michael Naiman

 

NOD member, now banned.

 

Next

[Red Hook]

Let's not forget that we're no longer talking about minor localized pressing of the odd uneven area on a cover, but the complete disassembly of a book in order to press the cover. With CGC's blessing of course. It's only going to get worse.

Basically the collector is saying: You want our money? Then tell us exactly what we're getting for our money.

 

If you don't feel the collector has a right to that info (and it's always the guysselling that feel otherwise) then you'll find yourself on the opposite side of the majority of collectors who are aware of what's going on!

 

Sorry to upset those folk's sense of entitlement.

 

Actually, I'm not sorry in the least. It's good to see the attitudes on display:

 

- It's our hobby. Don't question our practices.

- How dare anyone attempt to open the discussion.

- Since we're tired (or incapable) of debating you intelligently, let's try the personal attack.

- CGC is the one and only authority, and anyone who disagrees with any of their positions should leave the hobby.

- Less information on a book is good. More is bad.

- We have a right to press, disassemble, swap out staples, and worse, without any small time collectors looking over our shoulder. It's our hobby, our income stream, these are my friends, so get lost.

 

It's good to be back! And I want to thank Bill P. ( I now know who you are - I googled ciorac and found your lovely myspace page - I thought no one over 15 had one of those - so I do know you are single, straight, a scorpio and looking for the girl of your dreams! ) for re-igniting the discussions with his brilliant maneuver of resurrecting a long-dead thread and throwing spitballs in an attempt to enlighten and entertain.

 

It backfires every time!

 

[Dad&Son-migration]

Michael Naiman

 

NOD member, now banned.

 

Next

 

Bob... was he banned from NOD, these forums...both... I don't know his association to the industry....actually...never heard of him

[blazingbob]

Now, Now Brad. Bill should be careful not to open the door to his closet but he is entitled to his opinions.

 

Me, I'm personally waiting for the Bill clears his conscience thread like the one Dan wrote.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Michael Naiman

 

NOD member, now banned.

 

Next

 

Bob... was he banned from NOD, these forums...both... I don't know his association to the industry....actually...never heard of him

 

Worked on Overstreet, worked on Comicbook Marketplace, worked with TB & JE on Via.

 

Nice guy, very well-informed, not welcome here because of his outspoken views on CGC and the current market. Which is a shame, as he's one of those guys who has forgotten more than most of us know.

[blazingbob]

Banned from NOD.

 

Being banned from NOD doesn't get you banned from the boards. Or does it?

 

Hmmmm.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Me, I'm personally waiting for the Bill clears his conscience thread like the one Dan wrote.

 

 

[Red Hook]

He voluntarily resigned from NOD when he admitted to not disclosing the sale of books he knew were pressed. He was not cast into the darkness. He was not banished to a gulag. It was not about the pressing of the books, it was about the non-dislosure of the pressing, which is what NOD seeks to promote.

 

Naiman was a longtime member of the Comic Book Marketplace staff and editorial team and has written a large number of interesting articles and interviews, including a really great one wiith the late Carl Barks.

[Red Hook]

Banned from NOD.

 

Being banned from NOD doesn't get you banned from the boards. Or does it?

 

Hmmmm.

 

 

Bob, you're being way to cryptic for this early in the morning.