I guess CGC 9.4 is no longer a guarantee of price retention.

[B-Smooth]

you understood THAT but you didnt get my post.

[Aman619]

Enlightening 1st post. Welcome to the Boards.

 

my sarcasm detector is lighting up....... or did you mean that??

[divad]

dont ask . . . don't tell . . .

=dishonest

 

You are aware Professor Obvious, that it was an extension of YOUR commentary

 

[Straw-Man]

Hes saying that he will not hide any information about the book. If you are an informed collector (im assuming you are), youll ask Matt if the book is pressed or not. He will answer your question honestly or be put out of business quickly. Most books that are pressed are high dollar books anyway, and if you dont know to ask questions about the book before you buy it you are a fool or a sucker. Bill talks to Matt a lot and he has been straight up about everything. I dont see any problems with pressing but i would ask if it were just for my own knowledge, otherwise i would suspect it wasnt pressed.

Caveat first: This question is not directed at Matt directly, but is aimed at the dealers who continue to make the "will disclose if asked" stance.

If a dealer does not disclose that the book is pressed if they know it and only will disclose if asked IS HIDING INFORMATION. How cant they be?

Here is an example:

Say I buy a CGC book graded 7.5. I get it, crack it, and sell it as a 8.5 on Ebay or here on the boards. I dont tell someone that it was a 7.5 unless asked. I would be (and rightfully so) roasted here.

 

 

is the about quote [the 'roasted' part] representative of the majority opinion out there? i can't see it. examples: not to knock cgc, but this ain't science, it's opinions--i've seen books submitted for regrading come back with IMPROVED PAPER QUALITY the second time around, with no change except the passage of time. obviously, the new rating [off-white now, c/ow before] is what we got now, and if i sell the book in this slab, it'll of course be accepted as an off-white book. but if i had disagreed with cgc originally and instead of resubmitting instead broke it out and sold it raw and called the pages off-white in my view, would i be 'rightfully roasted'? well, no--even cgc had a difference of opinion on the paper in seeing it twice------why can't i have a different opinion as well as the seller of a raw book? 'nother example: timely key of mine came back 3.5 purple---'glue on spine.' i thought the glue was minor enuff to get a blue--oh, well. knocked off most of the glue [i didn't glue it to begin with] and with the glue came off a little triangular piece of paper at the spine. looking at the book now would allow the viewer to see a little bit of the margin on page 1 right thru the front cover. resubmitted: thank goodness it now was blue, and now was also 4.5!!!!!!!!!! book's aesthetics went down, grade went up. again, would i have been 'roastable' to sell it raw with big pix and call it a 4.5 in my opinion [always thought it was 5.0'ish, actually]? cgc itself had a variable opinion on the book, so why couldn't I? consensus of opinion is the best we can do within a quarter to maybe a half-grade. No way do i have to agree with cgc's grade while in OR OUT of a slab. and i don't think i have to tell anybody what cgc once thought of the book, no more than that my buddies, who are pretty knowledgeable in the area, have different opinions of the grade as well---question is whether the potential buyer has the same opinion as me, or close enuff to make the deal a deal. my two-cents.

[VintageComics]

Hes saying that he will not hide any information about the book. If you are an informed collector (im assuming you are), youll ask Matt if the book is pressed or not. He will answer your question honestly or be put out of business quickly. Most books that are pressed are high dollar books anyway, and if you dont know to ask questions about the book before you buy it you are a fool or a sucker. Bill talks to Matt a lot and he has been straight up about everything. I dont see any problems with pressing but i would ask if it were just for my own knowledge, otherwise i would suspect it wasnt pressed.

Caveat first: This question is not directed at Matt directly, but is aimed at the dealers who continue to make the "will disclose if asked" stance.

If a dealer does not disclose that the book is pressed if they know it and only will disclose if asked IS HIDING INFORMATION. How cant they be?

Here is an example:

Say I buy a CGC book graded 7.5. I get it, crack it, and sell it as a 8.5 on Ebay or here on the boards. I dont tell someone that it was a 7.5 unless asked. I would be (and rightfully so) roasted here.

 

 

is the about quote [the 'roasted' part] representative of the majority opinion out there? i can't see it. examples: not to knock cgc, but this ain't science, it's opinions--i've seen books submitted for regrading come back with IMPROVED PAPER QUALITY the second time around, with no change except the passage of time. obviously, the new rating [off-white now, c/ow before] is what we got now, and if i sell the book in this slab, it'll of course be accepted as an off-white book. but if i had disagreed with cgc originally and instead of resubmitting instead broke it out and sold it raw and called the pages off-white in my view, would i be 'rightfully roasted'? well, no--even cgc had a difference of opinion on the paper in seeing it twice------why can't i have a different opinion as well as the seller of a raw book? 'nother example: timely key of mine came back 3.5 purple---'glue on spine.' i thought the glue was minor enuff to get a blue--oh, well. knocked off most of the glue [i didn't glue it to begin with] and with the glue came off a little triangular piece of paper at the spine. looking at the book now would allow the viewer to see a little bit of the margin on page 1 right thru the front cover. resubmitted: thank goodness it now was blue, and now was also 4.5!!!!!!!!!! book's aesthetics went down, grade went up. again, would i have been 'roastable' to sell it raw with big pix and call it a 4.5 in my opinion [always thought it was 5.0'ish, actually]? cgc itself had a variable opinion on the book, so why couldn't I? consensus of opinion is the best we can do within a quarter to maybe a half-grade. No way do i have to agree with cgc's grade while in OR OUT of a slab. and i don't think i have to tell anybody what cgc once thought of the book, no more than that my buddies, who are pretty knowledgeable in the area, have different opinions of the grade as well---question is whether the potential buyer has the same opinion as me, or close enuff to make the deal a deal. my two-cents.

 

Now that is an interesting scenario. I've owned a few books that i thought CGC undergraded (grade or PQ). If i crack the book and some time down the road resell (I have yet to do this) because i honestly believe the grade to be incorrect am i dis-honest? If i resub and get a "corrected" grade is CGC dishonest? No on both accounts.

Never thought of it that way.

[Straw-Man]

WANTED: mystic 9 [timely]. anything in one piece/complete and short of killer would probably be on the table.

[VintageComics]

Billy Parker, you can add your want list to your signature so that it is visible with every post you make. Go to "My Home" then scroll down and edit your preferences.

Roy.

[Straw-Man]

thanks Roy; heading over there now to see if i can handle the technology.

[VintageComics]

[jbud73]

Hi.

 

I, for one, appreciate the clarification and agree that the "personal" negative comments are not helpful to the discussion and certainly offensive to you.

 

I guess my concern is for the next buyer or possibly the next or me if I had no knowledge of the history of the comic. I guess I am a little confused about what I should expect out of the old Blue label. Does one now have to assume that any older book with a Universal grade may have been subject to some form of "acceptable" conservation? Why not documment such actions on the label? Too hard to do? Not economically acceptable?

 

I am not sure how I truly feel about this issue, but it seems collectors who purchase CGC books with Blue labels should have the right to know,{up front} whether or not the comic had any type restoration/conservation. IMO.

 

Russ

 

Hi Russ, if any collector wants to inquire about whether the books he's interested in bidding on are pressed, I would certainly disclose that to him.

 

I think there is a general consensus that many collectors would pay less, or not even want a book if they knew it was pressed. This obviously encourages sellers not to disclose pressing. There has to be trust on both sides of the table in order for disclosure to work. (I'm okay buying pressed books, you're okay telling me if it's pressed). As long as there are people crying from the mountaintops about how crooked it all seems to be, that trust will never be established.

 

 

Matt, while I understand that you are working within the parameters of the system Currently in place - I have to say I find it curious as to why the impetus for disclosure should rest with the buyer? That seems to be a catch me if you ask scenerio, rather than catch me if you can.

 

I look at the history of the book in this manner. It was once a CGC certified 9.2. It was purchased, cracked out of its slab, (potentially) had defects removed, re-submitted and finally certified as a 9.4. I find all of that pertinent information regarding an item for sale in an open marketplace. It is also all information that you are in personal possession of as the vendor of this item. Yet, you fail to present this information in the same public forum of which the item is for sale.

 

As reasoning you ellude to the fact that there is a general consensus that collectors pay less for books that have been pressed. A resulting conclusion from that assumption is that collectors view NDP and non-dissassembly cleaned books in a different light, even if CGC does not? Since the people buying your books are in fact NOT CGC, do you not have an obligation to disclose the history of your items to them - especially if that history includes elements that they deem determing factors in their capacity as consumers of your goods???

 

The only matter we seem to agree on currently is that it IS a matter of trust. However I do not see trust from the consumer collector base forthcoming until full disclosure from seller is established as a fundamental protocol.

 

Rgs,

 

Jason

[arexcrooke]

Hes saying that he will not hide any information about the book. If you are an informed collector (im assuming you are), youll ask Matt if the book is pressed or not. He will answer your question honestly or be put out of business quickly. Most books that are pressed are high dollar books anyway, and if you dont know to ask questions about the book before you buy it you are a fool or a sucker. Bill talks to Matt a lot and he has been straight up about everything. I dont see any problems with pressing but i would ask if it were just for my own knowledge, otherwise i would suspect it wasnt pressed.

Caveat first: This question is not directed at Matt directly, but is aimed at the dealers who continue to make the "will disclose if asked" stance.

If a dealer does not disclose that the book is pressed if they know it and only will disclose if asked IS HIDING INFORMATION. How cant they be?

Here is an example:

Say I buy a CGC book graded 7.5. I get it, crack it, and sell it as a 8.5 on Ebay or here on the boards. I dont tell someone that it was a 7.5 unless asked. I would be (and rightfully so) roasted here.

 

Once you crack it, its no longer an 8.5 plus who says CGC is the law when it comes to grading? You may think the grade is an 8.5 and Its up to the buyer to decide the grade once its free from the slab. Its ALL about being an informed consumer. If i buy book X from a dealer, im going to ask all sorts of questions...and if he/she is lieing, THEN they will be fried in this forum and hopefully in the entire comic kingdom. Just my point of view.

I see what you and Parker are saying on that. It revolves around whether you agree with the grade or not and I see that now. The one (non-disclosed pressing) has nothing to do with the other (cracking and deciding on your grade).

[arexcrooke]

dont ask . . . don't tell . . .

=dishonest

 

You are aware Professor Obvious, that it was an extension of YOUR commentary

 

[arexcrooke]

Hi.

 

I, for one, appreciate the clarification and agree that the "personal" negative comments are not helpful to the discussion and certainly offensive to you.

 

I guess my concern is for the next buyer or possibly the next or me if I had no knowledge of the history of the comic. I guess I am a little confused about what I should expect out of the old Blue label. Does one now have to assume that any older book with a Universal grade may have been subject to some form of "acceptable" conservation? Why not documment such actions on the label? Too hard to do? Not economically acceptable?

 

I am not sure how I truly feel about this issue, but it seems collectors who purchase CGC books with Blue labels should have the right to know,{up front} whether or not the comic had any type restoration/conservation. IMO.

 

Russ

 

Hi Russ, if any collector wants to inquire about whether the books he's interested in bidding on are pressed, I would certainly disclose that to him.

 

I think there is a general consensus that many collectors would pay less, or not even want a book if they knew it was pressed. This obviously encourages sellers not to disclose pressing. There has to be trust on both sides of the table in order for disclosure to work. (I'm okay buying pressed books, you're okay telling me if it's pressed). As long as there are people crying from the mountaintops about how crooked it all seems to be, that trust will never be established.

 

I don't understand your position. Why does there have to be "trust" from both sides? What are you trusting the buyer to do? Why do you need to know if I would buy a pressed book before you tell me it is pressed? It makes no sense. Collectors pay less for color touched books. I am sure you would disclose that info up front as soon as a buyer showed interest in the book. Collectors pay less for pressed books. But I have to tell you I don't mind buying pressed books before you tell me it's pressed?

 

Hes saying that he will not hide any information about the book. If you are an informed collector (im assuming you are), youll ask Matt if the book is pressed or not. He will answer your question honestly or be put out of business quickly. Most books that are pressed are high dollar books anyway, and if you dont know to ask questions about the book before you buy it you are a fool or a sucker. Bill talks to Matt a lot and he has been straight up about everything. I dont see any problems with pressing but i would ask if it were just for my own knowledge, otherwise i would suspect it wasnt pressed.

Why should we have to ask about what has or has not been done to a book in the first place? Because it should be disclosed in the auction/transaction from the beginning.

[B-Smooth]

Hi.

 

I, for one, appreciate the clarification and agree that the "personal" negative comments are not helpful to the discussion and certainly offensive to you.

 

I guess my concern is for the next buyer or possibly the next or me if I had no knowledge of the history of the comic. I guess I am a little confused about what I should expect out of the old Blue label. Does one now have to assume that any older book with a Universal grade may have been subject to some form of "acceptable" conservation? Why not documment such actions on the label? Too hard to do? Not economically acceptable?

 

I am not sure how I truly feel about this issue, but it seems collectors who purchase CGC books with Blue labels should have the right to know,{up front} whether or not the comic had any type restoration/conservation. IMO.

 

Russ

 

Hi Russ, if any collector wants to inquire about whether the books he's interested in bidding on are pressed, I would certainly disclose that to him.

 

I think there is a general consensus that many collectors would pay less, or not even want a book if they knew it was pressed. This obviously encourages sellers not to disclose pressing. There has to be trust on both sides of the table in order for disclosure to work. (I'm okay buying pressed books, you're okay telling me if it's pressed). As long as there are people crying from the mountaintops about how crooked it all seems to be, that trust will never be established.

 

I don't understand your position. Why does there have to be "trust" from both sides? What are you trusting the buyer to do? Why do you need to know if I would buy a pressed book before you tell me it is pressed? It makes no sense. Collectors pay less for color touched books. I am sure you would disclose that info up front as soon as a buyer showed interest in the book. Collectors pay less for pressed books. But I have to tell you I don't mind buying pressed books before you tell me it's pressed?

 

Hes saying that he will not hide any information about the book. If you are an informed collector (im assuming you are), youll ask Matt if the book is pressed or not. He will answer your question honestly or be put out of business quickly. Most books that are pressed are high dollar books anyway, and if you dont know to ask questions about the book before you buy it you are a fool or a sucker. Bill talks to Matt a lot and he has been straight up about everything. I dont see any problems with pressing but i would ask if it were just for my own knowledge, otherwise i would suspect it wasnt pressed.

Why should we have to ask about what has or has not been done to a book in the first place? Because it should be disclosed in the auction/transaction from the beginning.

 

In any business transactions i ALWAYS ask the questions and not rely on the seller to disclose information. Just my way I guess. Im not very trusting when it comes to purchasing things, especially "used" things.

[arexcrooke]

Im not disagreeing with you on asking. I am now asking the same questions with books I am buying.

However, I think the crux for me is that if they know and dont tell withouth prompting then they are being dishonest.

[B-Smooth]

Im not disagreeing with you on asking. I am now asking the same questions with books I am buying.

However, I think the crux for me is that if they know and dont tell withouth prompting then they are being dishonest.

 

You may be right but Matt is a good guy and i just cant see him doing this. Others, I cant vouch for.

[Matt Nelson]

As reasoning you ellude to the fact that there is a general consensus that collectors pay less for books that have been pressed. A resulting conclusion from that assumption is that collectors view NDP and non-dissassembly cleaned books in a different light, even if CGC does not? Since the people buying your books are in fact NOT CGC, do you not have an obligation to disclose the history of your items to them - especially if that history includes elements that they deem determing factors in their capacity as consumers of your goods???

 

 

The general consensus I was referring to were posters on the boards, not the marketplace in general. Yes, some posters do view pressing in a different light, or else this string would not exist.

 

I, like CGC, don't think it is an issue that requires disclosure. However, as a dealer in the marketplace, and in the interest of goodwill, if a person asks me something about a book that I have an answer to, I would tell them.

 

Here's a good analogy: a car dealer selling his car discloses the model year, the mileage, the options, and puts a price on it. If a prospective buyer wants to know more about that car, he can ask all the questions he can think of that will help him reach an informed decision. The dealer, to maintain goodwill if nothing else, should answer. But the suggestion that the car was first owned by a 16 year old who just got their license, and who's hobby was racing dune buggies, needs to be told by the dealer to the prospective buyer automatically, and not in response to a question, seems preposterous to me.

[arexcrooke]

The general consensus I was referring to were posters on the boards, not the marketplace in general. Yes, some posters do view pressing in a different light, or else this string would not exist.

How do you know that the general market cares or not if it is not disclosed? Not an attack on you Matt, but just a general observation.

 

I, like CGC, don't think it is an issue that requires disclosure. However, as a dealer in the marketplace, and in the interest of goodwill, if a person asks me something about a book that I have an answer to, I would tell them.

Obviously I dont agree with you, but that is your opinion. Thats cool with me

 

Here's a good analogy: a car dealer selling his car discloses the model year, the mileage, the options, and puts a price on it. If a prospective buyer wants to know more about that car, he can ask all the questions he can think of that will help him reach an informed decision. The dealer, to maintain goodwill if nothing else, should answer. But the suggestion that the car was first owned by a 16 year old who just got their license, and who's hobby was racing dune buggies, needs to be told by the dealer to the prospective buyer automatically, and not in response to a question, seems preposterous to me.

Actually Matt, thats an aweful analogy. Maybe you should have drawn the analogy to whether the dealer knows the car was wrecked and then fixed. The dunebuggy racing has nothing to do with the car. However, if it was wrecked that would be info that needed to be disclosed.

[arexcrooke]

Im not disagreeing with you on asking. I am now asking the same questions with books I am buying.

However, I think the crux for me is that if they know and dont tell withouth prompting then they are being dishonest.

 

You may be right but Matt is a good guy and i just cant see him doing this. Others, I cant vouch for.

Again, this isnt an attack on Matt, but how do you know he is a good guy? How do we know that anyone is a good guy/gal? We dont. We can place a measure of trust in them, but do we really know if someone is a "good" guy or gal? Take a look at what has happened with Doug. I wouldnt lump him into the good guy class right now, would you?

I dunno.

I do realize that Im spliting hairs and being obtuse.

[jbud73]

As reasoning you ellude to the fact that there is a general consensus that collectors pay less for books that have been pressed. A resulting conclusion from that assumption is that collectors view NDP and non-dissassembly cleaned books in a different light, even if CGC does not? Since the people buying your books are in fact NOT CGC, do you not have an obligation to disclose the history of your items to them - especially if that history includes elements that they deem determing factors in their capacity as consumers of your goods???

 

 

The general consensus I was referring to were posters on the boards, not the marketplace in general. Yes, some posters do view pressing in a different light, or else this string would not exist.

 

I, like CGC, don't think it is an issue that requires disclosure. However, as a dealer in the marketplace, and in the interest of goodwill, if a person asks me something about a book that I have an answer to, I would tell them.

 

Here's a good analogy: a car dealer selling his car discloses the model year, the mileage, the options, and puts a price on it. If a prospective buyer wants to know more about that car, he can ask all the questions he can think of that will help him reach an informed decision. The dealer, to maintain goodwill if nothing else, should answer. But the suggestion that the car was first owned by a 16 year old who just got their license, and who's hobby was racing dune buggies, needs to be told by the dealer to the prospective buyer automatically, and not in response to a question, seems preposterous to me.

 

 

To pick up on your analogy, but to make it more pertinent to what you are actually doing to the books - we are not totally talking about previous ownership here. My rebuttle would be. I see NDP and ND cleaning more along the lines of a car dealer knowingly performing work on the car that altered its physical state and failing to disclose that at the time of purchase. Something most car buyers have a serious issue with and for which organizations and standards have been established to protect the buyer from after the fact.

 

Again Mr. Nelson I can debate semantics and analogous arguements with you until I'm blue in the face. Actually I am quite saddened by 3 things I observe in the HG comics market these days.

 

1. The condescending nature of the debate. The "well if I and the industries leading arbitrator do not feel its pertinent info, then everyone else should not think its important either." However, I find people have a funny way of determining what they do and do not feel is important when it comes to items they purchase with their money.

 

2. The hypocritical nature of the arguement. Most of the people who use the arguement mentioned in item #1 are in fact deriving large profits from their abuse of the consensus they have achieved and expect us to accept.

 

3. The inverse nature of the reasoning, so prevalent in the "well I will if asked" position. This is tied to the evasive nature of responses that concern this topic, my favorite .... When the knowledge of crack, press, resub first came to light there were many accusations levelled and speculation ran rampant. Certain high profile dealers at the time were questioned, "Do you Press Books?" at least two (Metro and Ewert) responded a adamant NO. It only became common knowledge later that THEY personally did NOT press books, but HAD THEM PRESSED BY OTHER PEOPLE. in their mind this semantic loophole allowed them to answer in the fashion that they did and deflect impropriety away.

 

My point Mr. Nelson is quite simple, until disclosure is freely adopted by the industry junta that practices the tactics we have been discussing - the issue of impropriety will never cease. It truly surprises me that the crack, NDP and resub vendors seem to fear the truth of full disclosure to such a large extent that they do not see their difficulty in publishing this knowledge may indeed be more harmful than the secrecy it has been shrouded in from the outset.

 

In this regard they are truly becoming Used Car Dealers - an apt and sad analogy that unfortunately Mr. Nelson seems to identify with in the context of the current argeument.

 

In any event I do appreciate the opportunity for dialogue restoman has presented, if nothing else than to gauge his mindset at this juncture.