Valiant - how much did it do for the comic industry (good or bad)?

[joe_collector]

Valiantman and I have spoken about this in the past, and it really comes down to the accepted practice by smaller, independant publishers to sign side-contracts to sell books on the side.

 

Lots of 1980's independants did this as well, and undisclosed cases found their way into various dealer's hands.

[blowout]

Valiantman and I have spoken about this in the past, and it really comes down to the accepted practice by smaller, independant publishers to sign side-contracts to sell books on the side.

 

Lots of 1980's independants did this as well, and undisclosed cases found their way into various dealer's hands.

 

Does Valiantman attempt to incorporate these extra books into the print numbers on his site? Or are we just looking at the 'official print run' there?

[joe_collector]

Does Valiantman attempt to incorporate these extra books into the print numbers on his site? Or are we just looking at the 'official print run' there?

 

Does it really matter anymore? The only valuable Valiants are the really limited editions with only a few hundred or thousand books, not the actual comics.

[blowout]

Does Valiantman attempt to incorporate these extra books into the print numbers on his site? Or are we just looking at the 'official print run' there?

 

Does it really matter anymore? The only valuable Valiants are the really limited editions with only a few hundred or thousand books, not the actual comics.

 

It doesn't matter in investment terms no. I am just interested in what REALLY went on back then.

[valiantman]

Valiantman and I have spoken about this in the past, and it really comes down to the accepted practice by smaller, independant publishers to sign side-contracts to sell books on the side.

 

Lots of 1980's independants did this as well, and undisclosed cases found their way into various dealer's hands.

 

Does Valiantman attempt to incorporate these extra books into the print numbers on his site? Or are we just looking at the 'official print run' there?

 

The "rumor mill" had Rai #3 & Rai #4 at "under 25,000 copies".

 

I agree with Joe_Collector that those are "artificially low" numbers from the "rumor-hype days".

 

The real number is likely to be 35,000 copies... which is 40% higher than the 25,000 "rumor".

 

The numbers on my site (valiantcomics.com) reflect the more-accurate counts,

which are almost always higher than the original rumored amounts.

 

Still, 35,000 was an awfully low number for 1992. (vs. X-Men #1, Spawn #1, etc.)

 

Pre-Unity books (Valiant 1991-early1992) seemed to have all the right qualities:

excellent stories, nice art, tight continuity, a strong following,

low print (compared to others of the day), and that "media-darling" status.

 

By the time I heard about Valiant, it was already too late.

Unity had just ended, and the Pre-Unity books were either priced

astronomically high, or they weren't even for sale in my local shops.

 

My own Valiant collection wasn't much beyond the post-Unity books of 1992-94...

until I discovered Ebay in 1997.

 

Valiant turns "15" this year... since the first superhero books were printed in 1991...

so I guess this is the "half-way point" to the magic comic age of "30".

 

I tend to agree with Joe_Collector on another point...

there are only a few Valiant books that deserve any recognition today.

 

The Pre-Unity books are already very high-quality books, at any print run,

and because they're all under 100,000 (most closer to 50,000)...

the lower print runs are a bonus.

 

The lowest print run books (such as the incentives) are usually "rarer",

but generally that's the only value factor... since the regular versions

of those same books are only a couple bucks,

the value is solely in the print run...

which is always a very dangerous way to "invest".

(Anyone collecting today's variants take note!)

 

About 95% of all Valiant books in print aren't worth cover price to me,

or to most Valiant collectors.

(Compared to Marvel or DC of the early 1990s, though, 5% quality is a goldmine!)

 

Here's a nice article by Ryan McLelland looking back at Valiant,

originally posted on Newsarama a couple years ago:

http://valiantcomics.com/valiant/valiantdays.asp

 

Sadly, my website is now "older" than Valiant was when it "died"...

Valiant 1991-1996... ValiantComics.com 1999-2006(and still going...)

 

There are 800+ registered members on the messageboard, ValiantFans.com

(Though, like any internet board, the number of active members is much smaller.)

[the blob]

low print runs "for the era". pretty average print-runs for today though.

 

i don't see huge #s of the early ones floating around, though there are plenty to be had and 50,000 copies is plenty to meet demand nowadays. certainly not rare, but not a glut either. probably worth (nowadays) what they should be worth all things considered. $7-$10 for the stuff that used to be $75-$125, $3-$6 for the stuff that used to be $25 or so. a nickel for the stuff that was printed in the cajillions. heck, if harbinger was at issue # 150 right now, maybe it should be worth more because it shows there's a following, but these are dead titles.

[the blob]

the prices i'm citing are for unslabbed, of course

[valiantman]

low print runs "for the era". pretty average print-runs for today though.

 

i don't see huge #s of the early ones floating around, though there are plenty to be had and 50,000 copies is plenty to meet demand nowadays. certainly not rare, but not a glut either. probably worth (nowadays) what they should be worth all things considered. $7-$10 for the stuff that used to be $75-$125, $3-$6 for the stuff that used to be $25 or so. a nickel for the stuff that was printed in the cajillions. heck, if harbinger was at issue # 150 right now, maybe it should be worth more because it shows there's a following, but these are dead titles.

 

I agree... even a revival of the titles/characters is likely to be "unsuccessful" compared

to the print runs of the 1990s... regardless of the quality of the hypothetical relaunch.

 

Particular books from the Valiant line have a nice secondary market value "unslabbed" in NM condition...

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/mostwanted.asp

...but most are still quarter-bin fodder due to overprinting/underdemand.

 

Turok #1 is easily the most overprinted of the Valiant line, with 1.75Million copies...

but it actually ranked only 6th in print run for the year of 1993...

with Adventures of Superman #500 coming in at #1 (3Million-6Million copies)

and each of the four "return of Superman" books rounding out the top 5.

 

Valiant may have contributed to the fall... but it definitely wasn't the only culprit.

[Psiknight]

low print runs "for the era". pretty average print-runs for today though.

 

i don't see huge #s of the early ones floating around, though there are plenty to be had and 50,000 copies is plenty to meet demand nowadays. certainly not rare, but not a glut either. probably worth (nowadays) what they should be worth all things considered. $7-$10 for the stuff that used to be $75-$125, $3-$6 for the stuff that used to be $25 or so. a nickel for the stuff that was printed in the cajillions. heck, if harbinger was at issue # 150 right now, maybe it should be worth more because it shows there's a following, but these are dead titles.

 

I agree... even a revival of the titles/characters is likely to be "unsuccessful" compared

to the print runs of the 1990s... regardless of the quality of the hypothetical relaunch.

 

Particular books from the Valiant line have a nice secondary market value "unslabbed" in NM condition...

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/mostwanted.asp

...but most are still quarter-bin fodder due to overprinting/underdemand.

 

Turok #1 is easily the most overprinted of the Valiant line, with 1.75Million copies...

but it actually ranked only 6th in print run for the year of 1993...

with Adventures of Superman #500 coming in at #1 (3Million-6Million copies)

and each of the four "return of Superman" books rounding out the top 5.

 

Valiant may have contributed to the fall... but it definitely wasn't the only culprit.

 

I still have very, very fond memories of my valiant books. I have really poor memories of the influx of speculators. I'm probably going to pick up some of the rarer books...Harbinger 0 (pink), the Magnus/Predator TPB, etc in high grade. I feel that my nostalgia plus their halfway decent collectability make them good buys for me. I'm not sure that even the Rai 3, 4 are great collectors items since they have a pretty high run. But Harb 0 (3,400 copies redeemed but how many were produced?) seems decent...and I always wanted one.

[Earl Davis]

As once of the remaining 'Modern Indy Collectors' it keeps making me smile with all these 'low' print run Valiants. These days a print run of 3,000 is a great result for an Indy book. Here are the Alias Enterprises stats so far for 2005 books for example...

 

Elisnore

 

#1: 9795

#2: 4052

#3: 3400

 

Tenth Muse

 

#1: 6181 for all four covers together

#2: 4598 for all three covers together

#3: 3900 for all three covers together

#4: 3480 for all three covers together

#5: 3218 for all three covers

#6: 2885 for both covers

 

Deal with the Devil

 

#1: 8341

#2: 3600

#3: 2800

 

Judo Girl

 

#1: 4245 for all 3 covers together

#2: 3441 for both covers together

#3: 2996 for both covers together

#4: 2765 for both covers together

 

Legend of Isis

 

#1: 6470 for all 3 covers together

#2: 4342 1 Cover Only

#3: 3790 for both covers together

#4: 3685 for both covers

#5: 3548 for both covers

 

XIII

 

#1: 8800

#2: 3705 (not including overship)

#3: 3100

 

 

Pakkins Land

 

#1: 1716

#2: 1400

#3: 1275

 

 

Killer Stunts

 

#1: 7029

#2: 2798

#3: 2556

 

Lethal Instinct

 

#1: 8370

#2: 3200

#3: 2670

#4: 2400 for both covers

 

David Shepherds Song

 

#1: 1400

 

Devil's Keeper

 

#1: 4705

#2: 2216 (not including overship of 470)

 

Six Gun Samurai

 

#1: 3465 (not including overship)

#2: 2050

 

Lullaby

 

#1: 7,904 (not including overship of 721)

[fastballspecial]

Personally I only collected Eternal Warrior and I loved that title. I am still trying to find issues like 43-47 and issue 50. I loved the flashbacks and his eternally enemy. It gave me a Highlander feel to it. I hated to see it go.

 

I have a letter I got printed in Overstreet years ago about Valiant and how rare their books must have been because they didnt have a newstand contract at the time. I was teenager at the time just out of high school. Ah youth!

[jduran1]

Valiants have some of the most beautiful covers ever created for comics. They were brilliant marketing people. The low print runs and the cult status of the Bloodshot #0 Plat error make these fun to collect and search for. I know I will find a Plat #0 in someones attic someday. Jim Shooter did a lot for the comic business and if we had a Comics Hall Of Fame (Which we should have) he would be a first ballot inductee.

[langur88]

Do you think Valiant had a big part in the "fall" of the comic industry in ths 90s?

 

Sure it did, but the main contributors to the comic book crash are:

 

1. Stupid speculators

2. Stupid comic store owners

3. Wizard

4. Comic book companies playing up 1, 2 and 3

 

[boomtown]

Jim Shooter did a lot for the comic business and if we had a Comics Hall Of Fame (Which we should have) he would be a first ballot inductee.

 

 

Shooter has always seemed over-rated to me. Let's see:

 

1) Claim to fame was writing the Legion when he was 14. Sure, it was every fanboys dream, but really, the stories didn't hold up too well unless you were a 12 year old. I still have fond memories of his later Legion work, but that was more because of Mike Grell.

 

2) Went to Marvel in the eighties , became editor in chief & was responsible for for Secret Wars & the unbearable Secret War II. I believe he was also the writer for the Korvac Saga in the Avengers, which started off well but really went south as it went on. New Universe anyone? At least it was a blue print for his later Valiant success.

 

Managed to [embarrassing lack of self control] off quite a bit of Marvel's top talent, who refused to work for Marvel until Shooter was dumped.

 

3) Created the VALIANT universe, with Barry Smith & Bob Layton also having some sort of involvement. This was great for about 2 years & then it was total dreck, the poster child for what was wrong with the 90s.

 

4) Warriors of Plasm...can't even remember the name of the company. It started out as a gimmick card/comic but the fans had already seen this act & refused to bite.

 

Hall of Fame?

[fastballspecial]

Jim Shooter did a lot for the comic business and if we had a Comics Hall Of Fame (Which we should have) he would be a first ballot inductee.

 

 

Shooter has always seemed over-rated to me. Let's see:

 

1) Claim to fame was writing the Legion when he was 14. Sure, it was every fanboys dream, but really, the stories didn't hold up too well unless you were a 12 year old. I still have fond memories of his later Legion work, but that was more because of Mike Grell.

 

2) Went to Marvel in the eighties , became editor in chief & was responsible for for Secret Wars & the unbearable Secret War II. I believe he was also the writer for the Korvac Saga in the Avengers, which started off well but really went south as it went on. New Universe anyone? At least it was a blue print for his later Valiant success.

 

Managed to [embarrassing lack of self control] off quite a bit of Marvel's top talent, who refused to work for Marvel until Shooter was dumped.

 

3) Created the VALIANT universe, with Barry Smith & Bob Layton also having some sort of involvement. This was great for about 2 years & then it was total dreck, the poster child for what was wrong with the 90s.

 

4) Warriors of Plasm...can't even remember the name of the company. It started out as a gimmick card/comic but the fans had already seen this act & refused to bite.

 

Hall of Fame?

 

I have to agree with Jduran on this one. The reason artists left Marvel in the 80s correctly was because of Shooter. BUT it was because he demanded their books be on time, within continuity, and he didnt put up with their whiny [embarrassing lack of self control].

 

Marvel in the late 70s and thru mid 80s was never better in the last 30 years or so. The books were great on continuity, his Avengers Korvac run is one the top 3 storylines ever in the Avengers, and unlike today they made their deadlines.

 

Valiant was incredible during his run they didnt go downhill till he left and it was sold to Acclaim which had to clue what do with it and still doesnt.

 

There was nothing wrong with the original Secret Wars it was fun event that was at least covered and addressed in all books? Can you say the same today? Ill give you SW II it was a real stinkeroo. Marvel hasnt had a Top Dog like Shooter since and their in lies there problem.

[fiendish]

Defiant Comics was Shooter's post-Valiant publisher. (Apparently "Thin-Skinned Comics" didn't test well.)

 

"Plasm" was actually a great first issue (the "Zero" you had to patiently build from the collectors cards). It vividly describes a disturbing universe in which everything--all objects--are alive and enslaved by the master race of humans, who have learned to genetically create (and destroy) almost anything. I read it back in 1993 and it stays with me today.

 

The series itself largely failed to deliver on that promising start. The story was soon confused when a random group of humans showed up to teach the Plasm universe how to be nice...there was a Christmas trade paperback (?!?)...

 

Never was clear on the exact story of how exactly Shooter lost control (or favor) at Valiant. Anyone know that story?

[matewan1990]

There was nothing wrong with the original Secret Wars it was fun event that was at least covered and addressed in all books? Can you say the same today? Ill give you SW II it was a real stinkeroo. Marvel hasnt had a Top Dog like Shooter since and their in lies there problem.

 

I have to disagree. For a while there, during the Quesada and Jemas era, Marvel had some great stuff, like Grant Morrison's New X-Men, Peter Milligan's and Mike Allred's X-Force and X-Statix and Bruce Jones's Hulk. Fantastic Four was pretty good, as was Daredevil. Avengers was also good with Busiek and Perez. Iron Man with Busiek writing and Sean Chen drawing was good, and the Quesada-scripted Iron Man saga was pretty good, too. Marvel under Shooter was great, no doubt about that. But, there were some bright spots under QueJemasada that were pretty good, too. Despite all the trash-talking and lame ideas like a gay Rawhide Kid (yeah, I said it; that was about the worst idea ever and is now being written off as being a MAX version of the character and not the Rawhide Kid in the true Marvel Universe) that era was pretty good, creatively.

[valiantman]

Never was clear on the exact story of how exactly Shooter lost control (or favor) at Valiant. Anyone know that story?

Jim Shooter interview from 1998:

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/joe/shooter/

Jim being fired is explained (in his own words) about half-way down.

[fastballspecial]

I read all of it and I gathered two basic ideas.

 

1.) He got screwed royally.

 

2.) My opinion of Bob Layton has hit a new low.

 

.. This is assuming that everything written there is accurate.

[sckao]

 

Let's not forget that Shooter was partly responsible for the Dark Phoenix Saga's ending in X-men #137 with the Death of Dark Phoenix.

 

Claremont and Byrne's original ending was to depower her, but Shooter felt that her punishment needed to fit the crime (genocide.)