Pressing project results--post here

[Matt Nelson]

Why do people always say "BSDs" when talking about people who press books? I know people who don't own a single book worth over $1000 who have had books pressed. This is really not a "haves vs. have nots" issue.

 

I agree with you 100%. People who think pressing is a game played only by the BSD's are being short sighted. There are a large (and growing) number of collectors who are pressing. And yes, many of them don't handle $1000+ books.

[Rip]

One thing I may missed in this thread is regarding the spine. I know in the past some people are worried whether or not the book (spine) would still have that "clam shell appearance" or would look like it spent its life sandwiched in a short box crammed full of 500 comics.

 

Well let me tell you the books I sent in still have that "clam shell appearance".

I was very happy in this regard.

[Matt Nelson]

 

But if disclosure is to ever move foward, and pressing is to become more accepted for what it is I think it needs to be determined wether or not the different types of pressing should be dealt with the same way the various forms of recognized restoration are.

 

Kenny, I have to be honest. Pressing is already accepted, and disclosure is not going to move forward because it's impractical for so many different reasons. I'm not saying this to be arrogant, or because it fits my business model. I have had many discussions with just about everyone in this business concerning the issues at hand--this is what I do for a living, after all. Pressing has been around since before I was born, and will continue regardless of any outcome of any argument, because in the practical world, it works.

 

This is not a practice whose fate is being decided as we speak. It is a practice that is going strong, and growing stronger every passing week. It is not the BSD's vs. the little guys, nor the pressers vs. the non-pressers, nor CGC vs. everyone else.

 

I came to the conclusion long ago that it would be better if pressing was shared with everyone, rather than keeping it to myself. If pressing is not going to go away, isn't it better to level the playing field and give everyone the same opportunity? Personally, I'd rather give a guy the chance to get his own upgrades before releasing his books into the market. Because if he doesn't, someone else will.

 

So make pressing as widely known as possible, so everyone can make their own decision regarding their books. But if you go about it in a negative way, which is what the prevailing attitude is on the boards, you're propagating the very stigma that people blame on pressing. It's like telling your best friend you hate his girlfriend, and then the guy ends up marrying her. Now you've got a choice; either make nice with the girlfriend, or go find a new best friend. (pulps, maybe? I hear big little books are coming back)

 

Word is being spread through the message boards, Scoop and GPA newsletters, advertising, and word of mouth. It's not a disease that is running rampant through the hobby. It is simply a tool used when buying and selling comics--just like slabbing, auction houses, the internet, and the price guide. This is not my opinion. This is fact, proven by the number of people pressing, selling and knowingly buying pressed books. It is a business that works, period.

[Matt Nelson]

Back of the book, which in Matt's words was "mangled".

 

After scan.......

 

 

Sorry about the mangled comment! I was being a little loose with my verbage there. I was actually really happy with the way the Strange Tales came out, given the numerous impacts that went entirely through the book. Scans just don't do it justice.

 

In regards to those areas I didn't remove completely...were there color breaks there? If so, there is no point in pressing them out, since the breaks won't go away.

 

Even though that particular book may have not been the best candidate because of its value (and a few key defects), I think it exhibited the best results of the pressing process. And that darn Supergirl #1...Divad, post scans of that thing!

[Matt Nelson]

And I assume you could have made those stress marks disappear if you'd taken this demonstration to the next level...right?

 

Ha ha, Brad, I keep telling you, there is no "next level!" These books were all pressed the same as I would any others. If someone wants to test this, they should anonymously submit a few books to me, and then post the results. I'm really surprised someone hasn't done this already.

[Matt Nelson]

 

As for the rest of your post, I agree with all your points about it being restoration, but I don't think we'll ever get to the point where dealers will feel comfortable disclosing pressing so long as there are a few vocal people who scream with evangelical fury that pressers are greedy scum suckers who should rot in hell (or some such). Personally, I don't know why dealers really care what those few collectors say, but it seems that they do.

 

 

 

Well, they keep acting like it's a scam, so it feeds itself.

 

Also. if the general public and comic buying masses became aware of the issues about pressing (even it's existance)....they'd lose a little control over the lid that's been kept on the discussion (mainly limited to these boards) and who knows where that might lead.

 

Besides, a most of the critics of non-disclosure are not name-calling or screaming at all. Give us a little credit.

 

I disagree with how much you think pressing is contained at this point. Maybe your statement was true two years ago, but pressing is very widely known at this point. Look at Scoop and GPA the past couple months. I've been advertising pressing in the Overstreet for two issues, and it's been on my website since 2001. Tracey Heft has advertised in CBG for a couple years, and Matt Wilson was even handing out fliers at shows last year. Throw in the panel discussions, Vin's radio show, the message boards, and good 'ole word of mouth, and I think you've got just about all of the bases covered.

 

Does every single collector or dealer know yet? No. But I'd say that, if you actively buy and sell high grade books today, and you're smart enough to educate yourself given the vast amount of information available to you through your keyboard, you probably already know about pressing. This whole thing about a "dirty secret" just doesn't wash anymore.

[Davenport]

 

I came to the conclusion long ago that it would be better if pressing was shared with everyone, rather than keeping it to myself. If pressing is not going to go away, isn't it better to level the playing field and give everyone the same opportunity? Personally, I'd rather give a guy the chance to get his own upgrades before releasing his books into the market. Because if he doesn't, someone else will.

 

This is where I get lost. How can the playing field be level if a success-technique lies in the hands of, what?, four or five people in the whole hobby? (how many pro-pressing services are there?). A technique usually left undisclosed out on the playing field. How?

 

Scenario: two people list CGC 8.5s for sale. Niether one is listed as pressed, but one is. One guy sells his 8.5 (that used to be a 7.5, now pressed to 8.5). Cha-ching. And buys the other guy's 8.5, knowing it will press it to 9.2. Cha-ching again.

 

How in the world is that a level playing field????? Seriously, and with all respect. How is it any different than an athelete who uses steroids, or a car saleman who rolls back odometers, or a grocer who alters expiration dates???

[Matt Nelson]

 

I came to the conclusion long ago that it would be better if pressing was shared with everyone, rather than keeping it to myself. If pressing is not going to go away, isn't it better to level the playing field and give everyone the same opportunity? Personally, I'd rather give a guy the chance to get his own upgrades before releasing his books into the market. Because if he doesn't, someone else will.

 

This is where I get lost. How can the playing field be level if a success-technique lies in the hands of, what?, four or five people in the whole hobby? (how many pro-pressing services are there?). A technique usually left undisclosed out on the playing field. How?

 

Scenario: two people list CGC 8.5s for sale. Niether one is listed as pressed, but one is. One guy sells his 8.5 (that used to be a 7.5, now pressed to 8.5). Cha-ching. And buys the other guy's 8.5, knowing it will press it to 9.2. Cha-ching again.

 

How in the world is that a level playing field????? Seriously, and with all respect. How is it any different than an athelete who uses steroids, or a car saleman who rolls back odometers, or a grocer who alters expiration dates???

 

First of all, all three of your comparisons are illegal, as far as I know. Pressing is not. Not appropriate analogies.

 

The level playing field does not come from the number of people pressing. It comes from whether those pressers offer their services to everyone else, rather than keep it secret, while they go around buying up books and hoping no one ever figures out what's going on.

 

What if the owner of that unpressed 8.5 had a professional press it to 9.2 before he offered it for sale? That is how the playing field is leveled.

[Ze-man]

 

,So make pressing as widely known as possible so everyone can make their own decision regarding their books.

 

But if you go about it in a negative way, which is what the prevailing attitude is on the boards, you're propagating the very stigma that people blame on pressing.

 

 

So make pressing as widely known as possible meaning "Make pressing as widely known as possible so the people buying your books in your Ebay auctions know the book was probably pressed?"

 

Or make pressing as widely known as possible "So people know you will press a book for them?"

 

Do you list your pressing service in your Ebay auctions? I see, restoration, conservation, restoration removal but no pressing service offered... that would be a perfect way to reach the masses if you ask me. Educating the public and free advertising built right into your auctions.

 

Sorry Matt to me it sounds like you are doing anything but making pressing as widespread as possible in the one place that needs it most. This forum, GPA, Scoop already knows about pressing. Most ebayers do not.

 

And to be clear, the boards negative view of pressing of more centered around lack of disclosure. Not the act of pressing itself. And if it is not a disease, it is at the very least..running rampant.

 

Sorry Matt as I see it you want it both ways. You say Pressing is not a disease, yet you keep that fact hidden from view on your site.

 

I know this all comes off as negative,and only bashing you. But I felt the need to challenge you when you say things like this. You are a leader in your field, your actions speak loudly to those following your leader.

 

Ze-

[Davenport]

 

First of all, all three of your comparisons are illegal, as far as I know. Pressing is not. Not appropriate analogies.

 

The level playing field does not come from the number of people pressing. It comes from whether those pressers offer their services to everyone else, rather than keep it secret, while they go around buying up books and hoping no one ever figures out what's going on.

 

What if the owner of that unpressed 8.5 had a professional press it to 9.2 before he offered it for sale? That is how the playing field is leveled.

Thank you for your explanation, and I respect it. I disagree because almost any enterprise can profit from unseen advantages. Yes, society makes many of them illegal, like insider trading or the ones I mentioned, because they're unfair if left undisclosed.

 

To me it's like a Doctor thinking it's a level playing field because he offers super-performance enhancers to everyone. Even if the enhancers are perfectly legal, without disclosure it still creates an unlevel the playing field. Yes? Public judgements of "best" are unwittingly flawed from lack of knowledge.

 

Just a healthy difference of opinion.

[Matt Nelson]

 

,So make pressing as widely known as possible so everyone can make their own decision regarding their books.

 

But if you go about it in a negative way, which is what the prevailing attitude is on the boards, you're propagating the very stigma that people blame on pressing.

 

 

So make pressing as widely known as possible meaning "Make pressing as widely known as possible so the people buying your books in your Ebay auctions know the book was probably pressed?"

 

Or make pressing as widely known as possible "So people know you will press a book for them?"

 

Do you list your pressing service in your Ebay auctions? I see, restoration, conservation, restoration removal but no pressing service offered... that would be a perfect way to reach the masses if you ask me. Educating the public and free advertising built right into your auctions.

 

Sorry Matt to me it sounds like you are doing anything but making pressing as widespread as possible in the one place that needs it most. This forum, GPA, Scoop already knows about pressing. Most ebayers do not.

 

And to be clear, the boards negative view of pressing of more centered around lack of disclosure. Not the act of pressing itself. And if it is not a disease, it is at the very least..running rampant.

 

Sorry Matt as I see it you want it both ways. You say Pressing is not a disease, yet you keep that fact hidden from view on your site.

 

I know this all comes off as negative,and only bashing you. But I felt the need to challenge you when you say things like this. You are a leader in your field, your actions speak loudly to those following your leader.

 

Ze-

 

I refer to pressing as conservation on my list of services--so it is listed on my ebay auctions. I don't keep anything hidden from sight. And I disagree that Ebay needs widespread pressing. I don't think anybody needs anything. But everybody, regardless of whether they buy and sell on ebay, or anywhere else, should know what tools are at their disposal.

 

Classics Inc is a service based business that includes many other things besides pressing. It's not my job to hoist pressing onto the masses, besides the cursory advertising for my services. I'm saying you let as many people in on it as possible. This is after all the point of our discussions--education of the masses.

[namisgr]

The argument that pressing has been around forever and has impacted a large number of books doesn't settle all the issues surrounding it.

 

My biggest beef concerns the crack/press/resubmit game being played by at least two of the well-known online auction/sales sites. You know, the ones that receive books to sell or auction, occasionally buy some of said books site-seen, press and resub them, and sell them at a higher grade for an enormous profit. Let's face it, these sites are making as much money, if not more, from this aspect of their biz than the buyer and seller commissions they take in.

 

In this regard, the playing field has never been less "level" than today, and that's a major unresolved problem with pressing.

 

P.S.: Please lose the notion that pressing is a form of conservation, since it in no way, shape, or form meets any accepted definition of the term.

[Matt Nelson]

 

First of all, all three of your comparisons are illegal, as far as I know. Pressing is not. Not appropriate analogies.

 

The level playing field does not come from the number of people pressing. It comes from whether those pressers offer their services to everyone else, rather than keep it secret, while they go around buying up books and hoping no one ever figures out what's going on.

 

What if the owner of that unpressed 8.5 had a professional press it to 9.2 before he offered it for sale? That is how the playing field is leveled.

Thank you for your explanation, and I respect it. I disagree because almost any enterprise can profit from unseen advantages. Yes, society makes many of them illegal, like insider trading or the ones I mentioned, because they're unfair if left undisclosed.

 

To me it's like a Doctor thinking it's a level playing field because he offers super-performance enhancers to everyone. Even if the enhancers are perfectly legal, without disclosure it still creates an unlevel the playing field. Yes? Public judgements of "best" are unwittingly flawed from lack of knowledge.

 

Just a healthy difference of opinion.

 

But what if those enhancers are untraceable? And no one will ever stop taking the enhancers? At that point, it's a matter of making sure everyone is aware of the enhancers so they can make an educated decision for themselves. (the analogy I'm making assumes enhancers are NOT detrimental to a person's well-being. Also, I'm dreading the eventual comparisons between pressing and "enhancing." Not my point, but we'll see what is said)

[Matt Nelson]

The argument that pressing has been around forever and has impacted a large number of books doesn't settle all the issues surrounding it.

 

My biggest beef concerns the crack/press/resubmit game being played by at least two of the well-known online auction/sales sites. You know, the ones that receive books to sell or auction, occasionally buy some of said books site seen, press and resub them, and sell them for a considerable profit at a higher grade. Let's face it, these sites are making as much, if not more, money from this aspect of their biz than the buyer and seller commissions they take in.

 

In this regard, the playing field has never been less "level" than today, and that's the major problem I have with pressing.

 

Who are these online auction/sales sites buying their books from? What if those guys knew about pressing before the books got to the auctions, and they were already pressed for the benefit of the first owner?

 

It sounds like the bitterness is towards the "other" person getting to the profits, which I totally understand. And since that "other" person will not stop pressing, it's up to the original owner to beat him to it. I know this sounds like shameless plugging for what I do. But given the nature of the market, it is inevitable. Heck, send your books to someone else beside me! But whatever you do, have your books screened by a pro before you sell. Just my advice.

[Red Hook]

And I assume you could have made those stress marks disappear if you'd taken this demonstration to the next level...right?

 

Ha ha, Brad, I keep telling you, there is no "next level!" These books were all pressed the same as I would any others. If someone wants to test this, they should anonymously submit a few books to me, and then post the results. I'm really surprised someone hasn't done this already.

 

So you are saying that if I had asked you to remove the stress marks near the spine, you could not have done this? Come on, man....you're an artiste!

 

Here's a direct question....

 

Do you or have you done pressing after disassembling a book?

[lou_fine]

I refer to pressing as conservation on my list of services--so it is listed on my ebay auctions. I don't keep anything hidden from sight.

 

Hi Matt;

 

Nice to see you here on the boards again!

 

I totally disagree with you that pressing should be listed as a conservation activity. The traditional definition of conservation is that it is an activity conducted to remove defects that may cause further damage to a book. Prime examples of conservation would be replacement of rusty staples or tear seals where if this type of defect was left alone, it could result in further damage to the book in the future.

 

I don't see how you can make the argument that pressing out dents and non-colour breaking creases should fall under the traditional definition of conservation. Pressing is really nothing more than an activity conducted soley for the purpose of enhancing the appearance of a book, and this clearly places it under the traditional definition of restoration in the comic collecting world.

 

You state that you consider pressing to be conservation and that it is listed on all of your eBay auctions. Am I to take this to mean that any and all books that were pressed by you and listed for sale on eBay would be listed as "Conserved" in your auction description?

 

I guess that means bidders will no longer have to contact you to ask if a book has been pressed or not, since you clearly state above that conservation is listed on your eBay auctions as you do not hide anything from sight.

 

 

P.S. Or do you really mean something else!

[jbud73]

 

But if disclosure is to ever move foward, and pressing is to become more accepted for what it is I think it needs to be determined wether or not the different types of pressing should be dealt with the same way the various forms of recognized restoration are.

 

Kenny, I have to be honest. Pressing is already accepted, and disclosure is not going to move forward because it's impractical for so many different reasons. I'm not saying this to be arrogant, or because it fits my business model. I have had many discussions with just about everyone in this business concerning the issues at hand--this is what I do for a living, after all. Pressing has been around since before I was born, and will continue regardless of any outcome of any argument, because in the practical world, it works.

 

This is not a practice whose fate is being decided as we speak. It is a practice that is going strong, and growing stronger every passing week. It is not the BSD's vs. the little guys, nor the pressers vs. the non-pressers, nor CGC vs. everyone else.

 

I came to the conclusion long ago that it would be better if pressing was shared with everyone, rather than keeping it to myself. If pressing is not going to go away, isn't it better to level the playing field and give everyone the same opportunity? Personally, I'd rather give a guy the chance to get his own upgrades before releasing his books into the market. Because if he doesn't, someone else will.

 

So make pressing as widely known as possible, so everyone can make their own decision regarding their books. But if you go about it in a negative way, which is what the prevailing attitude is on the boards, you're propagating the very stigma that people blame on pressing. It's like telling your best friend you hate his girlfriend, and then the guy ends up marrying her. Now you've got a choice; either make nice with the girlfriend, or go find a new best friend. (pulps, maybe? I hear big little books are coming back)

 

Word is being spread through the message boards, Scoop and GPA newsletters, advertising, and word of mouth. It's not a disease that is running rampant through the hobby. It is simply a tool used when buying and selling comics--just like slabbing, auction houses, the internet, and the price guide. This is not my opinion. This is fact, proven by the number of people pressing, selling and knowingly buying pressed books. It is a business that works, period.

 

You know Matt, you're pretty good, I'll give you that. That's maybe one of the finest passive-agressive normative arguments I've ever seen posted here. To summarize: pressing is ok, everyones doing it, everyone knows about it, but you won't disclose it for a variety of ambiguous reasons you'd rather not get into. You're actually helping the little guy, shepparding him along, telling him not to worry about the history or provenance of a book, its the number currently in front of him, that's the important thing to focus on.

 

To further summarize:

 

You don't consider pressing to be restoration despite the fact that the Society of American Archivists, International Institute of Conservation, Overstreet and your peers Tracy Heft and Susan Cicconi have stated opinions to the contrary.

 

Further, you don't feel bound to disclose the pressing you are performing on comics as a professional restoration expert, even those books you offer for sale at public auction. You feel justified in taking this stance because you feel that other individuals are pressing without disclose and this therefore alleviates you from imposing any ethics or standards in this area even though you are an overstreet advisor and top restoration professional.

 

Yet none of these positions or rationalization/justifications are enacted due to your business model.

 

Thanks for being honest Matt How did you like my Passive-Aggressive response.

[lou_fine]

 

I came to the conclusion long ago that it would be better if pressing was shared with everyone, rather than keeping it to myself. If pressing is not going to go away, isn't it better to level the playing field and give everyone the same opportunity? Personally, I'd rather give a guy the chance to get his own upgrades before releasing his books into the market. Because if he doesn't, someone else will.

 

This is where I get lost. How can the playing field be level if a success-technique lies in the hands of, what?, four or five people in the whole hobby? (how many pro-pressing services are there?). A technique usually left undisclosed out on the playing field. How?

 

Scenario: two people list CGC 8.5s for sale. Niether one is listed as pressed, but one is. One guy sells his 8.5 (that used to be a 7.5, now pressed to 8.5). Cha-ching. And buys the other guy's 8.5, knowing it will press it to 9.2. Cha-ching again.

 

How in the world is that a level playing field????? Seriously, and with all respect. How is it any different than an athelete who uses steroids, or a car saleman who rolls back odometers, or a grocer who alters expiration dates???

 

First of all, all three of your comparisons are illegal, as far as I know. Pressing is not. Not appropriate analogies.

 

The level playing field does not come from the number of people pressing. It comes from whether those pressers offer their services to everyone else, rather than keep it secret, while they go around buying up books and hoping no one ever figures out what's going on.

 

What if the owner of that unpressed 8.5 had a professional press it to 9.2 before he offered it for sale? That is how the playing field is leveled.

 

Matt;

 

I absolutely love how you was able to put a positive spin on this one.

 

Instead of levelling the playing field, I really see this as ratioanlization of your business model. To me, levelling the playing field would mean to place sellers and buyers on an equal footing since these are the two parties in any comic book transaction.

 

Arming only one side (i.e. the sellers) with a weapon such as undetectable pressing and not disclosing it to the other side (i.e. the buyers) serves only to distort the playing field instead of levelling it.

 

To try to legitimize your pressing services to all sellers is really nothing more than an attempt to increase the size of a new business product (i.e. pressing) that was once (and probably still is) percieved by most collectors to be on the shady side since it is almost always followed by non-disclosure.

[lou_fine]

Matt;

 

Hopefully, you'll be back to answer some of our questions here again.

 

This reminds of of a question which you was asked quite a few times on the previous thread and which you have still not supplied an answer to:

 

You stated that it is not a good idea to press a book more than once. Exactly why is it not a good idea to press a book multiple times if as you claimed, the pressing process does not do any damage to the book itself?

 

If there is possible damage done to a book with more than one pressing, then why would there not be similar type damage done to a book with just a single pressing, albeit to a lesser degree?

 

Hopefully, you can answer this question before you disappeared like last time on the previous thread.

 

Thanks!

[lou_fine]

I have to be honest. Pressing is already accepted, and disclosure is not going to move forward because it's impractical for so many different reasons. I'm not saying this to be arrogant, or because it fits my business model. I have had many discussions with just about everyone in this business concerning the issues at hand--this is what I do for a living, after all. Pressing has been around since before I was born, and will continue regardless of any outcome of any argument, because in the practical world, it works.

 

Matt;

 

I would have to disagree with you once again on a couple of your points here.

 

I strongly disagree that pressing is already accepted. I would agree with this statement if you said that pressing was already widely accepted by the dealers. I believe that a large portion of the collector base is not even aware of this issue at this point in time, let alone accept it.

 

Just because we talk about it a lot on these boards here, or if your customer base uses this service, it certainly does not mean that knowledge of this practice is well-known in the overall collectors' market on the whole. In addition, if pressing is widely accepted, as you state, then why is there still all this controversy about this issue on not only the boards here, but also on Scoop, GPS, etc.?

 

You also state that pressing has been around since before you was born. I acknowledge that traditional pressing has been around forever, since this type of pressing was commonly done as the final step in the restoration process after other more invasive activities had already been performed on a book. Exclusive pressing which is the current fad and which everybody is really talking about has not been commonly practiced since before you was born. Don't try to rationalize your position by mixing the two.......they are completely different.

 

Exclusive pressing has primarily entered the picture only when CGC came into the marketplace. Generally, exclusive pressing was just not a worthwile process to be conducted with the old grading standards in place prior to CGC. It is only with CGC and their current deep deep hits on non-colour breaking creases (along with the silly chase for highest graded copy) that has made exclusive pressing into such a profitable venture that it currently is.