Punisher #1 CGC 9.8.....WTF??!?!?!?!?!

[COI]

In rethinking it, I think the 9.8 version of Champions #1 will be worth slighty more than the 9.8 Punisher #1, as there will be much fewer 9.8 collectors, there will be alot of 'extra' 9.8 punishers floating around. But again, it's a pointless discussion. So how did it come up again?

 

Read the entire thread. If you have, go back a few pages and you'll see where the Champions comparison came from.

 

To those who pay $ for 9.8 books, I have to ask, how can you NOT consider it an investment? Are you totally OK with the possibility that you will not be able to resell for more than 10% of what you are paying? Really? Because otherwise, it is an investment.

 

First of all, making a financial investment is done so with the intention of making capital gains from whatever you're investing in. If you're buying something because you want it, and are sincerely not expecting to sell for a profit, you're a spender not an investor. As the consumer debt levels indicate, people spend money on all sorts of craap for all sorts of reasons, and nostalgic hobbies are certainly one of those reasons. Anyone "spending" on a book like this is hopefully not spending beyond their means, and anyone "investing" on a book like this can expect to take a beating. But to say that ALL 9.8's are going to prove to be a bad investment, or that anyone buying books above a certain grade range or price is "investing" is both presumptuous and extreme.

[FlyingDonut]

I think I've already taken the bet from scheradon. On July 10, 2011, Punisher 1 CGC 9.8 will sell for more than Champions 1 CGC 9.8.

 

1. There's significantly more demand for Punisher 1.

2. There's little demand for Champions 1.

3. Punisher 1 was the beginning of a on-going series featuring an exceptionally popular Marvel character who will, by 2011, probably have had two major movies about him plus innumerable series and books. Champions 1 was the beginning of a short-lived (17 issues) series featuring Tier 3 characters (with the possible exception of the Ghost Rider) with no follow-on.

4. The CGC "census" on these books is meaningless at best. So what if there's only 2 Champions 1 9.8s and 30 Punisher 1 9.8s? Guaranteed the number of people wanting a copy of either of those books are different. There's probably ten times more people who are willing to pay for a Punisher 1 9.8 than a Champions 1, and this will only increase because of the only ironclad rule of comic collecting:

 

5 The "Rule of 25" never goes away. In 2011, Punisher 1 will be a 24-year-old book, and everybody who was 11 in 1987 and wanted a copy will be able to afford one. Punisher 1 was a HUGE selling book in 1986. In 2011, Champions 1 will be an almost forgotten 36-year old book. Everybody who wanted a copy would have already gotten one.

[COI]

I think I've already taken the bet from scheradon. On July 10, 2011, Punisher 1 CGC 9.8 will sell for more than Champions 1 CGC 9.8.

 

1. There's significantly more demand for Punisher 1.

2. There's little demand for Champions 1.

3. Punisher 1 was the beginning of a on-going series featuring an exceptionally popular Marvel character who will, by 2011, probably have had two major movies about him plus innumerable series and books. Champions 1 was the beginning of a short-lived (17 issues) series featuring Tier 3 characters (with the possible exception of the Ghost Rider) with no follow-on.

4. The CGC "census" on these books is meaningless at best. So what if there's only 2 Champions 1 9.8s and 30 Punisher 1 9.8s? Guaranteed the number of people wanting a copy of either of those books are different. There's probably ten times more people who are willing to pay for a Punisher 1 9.8 than a Champions 1, and this will only increase because of the only ironclad rule of comic collecting:

 

5 The "Rule of 25" never goes away. In 2011, Punisher 1 will be a 24-year-old book, and everybody who was 11 in 1987 and wanted a copy will be able to afford one. Punisher 1 was a HUGE selling book in 1986. In 2011, Champions 1 will be an almost forgotten 36-year old book. Everybody who wanted a copy would have already gotten one.

 

Scheradon's going to accuse you of going off topic.

 

[the blob]

Hey, the Punisher 9.8 #1 is a fine book to buy for enjoyment and heck, maybe even investment, if you're paying $50 for it. What does that guide for anyway in 9.2?

[joe_collector]

They were both good investments for those that bought them at cover price & are now slabbing those copies & getting 9.8s

 

Buying today for 'investment' at the slabbed 9.8 level is financial suicide.

 

Yep, the "investment" part of the equation was the original owner selling it to the drooling speculators.

 

People tend to forget that.

[Scheradon]

I think I've already taken the bet from scheradon. On July 10, 2011, Punisher 1 CGC 9.8 will sell for more than Champions 1 CGC 9.8.

 

1. There's significantly more demand for Punisher 1.

2. There's little demand for Champions 1.

3. Punisher 1 was the beginning of a on-going series featuring an exceptionally popular Marvel character who will, by 2011, probably have had two major movies about him plus innumerable series and books. Champions 1 was the beginning of a short-lived (17 issues) series featuring Tier 3 characters (with the possible exception of the Ghost Rider) with no follow-on.

4. The CGC "census" on these books is meaningless at best. So what if there's only 2 Champions 1 9.8s and 30 Punisher 1 9.8s? Guaranteed the number of people wanting a copy of either of those books are different. There's probably ten times more people who are willing to pay for a Punisher 1 9.8 than a Champions 1, and this will only increase because of the only ironclad rule of comic collecting:

 

5 The "Rule of 25" never goes away. In 2011, Punisher 1 will be a 24-year-old book, and everybody who was 11 in 1987 and wanted a copy will be able to afford one. Punisher 1 was a HUGE selling book in 1986. In 2011, Champions 1 will be an almost forgotten 36-year old book. Everybody who wanted a copy would have already gotten one.

 

Scheradon's going to accuse you of going off topic.

 

 

Quite the contrary. FD's first sentence is exactly what I was waiting for. Then he neatly explained why he thinks that.

 

Perfect response FD

 

I can't wait to collect whatever it is we're betting in 5 years

[Scheradon]

You seem intent on turning this into a who's more important to you type debate.

 

 

You cannot compare the price potential of 2 books without taking into consideration which book is more significant, because they're not mutually exclusive. Significance = demand and demand = $$$$. And I'm saying that the demand for a Punisher #1 is greater, and despite the greater supply of copies it's more likely to hold ground. And again, for the record, I think these both suck as "investments", but the champions sucks harder.

 

I agree.

 

Ok you two.

 

How about Punisher LS #1 and Mad #10 in 9.8. Which will be worth more in 5 years? Here's your answer...Mad #10. Is the character more significant...No. Is the Mad worth more...Yes.

 

How about Punisher War Journal #1 in 9.8? It's got that significant Punisher guy in there?

 

Look, ASM #129 is significant and an important sought after book. These Punisher LS books aren't all that important really. Like I've said, look at the Wolverine (abd he's pretty popular I believe) LS book and you can see how the price never approaches the $400-$500 range. Even with high demand for him, as more and more 9.8s have surfaced, it keeps the price down. You will begin to see this with the Punisher as well as more 9.8s surface.

 

I think you underestimate the demand for a book like Champions #1 in 9.8. I know I didn't even bid on the one that sold for $577 awhile back and I would be willing to pay $500 for the book. There were 3 other lower bids that topped $500 in that auction as well. Now, if it's taken this many years to get 2 9.8s, then how many more do you think will be there in 5 years? You can bet there will be enough demand for them at $500 plus to sustain this price.

 

Unless a wharehouse find comes along or a dealer submits his uncirculated hoard of 9.8s, then the price will hold for this book. As for Punisher LS #1, it's most recent sale has already made the $504 look like a bad buy.

[joe_collector]

I think you underestimate the demand for a book like Champions #1 in 9.8.

 

I think you are on crack.

 

Seriously dood, go back to investing in sportscards and action figures.

 

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And it's spelled "warehouse", not wherehouse, wharehouse, wearhouse, whorehouse, or any other variant.

[Sal]

whorehouse...

 

[Scheradon]

I think you underestimate the demand for a book like Champions #1 in 9.8.

 

I think you are on crack.

 

Seriously dood, go back to investing in sportscards and action figures.

 

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And it's spelled "warehouse", not wherehouse, wharehouse, wearhouse, whorehouse, or any other variant.

 

Do you ever actually deliver an opinion or do you relish just typing in a bunch of insults? I know facts may be too much trouble for you to comprehend or come up with as you either ignore them when presented or fail to have any when you respond.

 

It's a FACT, that people are willing to pay $500 plus for a Champions #1 in cgc 9.8. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. It's not within your control. It doesn't matter whether you think they are stupid or not or whatever. It is just the way it is at this time.

 

Now for the simple question you are obviously unable to answer...

 

Which book do you think will be worth more in 9.8 in 5 years?

 

It's really pretty simple and doesn't require anyone to "smoke crack", discuss investing or petty spelling corrections.

[whomerjay]

 

Ok you two.

 

How about Punisher LS #1 and Mad #10 in 9.8. Which will be worth more in 5 years? Here's your answer...Mad #10. Is the character more significant...No. Is the Mad worth more...Yes.

 

I would certainly say the Magazine Mad and the character Alfred E. Neuman are much more significant than the Punisher comic and character. UNniversal recognition of Mad magazine is probably more than 10 times that of the Punisher, and if not for the [embarrassing lack of self control] Punisher movies that most know of but never saw if would be more like > 100 times.

 

 

This whole argument really rests on two things:

 

1) the best data to support the supply and demand for the two books projected in 5 years; and

 

2) how the supply/demand affects the price. It tends to be pure speculation if the ratios are close but the absolute numbers of books differ, which might be the case here. Punisher is very popular and I think the demand is underestimated by most, but then that also means

he has plenty of room to drop. I agree that I really don't see Champions as very popular nor will it be, but if the supply is small enough....

 

If's funny but I think GA is a great buy because the supply is low and although the demand is relatively low compared to SA and newer, I think demand is still close to the floor right now and will increase greatly in the next 10-20 years. So I somewhat embrace your philosophy, just differ in the perception of the book.

[Scheradon]

 

Ok you two.

 

How about Punisher LS #1 and Mad #10 in 9.8. Which will be worth more in 5 years? Here's your answer...Mad #10. Is the character more significant...No. Is the Mad worth more...Yes.

 

I would certainly say the Magazine Mad and the character Alfred E. Neuman are much more significant than the Punisher comic and character. UNniversal recognition of Mad magazine is probably more than 10 times that of the Punisher, and if not for the [embarrassing lack of self control] Punisher movies that most know of but never saw if would be more like > 100 times.

 

 

This whole argument really rests on two things:

 

1) the best data to support the supply and demand for the two books projected in 5 years; and

 

2) how the supply/demand affects the price. It tends to be pure speculation if the ratios are close but the absolute numbers of books differ, which might be the case here. Punisher is very popular and I think the demand is underestimated by most, but then that also means

he has plenty of room to drop. I agree that I really don't see Champions as very popular nor will it be, but if the supply is small enough....

 

If's funny but I think GA is a great buy because the supply is low and although the demand is relatively low compared to SA and newer, I think demand is still close to the floor right now and will increase greatly in the next 10-20 years. So I somewhat embrace your philosophy, just differ in the perception of the book.

 

Interesting points.

 

BTW Alfred E. Neuman didn't show up until #30 and that issue is considered a valuable key.

[joe_collector]

It's a FACT, that people are willing to pay $500 plus for a Champions #1 in cgc 9.8.

 

It's also a FACT that people were paying hundreds and even thousands of dollars for graded sportscards you can now buy for $10 or less.

 

Do the math.

[SuperBird]

want to buy a $2,000 Beanie Baby? It's super-rare! The tag is graded 9.8!

[october]

Ok you two.

 

How about Punisher LS #1 and Mad #10 in 9.8. Which will be worth more in 5 years? Here's your answer...Mad #10. Is the character more significant...No. Is the Mad worth more...Yes.

 

How about Punisher War Journal #1 in 9.8? It's got that significant Punisher guy in there?

 

Look, ASM #129 is significant and an important sought after book. These Punisher LS books aren't all that important really. Like I've said, look at the Wolverine (abd he's pretty popular I believe) LS book and you can see how the price never approaches the $400-$500 range. Even with high demand for him, as more and more 9.8s have surfaced, it keeps the price down. You will begin to see this with the Punisher as well as more 9.8s surface.

 

I think you underestimate the demand for a book like Champions #1 in 9.8. I know I didn't even bid on the one that sold for $577 awhile back and I would be willing to pay $500 for the book. There were 3 other lower bids that topped $500 in that auction as well. Now, if it's taken this many years to get 2 9.8s, then how many more do you think will be there in 5 years? You can bet there will be enough demand for them at $500 plus to sustain this price.

 

Unless a wharehouse find comes along or a dealer submits his uncirculated hoard of 9.8s, then the price will hold for this book. As for Punisher LS #1, it's most recent sale has already made the $504 look like a bad buy.

 

There WAS a find of Champions 1. I already said that Zillaf4 had dozens of perfect uncirculated copies, probably an entire case, that they sold on eBay over the past year.

 

The census is totally meaningless for that book. Most collectors probably have no idea that book is worth anything in any grade, if they know what it is at all. Therefore they aren't going to bother subbing copies. Honestly, it's a nothing issue from a nothing title that went nowhere. It is an absolute zero on the importance scale. Why anyone would pay $500 for it in any grade is totally beyond me. You can pick up NM copies for what? $10?

[COI]

I'm almost done with this. I enjoy these kinds of debates, but not when I have to keep repeating myself.

 

How about Punisher War Journal #1 in 9.8? It's got that significant Punisher guy in there?

 

Do I really have to address this?

 

Look, ASM #129 is significant and an important sought after book. These Punisher LS books aren't all that important really. Like I've said, look at the Wolverine (abd he's pretty popular I believe) LS book and you can see how the price never approaches the $400-$500 range. Even with high demand for him, as more and more 9.8s have surfaced, it keeps the price down. You will begin to see this with the Punisher as well as more 9.8s surface.

 

Why are you turning this into a discussion of which Punisher related book is more significant? Of course ASM #129 is THE Punisher book, but we're comparing Punisher LS #1 to Champions #1. Nobody said anything about ASM #129, Punisher War Journal #1, or Wolverine #1.

 

And I'll say it again; Punisher #1 was the start of the 80's and 90's Punisher craze, as opposed to Wolverine who was ALREADY popular by the time the first issue of his limited series hit. Logically, that means that Wolverine #1 was much more heavily hoarded, which explains the massive supply. The census, which you swear by, backs up this theory. 30 9.8 Punisher #1's compared to 450 9.8 Wolverine #1's. I'm not saying there won't be more Punisher 1's appearing in 9.8, but the total will never get anywhere near Wolverine #1, so you can't make any sort of reasonable comparison between the 2 books.

 

I think you underestimate the demand for a book like Champions #1 in 9.8. I know I didn't even bid on the one that sold for $577 awhile back and I would be willing to pay $500 for the book. There were 3 other lower bids that topped $500 in that auction as well. Now, if it's taken this many years to get 2 9.8s, then how many more do you think will be there in 5 years? You can bet there will be enough demand for them at $500 plus to sustain this price.

 

I already used the example of DD #168 which had 0 9.8 copies until around 2004 and now there are 9. So over the course of 5 years not a single solitary 9.8 was produced, then 9 showed up in less than 2 years. The point is, you don't know what's coming down the pike, and using linear extrapolation to predict future census numbers is a fool's errand. You're assuming that grading standards will always be the same, which they probably won't be, and you're also assuming that the market will always accept CGC's arbitrary 9.6/9.8 designations, which is also something you can't know for certain.

 

Unless a wharehouse find comes along or a dealer submits his uncirculated hoard of 9.8s, then the price will hold for this book. As for Punisher LS #1, it's most recent sale has already made the $504 look like a bad buy.

 

I don't think anyone here is saying that $500 for a Punisher #1 isn't a bad buy, but you keep insisting that this is a discussion about which book has legs 5-10 years from now, so I don't see why you even made this point.

[Mutantcollector]

I don't know why people seem to get upset when theu see a book go for a very high price, and always assume that the buyer doesn't ever expect the book to come done in price. Right now Punisher #1 is hard to find in 9.8. If you want to get the book now you are going to have to pay a high price for it because there is more demand then supply right now .This doesn't mean that the people buying this comic believe that it will always be hard to find. Some people are willing to wait to find a book at a fair price, others are willing to pay whatever it takes to have it now . What I like about sales like these, is that they always seem to bring more high grade copies out of the woodwork.

[nazmuth]

Interesting points.

 

BTW Alfred E. Neuman didn't show up until #30 and that issue is considered a valuable key.

 

Well, actually, he was on the cover of #21...

[Scheradon]

It's a FACT, that people are willing to pay $500 plus for a Champions #1 in cgc 9.8.

 

It's also a FACT that people were paying hundreds and even thousands of dollars for graded sportscards you can now buy for $10 or less.

 

Do the math.

 

I wouldn't know, I've never bought a graded sportscard.

[Scheradon]

Ok you two.

 

How about Punisher LS #1 and Mad #10 in 9.8. Which will be worth more in 5 years? Here's your answer...Mad #10. Is the character more significant...No. Is the Mad worth more...Yes.

 

How about Punisher War Journal #1 in 9.8? It's got that significant Punisher guy in there?

 

Look, ASM #129 is significant and an important sought after book. These Punisher LS books aren't all that important really. Like I've said, look at the Wolverine (abd he's pretty popular I believe) LS book and you can see how the price never approaches the $400-$500 range. Even with high demand for him, as more and more 9.8s have surfaced, it keeps the price down. You will begin to see this with the Punisher as well as more 9.8s surface.

 

I think you underestimate the demand for a book like Champions #1 in 9.8. I know I didn't even bid on the one that sold for $577 awhile back and I would be willing to pay $500 for the book. There were 3 other lower bids that topped $500 in that auction as well. Now, if it's taken this many years to get 2 9.8s, then how many more do you think will be there in 5 years? You can bet there will be enough demand for them at $500 plus to sustain this price.

 

Unless a wharehouse find comes along or a dealer submits his uncirculated hoard of 9.8s, then the price will hold for this book. As for Punisher LS #1, it's most recent sale has already made the $504 look like a bad buy.

 

There WAS a find of Champions 1. I already said that Zillaf4 had dozens of perfect uncirculated copies, probably an entire case, that they sold on eBay over the past year.

 

The census is totally meaningless for that book. Most collectors probably have no idea that book is worth anything in any grade, if they know what it is at all. Therefore they aren't going to bother subbing copies. Honestly, it's a nothing issue from a nothing title that went nowhere. It is an absolute zero on the importance scale. Why anyone would pay $500 for it in any grade is totally beyond me. You can pick up NM copies for what? $10?

 

NM can mean a lot of things...9.0, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6. It's the 9.8s that aren't easy to come by.

 

If you think that you can pick one up for $10, then here's your opportunity to make quite a chunk of change. Why not jump on it? And irregardless of how you view the title or book, it still draws in more money than the Punisher LS #1, so someone must like it.