AFI Heroes and Villains list

[Tomega]

I can agree with the top twenty of so for the most parts but Thelma and Louise , erin Brockovich, Karen Silkwood, Frank Booth, Alonzo Harris ? Give me a break, more liberal Hollywood crapola catering to what is politically correct. Those films were decent but I could pick so many better bad and good guys? How about Michael Myers? No one made a plain old white mask seem scarier ( it was Bill Shatners face and he should have been on the list - he's freaking Captain Kirk.) The list could go on - James Bond, William Wallace, Colonel Tavington( bad as they get in they Patriot) , Col. Walter E. Kurtz ( Brando in Apocalypse Now), Colonel Nicholson ( The Bridge on the River Kwai, I guess they did not want Guinness on the list twice), Tommy DeVito from GoodFellas, The Machurian Candidate's Frank Sinatra.... Capt./Maj. Bennett Marco . They could have done a lot better.

 

Tomega

[PovertyRow]

Anyone else find it bizarre that both Han Solo and Obi-Wan made it, but not Luke? I was expecting to see his name somewhere in the Top 10 or 15...

 

Well, it IS AFI. They tend to be pedestrian overall with a few "sleepers" to make them look good. But overall, they are about on par with the Academy Awards.

 

::post-edit - and yeah - Skywalker should have been up on the list!

[blowout]

I think he did a good job,but who would you liked to see play Luke......

 

Someone with a screen presence, charisma, and acting ability. All qualities sadly laking in MH.

Harrison Ford leaves him for dead in the original three SW films and its no surprise that he went on to become a superstar while Mark Hamill disappeared into obscurity.

[Darthdiesel]

... while Mark Hamill disappeared into obscurity.

 

I wouldn't consider a Simpson episode dedicated to him as obscurity, thank you very much...

 

what about his key role in Jay and Silent Bob Strike back?

 

 

[Mushroom]

I think he did a good job,but who would you liked to see play Luke......

 

Someone with a screen presence, charisma, and acting ability. All qualities sadly laking in MH.

Harrison Ford leaves him for dead in the original three SW films and its no surprise that he went on to become a superstar while Mark Hamill disappeared into obscurity.

 

I think the guy int the Spidey movie is the Mark Hamill of the noughties. If I had my choice starwars would have been Patrick Swayze and Spiderman John Cusak.

 

 

 

 

[blowout]

I wouldn't consider a Simpson episode dedicated to him as obscurity, thank you very much...

what about his key role in Jay and Silent Bob Strike back?

 

I couldn't have illustrated my point any better myself.

[Darthdiesel]

I wouldn't consider a Simpson episode dedicated to him as obscurity, thank you very much...

what about his key role in Jay and Silent Bob Strike back?

 

I couldn't have illustrated my point any better myself.

 

Hamill Hater! Now Dorothy Hamill...there's a star with lasting power...

[doyle033]

Hamill Hater! Now Dorothy Hamill...there's a star with lasting power...

...And lets not forget George Hamill...ton! man to have a tan like that!

[Darthdiesel]

Hamill Hater! Now Dorothy Hamill...there's a star with lasting power...

...And lets not forget George Hamill...ton! man to have a tan like that!

 

 

Ah yes... George most memorable hero role as "Greggy, The Gay Blade"

[greggy]

Hamill Hater! Now Dorothy Hamill...there's a star with lasting power...

...And lets not forget George Hamill...ton! man to have a tan like that!

 

 

Ah yes... George most memorable hero role as "Greggy, The Gay Blade"

 

[CGCMINT]

Billy Jack should have been in the top 50 heroes.

 

John

 

[doyle033]

As well as Shaft!!

shut your mouth.

talking bout shaft

[seank]

Alex from "A Clockwork Orange" is a villain? I don't think so.

 

Rape, murder, and pillaging don't count in determining who's a villain and who's not?!?!? Or did his mistreatment by the state nullify his culpability for past actions?

 

I'd argue that Alex isn't a hero in the sense of Luke Skywalker (who should have been on the list) or Atticus Finch, but Alex is in no way a villain. He is better classified as an anti-hero.

 

Wolverine and the Punisher murder all the time but we consider them heros.

[joe_collector]

I'd argue that Alex isn't a hero in the sense of Luke Skywalker (who should have been on the list) or Atticus Finch, but Alex is in no way a villain. He is better classified as an anti-hero.

 

Yep, the classification depends on the context of the movie, and in the case of Clockwork Orange, Alex is indeed a very flawed, anti-hero.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Yup, anti-hero and in some ways a victim of the very society of which he is a malignant part. But it's OK, he's back to "normal" at the end .

[fantastic_four]

I'd argue that Alex isn't a hero in the sense of Luke Skywalker (who should have been on the list) or Atticus Finch, but Alex is in no way a villain. He is better classified as an anti-hero.

 

Wolverine and the Punisher murder all the time but we consider them heros.

 

I disagree with Alex being an anti-hero. My understanding of an anti-hero is that he has to display some sort of heroic quality that becomes corrupted over time...I've heard "failed hero" as a synonym for anti-hero. Magneto is an anti-hero; he thinks he's doing good and his original intentions are quite heroic, but his ego corrupted his vision into a quest for world domination.

 

In what way was Alex at all heroic before that mess the state put him through? Alex was a villain when the film started, and the treatment instilled a few morals in him. Those morals were the same kind most everyday people have (save a few amongst us)...they weren't really heroic. Slightly heroic, but no more so than most of us display every day by failing to screw people over, by showing decorum, or by being polite. And as Arnold points out, he quickly shed those morals once the negative reinforcement conditioning wore off.

 

I'll grant that Alex was an extremely minor anti-hero after the conditioning and before it wore off since you could identify a bit with the violation of his basic human rights...but since that small amount of anti-heroism was created and not indemic since he started and finished as a villain, that's how he should be classified, as a villain.

 

To say that he was "in no way a villain" is simply inaccurate...anti-heroes don't rape and demean people like Alex did. He was a pure animal before that conditioning.

[underthebigw]

You can blame Mark Hamill for that...

 

Hey Now, that's a cheap shot. In retrospect his acting seems pretty lame and make the movie a bit cheesy. But at the time, and to me this still holds true, it gave the story a lot of its charm and appeal. He was the perfect actor for the part and I don't remember anyone commenting on his acting at the time (and I read everything I could about the flick even though I was 13). I think we all tend to be somewhat embarassed that such a simple movie with such mediocre acting and now-seemingly primitive special effects totally changed the movie industry, rescued Star Trek from the scrap heap of re-runs, spawned a healthier sci-fi industry, and totally changed everyone's view of licensed toys. It's easy to focus a lot of the movie's shortcomings on Hamill.

[joe_collector]

Hey Now, that's a cheap shot. In retrospect his acting seems pretty lame and make the movie a bit cheesy. But at the time, and to me this still holds true, it gave the story a lot of its charm and appeal.

 

I agree totally. Luke was the pivotal character, and was supposedly a fresh-faced, naive famboy and Hammill embodied that perfectly.

 

And we all forget that Mark Hamill might have been a big star had he not been in that horrific car accident right after SW, and had his face totally rearranged and restored. The guy was good looking in SW, then kinda got that freaky "post-surgery look" in ESB.

 

Here's a quote:

 

"I don't remember any of it. I don't even remember getting into the car. I woke up in County General. There's a guy moaning next to me and some intern says, 'We're going to take him next because he's in worse shape than you are and you're in pretty bad shape,' and he holds a mirror up to my face and... It looks like a raspberry pie. My nose was off. I didn't have a nose, it was just gone; later, they took cartilage from my ear to build it back up."

[PovertyRow]

I disagree with Alex being an anti-hero. My understanding of an anti-hero is that he has to display some sort of heroic quality that becomes corrupted over time...I've heard "failed hero" as a synonym for anti-hero. Magneto is an anti-hero; he thinks he's doing good and his original intentions are quite heroic, but his ego corrupted his vision into a quest for world domination.

 

I gave a lot of thought to Alex and am still thinking. There are anti-hero factors that have to be intuited. His upbringing...his parents mainly and their obvious ignoring of any development in Alex's life. What probably makes him seem more anti-hero, though, is his narration...HE is narrating, and in doing so, the viewer can begin to relate to his reasons and his ideas. That is fairly uncommon for a filmic villain or a bookic villain.

 

We also have Alex's obvious appreciation f music...the scene in the milk bar when the woman was singing and Dim (as I recall) made some remarks to which Alex promptly put a stop to also is designed to elcit at least a small measure of audience sympathy.

 

But then you look at the scenes where the health club woman was attacked, or the writer and his wife ("Home" was it?) and there is an Alex totally unrelatable to most and totally evil.

 

So still thinking but I tend to shy away from anti-hero.

[fantastic_four]

I gave a lot of thought to Alex and am still thinking. There are anti-hero factors that have to be intuited. His upbringing...his parents mainly and their obvious ignoring of any development in Alex's life.

 

That's standard fare for ANY criminal or villain. That's often how they become how they are, because of their upbringing. You could use this argument to say that almost NOBODY is a villain...that the jails are full of innocent victims to their parents' poor child rearing skills...but that doesn't work. You have to make sane human beings responsible for their own actions, or people will start doing whatever they want.

 

 

What probably makes him seem more anti-hero, though, is his narration...HE is narrating, and in doing so, the viewer can begin to relate to his reasons and his ideas. That is fairly uncommon for a filmic villain or a bookic villain.

 

Yes, he's the protagonist...but just because a villain is a protagonist doesn't mean they're not a villain. I agree that it's not a common thing for an author to do, since most people can't identify with a villain...but in the case of "Clockwork Orange," identifying with a villain is exactly what the author was trying to do.

 

At varying times over the course of history, people involved with the penal system come up with these ideas for preventing crime that violate human rights. In the middle east, they chop off the hands of thieves (or at least they used to)...some states in the US chemically castrate sex offenders if I'm not mistaken...and perhaps someone Burgess was familiar with was suggesting the conditioning treatment he wrote about in his book. I have to assume he wanted to make you identify with the villain to prove that even villains have rights.

 

 

We also have Alex's obvious appreciation f music...the scene in the milk bar when the woman was singing and Dim (as I recall) made some remarks to which Alex promptly put a stop to also is designed to elcit at least a small measure of audience sympathy.

 

The appreciation for music isn't a sign of heroism...Hannibal Lecter liked to kill people to music. Hannibal likes every type of art, actually...music, art, literature, and many fields of science. Dupcak has quite an appreciation for baseball stuff and comics; does that forgive the way he rips people off? Liking music just shows that Alex has ears, a brain, and a developed aesthetic taste. I'm sure Jeff Dahmer had quite a well-developed culinary taste, but that doesn't mean he's not a villain!

 

The defense of the woman possibly shows a bit of heroism, but I'd have to see that scene again to figure out why he did it...it could have been for ultimately selfish reasons since he showed later that he could care less about women when he raped and killed the one with the huge statue. That one scene alone solidly qualifies him for the top 50 villains list! Nothing heroic or anti-heroic about that act or the thoughts and emotions in his life that led up to it...he was just lusting for blood.