Wayne-Tec

If FMV-hierarchy were constructed, mostly, by what is popular and relevant today, Action Comics #1 would not sell for nearly as much as Detective Comics #27, let alone more. I have no idea how Pep Comics #22 would keep up with some of the most desirable Batman comics and books like Suspense #3 and Fantastic #3 wouldn't sell for much at all.

Yes, the hierarchy is shifting, but it's not at all purely based on the character's modern day popularity. It helps, but comic book collectors are influenced by a number of other factors.

21 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

You speak more to reality than golden age blasphemy. For example, Deadpool is now - and may be in ten years still - more popular than Sandman (Adv40), Hourman (48), Spectre (MF52), Dr. Fate, and so forth,  further diminishing the relevance of those current heavyweight books.

(which just may work out for me at 92 when I might be able to afford copies!)

82 and still passionate about these books?

8 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Superman being the first will always make Action 1 a tier 1 book by default, and Tec 27 because...well because it's Batman.   As for captain America being less popular than superman in this era ?  I don't know about that.  

And my point about cap 1 being a tier 1 isn't actually tied to popularity or even value.  Cap 1 is one of the first Timely creations that's still actually relevant today.  He is basically their only GA hero holdover, essentially unchanged since his creation (not counting the junk Nick Spencer has been doing lately).  That's very significant to Timely/Marvel collectors, and as the top Timely it deserves a spot in the tier 1, irrespective of the reasons why Action 1 and Tec 27 are there IMO.

-J.

I'm not talking about popularity today, I'm talking about "cumulative popularity." You could make a strong argument for Captain America > Superman today. Look at how the Winter Soldier performed at the box office/critically vs. Man of Steel. I also give the results of this generation a little more weight because more is invested into these characters now than ever before. Being the No. 1 superhero in the world in 2017 might have a greater effect than being the No. 1 superhero in the world in 1971. So if Captain America is, arguably, more popular today, that absolutely counts for something. There's a difference between popularity and recognizability too. Superman is champion of the latter.

But with respect to cumulative popularity, even with Superman slipping, it's nowhere near enough for Captain America to move past him if we're taking inventory of 1938-2017. There's no way to perfectly measure this of course, but I think you get the idea. 

That old post led me to this:

1970 Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (Values in "Mint")

1. $300: Action Comics #1

2. $275: Detective Comics #27

T-3. $250: Superman #1

T-3. $250: Marvel Comics #1

5. $235: Whiz Comics #2 (#1)

6. $175: Batman #1

7. $150: Captain America Comics #1

8. $135: All-Star Comics #3

9. $125: Flash Comics #1

10. $100: More Fun Comics #52

Pretty solid list.

10 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

You actually are making a good argument for Whiz 2:  1st appearance of Captain Marvel, origin of Captain Marvel, 1st appearance of his arch-nemesis Dr. Silvana (is it also the first Fawcett comic?).  And Captain Marvel was a much bigger pop culture sensation from 1940 to the mid-1950s than Captain America.  CM was the most popular superhero of the GA and the fist to be put into a movie serial in 1941.  So the historical import cannot be doubted.  Especially when you factor in how the lawsuits impacted the industry.  If not for the lawsuits putting CM out of business, he might well have had an uninterrupted run to the present.  Aside from the 1941 serial, he was also on radio, the inspiration for a 1950 movie, and, after revival in 1972, was a 1973 tv show.   (In contrast, CA's original run didn't make it to the 1950s, and the Atlas CA revival of 1954 flopped, as he didn't even have the popularity of Subby).     

I touched on the historical significance of Captain Marvel back in 2011, here: LINK

14 hours ago, Readcomix said:

Yes someone among the current pod of whales might well go that much for the beautiful 9.4 Church (thanks for posting it, woowoo) but I wonder if it has long legs? Would the estate of a 7-figure buyer of that book find someone on the other side of that trade at the same relative level 40, 50 years from now? 

Are we talking about a 5-year investment, 10-year...or 40-year, 50-year investment?

It's conceivable, though I'd argue against it, that Batman will be unpopular or nearly irrelevant 50 years from now. It's conceivable that Golden Age superhero comics of the highest order will not be relevant or desirable in 50 years. A lot changes over that kind of span.

7 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

It already is. "Tier 1" can't be and isn't just composed of DC.

-J.

For a book to be in the same tier (just my opinion) it has to be nearly equal overall in caliber and if it's not, it needs to possess something that other books in the tier do not have. Cap #1 is my top Marvel Comic, of all-time, but just because Action #1 and Tec #27 are Tier-1 books doesn't mean I can add the top Marvel book for the sake of keeping things close. I'll give you that it's the better illustrated cover, that it has the combo of 1st appearance of the hero, origin of the hero and 1st appearance of the hero's arch nemesis (imagine of Joker's 1st appearance was in Tec #27 too), but being a late 1940 book, being a more common book and because Cap lags behind Superman and Batman historically, it's Tier-2.

1 hour ago, ender said:

This is sort of related and wanted some folks who have been viewing this a lot longer than me to really weigh in.  When a book hits that 1 million mark does that impact the price in all grades or is it sort of limited to the 8.5 and higher grade range?  More many higher end books the price gap seems really high to the that starter level book (of course measuring against $0 anything looks big) but then the dollars per point seem to shrink down a little between 5.0 and 8.0 and then get bigger and bigger again the higher you go?  For instance a book might only be 1000 difference between a 5.0 and a 6.0 but then would be a 2000 difference between 8.5 and 9.0?  Am I imagining this?  Thanks for any insight.

Shortly after the first $1M sale of an Action Comics #1 (8.0), a 3.0 copy sold for $300,000. Safe to say there was definitely a correlation in that instance.

29 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

while the cover to AS8 is nothing to write home about, the cover to AA 16 stinks compared to just about every GA key..classic? not in my book..lets call it what it is...lame..... sure, its rare, but most all GA keys are rare (just different degrees)

and yes, it's had its day in the sun...but so have other former "big" books that just aren't "big" any more...

sorry to bubble burst, but you can't convince me that AA 16 can even carry WW jockstrap these days

 

I personally love the cover of All-American Comics #16.

7 minutes ago, woowoo said:

Right now no way. Wonder woman way way way ahead

FMV-wise, I suspect you'd be correct. In terms of historical significance also. But I don't think the factors I listed above amount to nothing. It's enough to put them on the same tier, IMO, for now.

10 hours ago, woowoo said:

All-Star Comics #8

All-American Comics #16

The 8 ahead of 16

If we're strictly talking impact of the main character, there is absolutely no comparison. Wonder Woman 8 days a week over Alan Scott's Green Lantern.

At the same time, I don't dismiss Alan Scott as "not the Green Lantern people care about." At face-value, that is true, but I think we can delve deeper. Origin-wise, he's different. Costume-wise, he's different. But the general look (short mask, lantern logo on chest) and power ring do still remain. Wonder Woman in All-Star #8 looks a lot more like Wonder Woman today than Green Lantern from All-American #16 looks like the Hal Jordan version of the character today, but it's not an entire world of difference and there is a lot about Wonder Woman that has changed too.

It's important to remember, these character's evolve. Siegel and Shuster's Superman, at times, made absolutely no effort to conceal his secret identity. He dressed up like a miner and crashed a party, he crashed head-on into a moving car, out of costume, so he could intentionally get himself imprisoned. Bob Kane's Batman took lives, joked about doing so and even sported a gun holster on the cover of the very issue that first introduced his origin with his family being murdered. Superman and Batman today, in many ways, are very different than their original incarnations. So too is Green Lantern, to a greater degree of course.

All-American Comics #16 has a lot going for it. That's not to overlook the obvious, that All-Star Comics #8 does too. But in terms of the following:

• Rarity
• Status as a "big time" book over the years
• Classic cover

...I think All-American Comics #16 tops All-Star Comics #8. On my list, they're ranked on the same tier (Tier-4), and I think a strong argument could be made for either.

Seeing Amazing Fantasy #15 and Showcase #4 ranked amongst GA books is dicey.

As I stated in my original post, if we were just talking about historical significance, our lists would look drastically different. We could also debate the different types of historical significance. Fantastic Four #1 could top Amazing Fantasy #15 because it was the birth of the modern day Marvel Universe, but considering Spider-Man's popularity and impact, the latter ranks higher for me. Showcase #4 could top all SA books due to it kickstarting the next wave of superhero genre, but I'd still rank Amazing Fantasy #15 ahead of it.

From a standpoint of historical significance, Amazing Fantasy #15 would not only be Tier-1, it would also rank ahead of Detective Comics #27. The two characters may be neck-and-neck as it pertains to popularity, but Spider-Man was a more innovative creation IMO and there's far greater depth to the story "With great power comes great responsibility" (AF #15) than "A fitting end for his kind" (Tec #27).
 

I believe one of the strongest tests of a book's depth is how it performs in lower grades, 1.0's, coverless, even single pages. 

Obviously if cost were not a factor, we'd all prefer higher graded copies. It's natural for a book to be more desirable in better condition.

But if a book becomes 10/10 desirable only "if":

• It's in high grade (Amazing Fantasy #15).
• The front cover displays well (Suspense #3).

...what does that tell us about a book's depth?

Put it this way: How many multiples of Action #1 (1.0) FMV does it take to reach FMV of the highest graded example (9.0)?

30x, 40x, 50x?

How many multiples of Amazing Fantasy #15 (1.0) FMV does it take to reach the FMV of the highest graded example (9.6)?

200x, 300x?

In respects to cover-centric books with forgettable interiors: How many multiples of Action #1 (coverless) does it take to reach FMV for the highest graded example? How many multiples of Suspense #3 (coverless) to reach the same?

On 7/9/2017 at 1:55 PM, ARCHIVED COLLECTIBLES said:

No. I discard those. I will be getting together tonight with some collecting folks. Will ask around.

Today I removed the old silica gel packs from my safe despot box. Despite not being replaced for a year or longer, they were 100% dry, leaving no moisture residue of any kind. The inside of the box was cool and dry.

I opened the packets up before I threw them away and the majority of the beads were yellow/brown, some clear and all appeared hard and dried out.

21 minutes ago, gino2paulus2 said:

Good question and to answer a bit Captain America wasn't the first sporting the United States colors we know that. I believe though even Uncle Sam from Quality had several issues in 1940 even look at the cover to the classic #7 which was Jan 1941 where it states on the cover he was smashing a, "Mad Dictator" As far as, "pre WWII" heroes fighting nazism and we are assuming the US entered WWII in 12/41 we can say another hero would be Ace's The Flag just as an example. To paint a clear picture look at the cover to Our Flag #2 which came out in Oct 1941 if that isn't fighting Nazis i'm not sure what is. There is even a swastica on the cover. Yes many of the characters at the time seemed to be, "plastered with American Flag symbolism to sell books" it just so happens Captain America was one of those characters as well 

All that being said I'm not knocking the book either I would LOVE to have one I just don't think it was a completely original idea. It was like many others of the time period Cap is simply still in print and media today that's my opinion. Still has room for growth as well in the heirarchy as it is and always will be a MEGA MEGA key and in the end that is what the debate ultimately was about

Very thorough response, thank you. I'm not too familiar with Uncle Sam beyond the basics: created by Eisner, early patriotic hero, etc.

Being the "first" patriotic superhero isn't necessary, nor is Cap's lack therof a mark against him IMO. I don't knock Batman for coming after Zorro, the Shadow or the Crimson Avenger either.

While it would be nice to claim the title of being "the first", I think being "the first breakthrough" is often times the most applicable term for our favorite heroes. Because their creators borrow ideas/inspiration from previous examples, it's difficult for any superhero to be "the first" of anything outside of being breakthrough.

In respects to Captain America not being the first patriotic superhero, I'd like to get feedback from those more familiar than I am, as I rarely stray far from Marvel/DC.

Too often, I feel characters are plastered with American Flag symbolism to sell books without needing to deeply develop the characters, capitalizing on our sense of patriotism. To an extent, I'm sure this is true of Captain America as well.

But delving deeper, I see Captain America as a pre-WWII symbol supporting the fight against Nazism, created by men whose people, with Jewish roots, were directly effected by the horrors faced in Europe at the time. Yes, the red, white and blue was used to create support for that fight, but the heart of the character, and his creators, was deeper than flags or costume colors.

Do any of the pre-Captain America patriotic superheroes posses that depth? If so, who as I am not very familiar.

2 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

I agree with everything you wrote actually.  To be more succinct I can't push the joker ( Cat woman is secondary here to me ) past Cap's 1st appearance with such a classic cover ( however I give the classic cover nod  to Bats 1 here for my $ ).  But using your own argument ( which I agree with ) is exactly why Tec 38 should be higher ranked than Bats 1 ( not even talking about availability here which also wud give the nod to Robin)

I definitely understand the Robin > Joker argument. At the end of the day, it's a tough one, but I would give the nod to the Joker.

The Joker + Catwoman combo beats out Robin, though Tec #38 gets bonus points for having his origin. I think Tec #38 is an underrated book, one of the most important comics ever published. I could make a strong argument for moving it up a tier on my list, but as I stated earlier, I believe the "Top-6" of Action #1, Tec #27, Cap #1, Batman #1 and Marvel #1 are on another level, well above anything that falls into the next tier.

1 hour ago, gino2paulus2 said:

Boy this conversation took a sharp turn into the Bat vs Cap thread didn't it!! 

To me as a 33 year old man (only mentioning this because of generation I guess) is Batman is by far the bigger character it really isn't even close is it?  I say that based on my non comic friends too. They all LOVE Batman and sure Cap was big in the movies (I loved them) but Bats has had more movies (Some good, some bad, and some great), more cartoons, and while I don't do video games I hear more of them as well. His merchandise is EVERYWHERE!!!! Both have AWESOME covers. I personally and if all things were equal would rather have a Captain America #1 but that is because I like those WWII heroes but even on that note as mentioned before Cap wasn't the first and not even closely alone when it came to patriotic heroes of that age. The Shield, US Jones, V-Man, The Flag (Ace), Captain Flag (MLJ), Fighting Yank, Captain Freedom, Miss America, Miss Victory, The Defender, heck Uncle Sam all sported Patriotic themed costumes just to name a few. That being said the Joker wasnt exactly the only villain Clown (Ace) of the time either. Many of the arguments thus far have been purely subjective about which one sports more important first apps. For this day in age both are important. Both are great books. Based on GPA Cap is biting on the heels of Bats #1 in entry level copies but mid to high grade universal still seems to be ruled by Bats #1 doesn't it? I like em both and think both are great books but we are just splitting hairs about which is the better book subjectively only the market can decide that as far as price is concerned. Once again I would rather have a Cap #1 only if all things were equal but I certainly wouldn't brush off a Bats #1 if I could afford one. 

If we were taking Tec #27 vs. Cap #1, the choice would be easy.

But we're not talking about Batman's 1st appearance or Batman's origin (Tec #33), we're talking about Batman's 14th appearance, Joker's 1st appearance, Catwoman's 1st appearance, no origins for anyone (Tec #33 origin/Tec #34 splash both reprinted) vs. the 1st appearance and origin of Captain America and the 1st appearances of the Red Skull and Bucky Barnes. The matchup of those is close to equal IMO, with the slight edge going to Cap #1.

This is subjective of course, but I think we should have a discussion about how we each value and gage "importance" and "significance."

I've heard it said before: a 1st appearance of a villain cannot top the 1st appearance of a hero. I disagree. If you were asked to rank all of the characters in the Marvel and DC universes combined, I'm confident that The Joker would rate higher than the Green Lantern, Flash, Sub-Mariner or Human Torch. But how do we compare supporting characters with leading characters? Batman can exist without the Joker but can the Joker exist, in solo-fashion, without Batman? Is it possible then for the 4th "best" (subjective) superhero to top the No. 1 villain? Possibly. I don't believe there is any perfect formula here.

The 1st appearance of Captain America, it can be argued, is more "important" than the 1st appearance of the Joker, because you're adding some value for him being a main character that could carry himself solo, where the latter could not. And before we go there, yes, there could be a solo Joker film, but I believe with the Joker, less is more. It's one of the many reasons Heath Ledger's portrayal worked so well. The audience kept waiting to see when he would show up next, and his presence was never over-saturated. That feeling of "I wish there was just a little bit more Joker" is exactly why it was the perfect amount. A solo film would be too much Joker, and realistically, I wouldn't expect to see a trilogy of solo Joker films anytime soon. We've already seen a trilogy of Captain America films.

As far as 1st appearances of GA characters, I feel the combination of Captain America/Bucky Barnes/Red Skull matches up really well vs. Joker/Catwoman, but the main character/hero factor + the introduction of a 3rd major character + an even more classic cover pushes Cap #1 ever so slightly past Batman #1. 

Just now, ARCHIVED COLLECTIBLES said:

No. I discard those. I will be getting together tonight with some collecting folks. Will ask around.

Thanks for the feedback. I am going to replace the older packs I have in my safe deposit box, but since I don't go to the safe deposit box on a regular basis, I want to be sure that old packets left inside the box won't become a danger to my comic books over time.

1) I could replace the silica gel packs regularly.

2) I could not use silica gel packs at all as my safe deposit box is always cool and dry anyway.

3) I could leave the silica gel packs in there for extended periods of time when I don't have a reason to go to the safe deposit box.

In the case of number 3, I just want to be sure there isn't a danger in doing so. If there is, I can always switch to number 2 and not use them.

7 minutes ago, ARCHIVED COLLECTIBLES said:

I personally would not want to have an old pack in the box, definitely no. In theory specifically with respect to temperature/heat a pack could not release moisture/water, etc. And you are a testament to said theory above. But again this goes back to the quality/quality control issue. Clearly there are folks who have had problems.  Now they could be outliers or that 5% of error.

But this goes back to my contention of why leave it in there?  Thirty three gram packets are cheap.  ((One other thing to point out, I need to get a little more feedback on,  some types of packs have exploded IF exposed to enough water/moisture. ))

Have you or any other board members ever had any bad experiences with old silica gel packs? 

Not other moisture absorbing products but specifically old silica gel packs typically found in shoe boxes and photo boxes?

10 minutes ago, ARCHIVED COLLECTIBLES said:

With certainty and you would obviously logically concur, I can say that yes you lose that layer of protection absolutely. But there are some variables that I believe give merit to your original questions/premise with respect to potentially causing harm. One big thing being that not all desiccant and silica bags are equal in terms of quality. So in some instances/products and in some environments I could see why some folks are saying they had a problem in that regard. I have not personally experienced this though. 

To give you an analogy that is more apples to oranges, say you have batteries in a TV remote control that expire and no longer work and you just indefinitely left the batteries in the compartment. In some environments and/or in some particular battery brands, those batteries will end up leaking and potentially causing harm to the device. I believe that if we have gone to this much trouble i.e. slabbing, or mylar/fullbacks etc. you have to see it through all the way. 

I've always used standard silica gel packs, like the ones you find in shoe boxes or Hallmark photo boxes. Even old ones I've left in hot temperatures have never leaked, or appeared to contain moisture. I've never seen any residual damage done to collectibles stored with them, be it in safe deposit boxes or plastic storage containers at home.

Do you think there's a danger to having old silica gel packs in a safe deposit box and if so, what are some of the potential effects they might have?

17 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Supes did start it all for DC, but he is losing it in popularity to Batman, similar to how Fantastic Four started it all for Marvel,but now Spider-Man has eclipsed them in popularity.

Rememember folks my argument is eventually in the future 

Captain America Comics #1 and Batman #1 will both be passing Superman #1

Detective Comics #27 passing Action Comics #1 within the decade.

I am not saying it is happening now. Just want to clarify that. 

 

Many years ago, I argued that Tec #27 would eventually surpass Action #1, due to amongst other factors, my generation (I'm 28) rising to greater spending power and dictating the market.

It's been about 7-8 years and Action #1/Tec #27 are still in about the same place, with Action #1 in the lead. Give my generation another 10-15 years, when our spending power rises, then we'll see if it makes a dent.

I grew up loving both Superman and Batman, but the latter was my preference. More action figures, more Halloween costumes, preference for his animated series, definitely better video games (see: Arkham series). But even considering all of that, I find myself in the minority amongst my generation in that my preference as an adult is Superman.

I'd take an Action #1 over a Tec #27, a Superman #1 over a Batman #1. I think older generations have rubbed off on me. I read old price guides, magazines, books...I talk to collectors who collected in the 1960s-1980s and I care about the grails of yesteryear: Detective #1, Adventure #40, More Fun #52, etc.

I don't think I am a very good representation of what my generation will come to prefer. In 20 years, I could see Tec #27 surpassing Action #1, but due to reasons of scarcity alone, I think Superman #1 will be difficult to budge from 3rd place.

5 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

Not done yet. Missing 27, 30 and 32.

Know anyone with a 27 ?

You could always win the Tec #27 NG. I suspect complete coverless copies are now in the 30-40K range, anything with a cover 100K+.