Wayne-Tec

The fact that it has a history component that AC1, Tec27... or for that matter AF15 and BB28 do not have... could be a strenght, but it could definitely also be a weakness.

 

Because whereas the others are timeless... their stories and legends exist like timeless fairytales..while CA1 is tied to a particular time in history. What happens when WWII is a distant memory like perhaps "Battle at the River Jhelum"?? Will CA1 loose some relevance because it is not as timeless as the other big ones?

 

Many in this thread have a CA1, so I'm not counting on people saying "yes, it will loose relevance".. hhehe... but just consider it..

Captain America's battles against the Nazis in Cap #1 are not much more era-specific than Superman's battles against Great Depression-related struggles in Action #1.

Simply not fighting villains tied to a specific year is not what makes characters or stories "timeless", and by the same token, fighting villains or wars that actually took place during specific years does not disqualify a book from being timeless either.

Unlike Action #1, Tec #27 and AF #15, which included only one hero-story a piece, Cap #1 features four hero stories—including the hero's origin (absent from Tec #27) and the 1st app. of his arch-nemesis (absent from Action #1, Tec #27 and AF #15).

Where has cap 1 outsold marvel 1 grade for grade

I'm not saying it won't, but what are the same time frame sales that confirm that statement?

 

Last sales I looked at are quite dated as marvel 1 has been pretty scarce in the market lately so maybe I missed something?

With GA books, it's awfully tough for there to be comparative sales, grade-for-grade, within a close timeframe. I was basing it off of a few factors, one of which was your response to my question in the Ask Gator thread recently regarding current FMV for Universal 2.0 copies:

Captain America 1 ...25k-30k

Marvel 1...25k

If a Universal 2.5 copy of Marvel #1 came to the market with tape along the entire spine and an extra staple, I doubt it would sell for $39,000+ the way a Cap #1 recently did.

Back in February, I posed the question in this thread regarding Cap #1 vs. Marvel #1 and the overall sentiment seemed to indicate that Cap #1 had taken the top Timely spot.

If I'm mistaken and recent sales figures indicate otherwise, please point me in the right direction.

Scarcity-wise, Marvel #1 has Cap #1 beat, but Cap #1 has surpassed it value-wise regardless. There was a time when Marvel #1 was more valuable than Superman #1, and that love of the Marvel Universe was a major driving force behind that. The "Marvel zombie"/GA collector looked to Marvel #1 as their holy grail. Now, many Marvel collectors look to Cap #1 that way.

Rick, I hear you loud and clear regarding where Superman #1 has stood in a hierarchy-sense for decades, and why it's scarcity is a major contributing factor to its value. I wouldn't be surprised if it continues to be the more valuable book of the two for many years to come.

But I do know that factors of scarcity and "trophy" did very much exist for Marvel #1, and that book has since fallen below Cap #1. I also know that the next generation of collectors, the ones who will rise to greater spending power in another 20+ years did not grow up with with nearly the same love for Superman (overall) as those born in the 1930's-1970's did. Considering the fact that they will be the ones to determine FMV 20 years from now, I think it would be a major oversight to expect the same results, hierarchy-wise, from a group that collectively has very different tastes.

I wouldn't agree with this. My guess is the % of age vs ownership is probably about the same. There are way less copies of supes 1 in the market (unrestored) so perception is probably not all that accurate relative to ownership

Rick, are you saying that you feel there to be just as many Superman #1 owners in their 20's-30's as there are in their 40's-60's?

Because it is my belief that the majority of Superman #1 owners are likely to be in their 40's or older. Collectors born after Burton's Batman in 1989 grew up in a different era entirely vs. those who grew up in the 1930's-1970's. Superman's popularity has not been the same since, and I'm speaking as a collector in his mid-20's who loves the character much, much more than those who I grew up with.

Prior generations have a lot more incentive to want a Superman #1. It's easier to cherish that "trophy" when it features a character you love. When talking about the next generation of collectors, I think it's going to be a lot harder when the book features a character you don't even like that much.

"Trophy" + "Nostalgic love" = amazing results

"Trophy" + "lack of nostalgic connection & interest in the character" = less amazing results

At the very least, we will see how a coming generation of collectors treats books featuring a character that many of them didn't even like. That's not a blanket statement as there will always be collectors like myself who love Superman, and who understand that Superman #1 is much more than just a trophy book.

But Cap #1 is in rarified, exclusive air as the top book from the undisputed top company.

The Winter Soldier--which still has room for growth as it's only been about three months since its release-- has already blown the highly anticipated Man of Steel out of the water in the box office to the tune of $712,000,000 to $668,000,000.

I see enough factors in play here to, at the least, shorten the gap between Superman #1 and Cap #1.

I don't subscribe to certainty. 40 years ago, no one would have fathomed that Marvel Comics #1 would be on the verge of being pushed out of the Top-10 most valuable Golden Age books. A lot has changed over the decades, and I don't think the possibility bluechip proposed in respects to Cap #1 vs. Superman #1 is out of line.

Early Superman Action covers will never have a problem selling. I love Timelys first but I recognize the historical significance and prestige of Early Superman and Batman Actions and Detectives.

 

Most young collectors are priced out of these early Superman comics.

But a certain % rich youngsters will always buy what makes them feel prestigious.

Superman is more iconic than he is popular, in respects to present day audiences (overall).

The character's rich history will keep the prices of his most desirable issues strong. I'm not suggesting that Superman/Action books will struggle, I'm simply suggesting that certain books will face some stiff competition as younger generations rise to greater spending power and have to decide which book is more desirable.

Cap 1 will not move past superman 1. While waynetec statements make sense and are valid, folks playing in that end of the pool generally (not all of course) don't care as much about that as they do the "trophy". The rareness factor drives the 6 fig + pricing. That factor alone (rarity) will keep supes above cap 1 price wise

Another factor to consider, and it's a big one, is that (and correct me if I'm mistaken) the majority of Superman #1 owners are from an older generation, one that grew up loving Superman. Collectors who are presently in their 20's-30's don't have the same positive exposure to the character as older generations. But that younger generation has also pushed the Marvel Universe into another stratosphere.

In the history of our hobby, most Superman #1 owners have come from generations where Superman was beloved. Things have obviously changed drastically over the past 25 years. Comic collecting is extremely nostalgia-driven, so it's not unreasonable to expect that when the younger generations rise to greater spending power, they may be more inclined to invest great sums of money into characters they love, as opposed to characters like Superman, who unfortunately isn't even remarkably liked by many young collectors.

Cap 1 will not outpace Action 1 or Tec 27 but it could outpace Supe 1. Holding it back is the fact that it's more commonly found than the others. But it's a first appearance as well as a #1, and it's got a real history component, as the man says, which the others do not have. The cover can be appreciated on levels beyond that of any other golden age key.

 

If the #1 itself is going beyond the reach of many, then maybe consider the books that contained ads for Cap 1 which were on the stands before Cap 1 itself. At least one of those ads features a prelim image of cap before the wings were added to his head. And these books can be found pretty cheap

Scarcity is a factor but in special cases (e.g. AF #15), it doesn't have as much of an impact as you'd think because the demand is so high. It's place as the top book, from the top company puts in rarified air. I wouldn't be shocked to see it move past Superman #1.

IMO, Cap #1 has only begun to scrape the surface of its potential.

It's long been recognized for its "classic cover", and as a very desirable book, but it's really so much more. Unlike any other GA book that I can think of, Cap #1 has a real word connection that makes it undeniably unique. Not only was it Simon and Kirby's first breakthrough creation (akin to FF #1 being Stan Lee's first breakthrough creation), but it was a real world response to the evils of Nazism. Simon and Kirby were both Jewish and Cap #1 was a political, personal statement to show their desire for the U.S. to enter WWII.

Lex Luthor, the Joker, Two-Face -- they're all great villains of fiction. But the real world of the early 1940's was facing a real life threat, a real life evil unlike anything ever seen in modern history. Captain America's origin was tied in, storyline-wise, as a direct response to that real world threat. He was America's answer -- physically, emotionally and symbolically. That real world relevance puts the character on a different level than his contemporaries of the time. Because of this, Captain America can be appreciated by both comic book fans and students of history alike. The voice and vision of the American man was captured in Cap #1.

Beyond that, Cap #1 has ascended to claim the spot as the hobby's most valuable "Marvel" comic book. And as I've stated before, that's very significant to the many collectors who was "Marvel zombies" and don't really care for DC. To them, Action #1 and Tec #27 don't hold the same appeal -- they want the very best of what their universe has to offer. The fact that Marvel has gone on to become the industry's No. 1 company is highly significant. Because we're not talking about Cap #1 as the top book of a cult company -- we're talking about the top book, born from THE top company.

We've seen the T206 Honus Wagner card (a player with little modern day relevance, comparatively speaking) break the $2,000,000 mark. We've seen stamps sell for millions of dollars. When you consider the very direct, very relevant connections Captain America has to modern day forms of entertainment, and the vast room comic books still have to grow in a world record sense -- I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that a CGC 9.8 Cap #1 could be a $2,000,000 book.

Before the $1,000,000 sale of the CGC 8.0 Action #1, the perception of how valuable a comic book could be was vastly different. In a short period of time, that changed tremendously. Due to factors of both nostalgia and modern-relevance, comic books are very unique. And there's a plethora of reasons to think that there's still a lot of room for significant growth.

I don't think it would be out of line to call that Cap #1 CGC 9.4 one of the most amazing comic books in existence.

It's the second highest graded copy on the CGC census.

Amazing!

Is there any story behind it? Any background regarding how much the book means to you?

Members of the Captain America Comics #1 Club as of 7/17/14:

4 CGC Universal copies, 2 CGC Restored copies and 4 raw copes.

CGC Universal:

9.4 (OW); sartre (11)

7.0 (OW/W); Moetown (8)

5.0 (OW); Ihcomics (1)

3.5 (LT/OW); Ameri (5)

CGC Restored:

7.0 (CRM/OW)--Extensive (P); AnkurJ (1)

0.5 (SB); Wayne-Tec (1)

Raw Copies:

buttock (1)

gadzukes (3)

geofan (7)

Junkdrawer (9)

Members of the Captain America Comics #1 Club as of 7/14/14:

3 CGC Universal copies, 2 CGC Restored copies and 4 raw copes.

CGC Universal:

7.0 (OW/W); Moetown (8)

5.0 (OW); Ihcomics (1)

3.5 (LT/OW); Ameri (5)

CGC Restored:

7.0 (CRM/OW)--Extensive (P); AnkurJ (1)

0.5 (SB); Wayne-Tec (1)

Raw Copies:

buttock (1)

gadzukes (3)

geofan (7)

Junkdrawer (9)

Something to consider regarding Cap #1 is that it has ascended to claim the spot as the most valuable "Marvel" comic book in existence. While the top-graded AF #15 might outsell the top graded Cap #1, the latter is the clear winner in lower grades.

Many of us, myself included, have a love for both Marvel and DC. But there are a lot of people out there who almost exclusively love Marvel. To them, Action #1/Tec #27 doesn't hold a ton of luster because they're genuinely not into DC books or characters.

So for those "Marvel Zombies" out there -- Cap #1 is the absolute pinnacle of comic collecting. Being the most valuable book, of the undisputed No. 1 company, leaves a lot of room for growth. Recently, we've seen the rise in prices reflect this accordingly.

But given the factors stated above and considering the distance Cap #1 still has from the top DC books, I wouldn't be surprised to see this book ascend even further.

The 3.5 copy on CL is listed as "Sale pending" at $44,500.

If that ends up being official, it looks to be quite the bargain, considering a 2.5 just sold for $39,101.

Here's mine

 

Members of the Batman #1 club as of 7/5/14:

*10 CGC universal copies, 2 CGC NG universal copies, 6 CGC restored copies and 5 raw copies.

CGC Universal:

4.0 (CRM/OW); Bunky Brian (28)

3.5 (OW/W); G.A.tor (12)

3.5 (CRM/OW); sarte (10)

3.0 (OW/W); Bunky Brian (28)

2.5 (OW/W); Shortspanishguy (32)

2.5 (OW); Dark Knight (15)

2.5 (CRM/OW); Racer-X (1)

2.0 (OW/W); Primetime (4)

2.0 (OW/W); airwalker (36)

1.8 (OW/W); Bunky Brian (28)

NG Coverless, missing 1st wrap (B); BaltimoreLauren (1)

NG 22nd page (OW/W); Irish75 (27)

CGC Restored:

7.5 (OW/W)--Moderate (P); Xavier Logan (5)

7.0 (OW)--Moderate (P); ciorac (2)

6.0 (CRM/OW)--Moderate (P); RedFury (2)

5.5 (OW)--Extensive (P); goldenacase (14)

5.0 Extensive (P); 50AE_DE (9)

0.5 (CRM/OW)--Slight (A); WayneTec (1)

Raw Copies:

batman_fan; (1)

AnkurJ; (3)

BitterOldMan; (4)

Ihcomics; (4)

woowoo; (33)

Members of the Captain America Comics #1 Club as of 7/5/14:

1 CGC Universal copy, 2 CGC Restored copies and 2 raw copes.

CGC Universal:

5.0 (OW); Ihcomics (1)

CGC Restored:

7.0 (CRM/OW)--Extensive (P); AnkurJ (1)

0.5 (SB); Wayne-Tec (1)

Raw Copies:

buttock (1)

gadzukes (3)

I guess I've been in a coma. He's asking $52,500 for a 3.5 and he's turned down $43,000?

 

Hard to believe this book can hold these kinds of values, but what do I know?

A 2.5 with tape along the entire spine, with the cover re-attached with an extra staple sold for $39,000 -- considering this is a 3.5, and an well presenting 3.5 -- I don't think $43,000 is going to cut it with today's FMV.

Thanks for the kind words all - now got to get this scanner sorted out...

Impressive sig-line!

Happy 4th of July!

I can't think of a more appropriate day to kick off the Captain America Comics #1 Club.

Here is my ticket:

Here is my copy.

 

That is a beautiful looking 2.0.

Any history behind picking up this piece of history, for you personally?

This thread needs a...

 

There is a Batman #1 CGC Restored 0.5, missing back cover, copy in CL's focused auction ending in a little less than two days.

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fauctions%2Fpreview%2Easp%3Fcode%3D2014june%26session%3D2%23Item%5F1016473&id=1016473

 

It's currently at $4,095. Any guesses as to how much it will close for?

Does anyone know the final hammer on this one?

I would put trimming in green personally

Agreed Rick.

It's a bit ironic considering that clipped coupon book are eligible for the green label. In cases of amateur trimming that does not improve the grade or appearance of the book, or in cases where it actually hurts the eye appeal -- a green label would seem appropriate. (thumbs u

A book that was not color touched or tear sealed or anything else but was clearly cut -- and clearly damaged -- to fit in some kid's school notebook has not been restored.

 

You may dislike books that are restored and you may also dislike books that are trimmed whether or not the trimming improves the appearance. You may even consider them equally bad.

 

But the word "restored" means "restored"

 

It does not mean "restored OR something else considered equally bad"

I agree.

Merriam-Webster defines "restoration" as:

: the act or process of returning something to its original condition by repairing it, cleaning it, etc.

: the act of bringing back something that existed before

: the act of returning something that was stolen or taken

A book that has been poorly trimmed, thus not "improving" the condition of the book or "bringing it back to something that existed before" does not meet that criteria.

I would expect a smattering of Bill's post in this thread

Bill has good taste.

Content wise you are correct but considering that every issue from that bound volume is in that auction I don't believe the seller's intention in butchering a perfectly fine and well preserved bound volume was quite so well intentioned . And to make matters worse, the books don't even present nicely in slab. Yech.

 

-J.

I believe it presents better in the slab than it would within the bound-volume, but that's a matter of personal preference.

One of the many cool things about Batman #1 is, as I said before, how different it is from the rest of the run. Many incorrectly believe that the Batman stories became soft after the introduction of Robin -- but the Joker stories in Batman #1 are easily the darkest of the Golden Age.

Pre-Robin Tec stories (the last of which was actually printed in Batman #1) may have had that gothic theme, but the Joker stories in Batman #1 were psychological and surprisingly dark for a book that sports such a bright, positive front cover.