Iceman399

No, the point is that people should follow the guidelines and not post sales threads before they a) have the book in hand or b) have a scan or picture up. Not going to happen. Individuals want to capitalize right away when they can. Cons/exclusives/presales/hype etc. Not saying it is right, just saying it won't happen.

No, we're talking about Jaybuck's post not jsilvers I have an opinion on the other one (similar to yours I'd assume) but it doesn't matter unless wipple complains here about it, right? My bad. I think others should be entitled to know if a seller is doing shady business on the boards. Whether or not he shares may be a different story.

Guys are missing the point. 1) Gambit wanted it pending pics 2) Wipple if Gambit passes (all good thus far) 3) Wipple informed he gets it if Gambit passes 4) Gambit Passes 5) Wipple doesn't win the book

If I had to guess.....he got a higher offer via PM Are we allowed to agree with you? If so BANG!

While he may be a scumbag you don't want to deal with, I don't think it's probation worthy. If this isn't PL worthy what is?? Why do we even have this list? It's totally probation worthy. The problem is, there's got to be a way to get off the PL for the guy. That would force Jimmy to take his payment and ship him his books. If he offers to do that and Jimmy refuses he comes off the list. Since Jimmy doesn't want to deal with him, since he's threatened to scam Jimmy, he could put him on the list but then he'd come right off when he offered to pay. Jimmy's better off not dealing with him at all, and he knows that. He's certainly a wild card but the way the PL list works Jimmy would be forced to deal with him in order to follow the protocol. That's a bad idea for Jimmy. That's why I said it isn't PL worthy. There's no way for the issue to be resolved. In my personal dealings with 8802, I found him to be a flake, so I am biased. To me it is worthy, the offended party ( Jimmy ) should not have to suffer because the offender ( 8802 ) has no out. The offender should have to find another way out, he is in the wrong and should try and get off the list in any way he sees fit if the deal is off. Apologies and remorse can count as a starting point Precisely this. Doesn't have to be complete the transaction but prove they have learned not to be a dumbasshat

Oh maybe. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of repro covers but they do make fugly coverless copies look a whole lot more respectable. Why send to CGC? Mylar + Repo Cover =

While he may be a scumbag you don't want to deal with, I don't think it's probation worthy. If this isn't PL worthy what is?? Why do we even have this list? It's totally probation worthy. The problem is, there's got to be a way to get off the PL for the guy. That would force Jimmy to take his payment and ship him his books. If he offers to do that and Jimmy refuses he comes off the list. Since Jimmy doesn't want to deal with him, since he's threatened to scam Jimmy, he could put him on the list but then he'd come right off when he offered to pay. Jimmy's better off not dealing with him at all, and he knows that. He's certainly a wild card but the way the PL list works Jimmy would be forced to deal with him in order to follow the protocol. That's a bad idea for Jimmy. That makes sense - I see now It has been discussed many times that the way for one to get off the list doesn't have to be agreed with by the other who put them on there as it could be used as blackmail in a sense. I would rather see Jimmy nominate him for his shenanigans (as it puts a record of it) and have a way for him to get off ie. donation to a charity (which in this case is the best option) as it doesn't have the possibility to impact Jimmy with the scam. Which IMO is almost enough to warrant a HOS nomination as a dirty thieving .

Not that it matters in most peoples eyes, but the "stain" was NEVER brought up during any of our PM's Surprisingly hardly any questions were asked. As much as I don't want to use a car comparison - I think it's accurate. If I see a valuable car I want to purchase online, with plenty of photos and lengthy description - I will order a vehicle history report. Regardless of how detailed the seller's description is, problems that are disclosed from the history report of things I can't see (like major body/frame repairs, lack of maintenance, etc) - could affect the value or resale after I purchase it. Grader's notes seemed to have illuminated some problems SD may not have known about. But they are there, and the staining plays a part in the grade and would likely deter the resale value down the road. I don't believe anyone is being dishonest in this situation at all. I don't disagree with Bob's position - just as I would not intend to follow through on a sale of a car that looked great, ran great and was extensively described - only to find out from a third party there were severe problems that would affect it's value in comparison to other vehicles in the same condition. I agree with what you said up till the end. You have already seen the photos, and the description call up the seller and say I will take it sending money tomorrow and provide all of your details. During a restless sleep you think I should check the car history, at this point you discover something that the REPUTABLE Car dealership missed or was unaware of and now want out.

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response. So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises. Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy" Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor. Two things that stick out to me: 1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy. 2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed. Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false. I don't know. Do you see a difference between: 1) I don't think it's a stain; and 2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure? If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would. I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong. It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers. Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false. I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one. I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter. In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain. I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion? What Dan said the second time was an opinion. He stated the first one as fact. That is why books should not be sold that are not in the hand of the seller so he can check them and verify the questions as fact. Well, I don't agree that books should have to be in hand, for the reasons I wrote above. Also, there's no guarantee that you'd be able to answer a question definitively in every case, even if you did have the book. Sometimes, it's going to come down to an opinion. yes, it should come down to some opinion. After all, books are graded and priced based on opinion, but if an item is misrepresented, be it accidental or minute, the buyer should have a way out of the transaction. Especially since Dan did not state an opinion in the PGM thread, he stated an opinion as a verified fact. It was not a verified fact, it was an opinion. How can you misrepresent your own opinion? If I sell a raw book and say "in my opinon, this would grade CGC 8.0", and someone buys it and it comes back a CGC 7.5, you're saying they should get a refund? Nonsense. and when it gets an CGC 8.5 you should give me more money.

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response. So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises. Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy" Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor. Two things that stick out to me: 1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy. 2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed. Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false. I don't know. Do you see a difference between: 1) I don't think it's a stain; and 2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure? The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific. In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it" That is different from "I don't think it's a stain." Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand! When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it" You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though. But he linked the PGM thread to the sales thread and basically said "go check here for grade guesses" If he said in a thread in which people guessed grades "There are no moisture stains anywhere on it" that should not change now that he is trying to sell the book. But I never said this... Now we are even you have far too few CAPITAL LETTERS thrown in your sentence Dan.

Perfect analysis. (thumbs u So, Dan and Bob, what do we do now? Bob extended the olive branch and opened up PM's I am waiting to hear back Good to hear! Hopefully you 2 can work something out. I don't think anyone here would disagree when I say this is a sticky situation regardless of what the result is and hope this can be smoothed over.

Good luck with this one. Especially when it comes guys making steam on the hot modern comics or the next movie rumor. As Dan mentioned he tried to time the sale to maximize what he was getting for his book (just like the modern guys). They want to be first to market to maximize the peak, as the deal went on and GPA dropped and had he waited he lost out on potential money. This happens all the time with Con goers as well as someone selling the "next book". Batman adventures 12 skyrocketed late last year with copies trending up to $1000, now you can easily pick the same copy up for $700, those guys that sold on route to them did better as their were few copies on the market and the demand was highest. Beachbum and others often sell convention exclusives and offer 9.8 fast track etc the day they get to the con. Personally I don't pre sell as I don't have the same access as others but just like any business connections and the ability to do so often yield $$$. **edit** This can also be applied to such things as SS opps or commission pieces, hey the sig is slightly tilted I don't want it, the green is too dark on the character. Now we would expect these guys to stand in line get books signed and hope they don't get stuck holding books because of silly reasons they are allowed to back out of? This is why I wouldn't agree with adding it to the rules. While I do agree that all 8.0's are not created equally and it's easy to tell some are much nicer than others with wraps, PQ, presentability. But, I think it's pretty safe to assume a modern 9.8 is a modern 9.8. They're always white pages and miswraps seem a thing of the past. It really comes down to Bob's unconditional . If he was a picky collector he should have taken it pending scans. In that case I would normally side with the seller. But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain". I think something like this isn't the norm necessitating an addition to the rules. Doesn't have to be a modern, I have been looking for 2 copper books and the miswraps or white spines have been the reason I won't pull the trigger on them. Think of ASM 129, believe you were looking for a well wrapped book. If tomorrow they announced that there was going to be a new ASM vs Punisher movie do you think ppl would be selling books before they had them in hand? Absolutely there would be a mad rush on them and as soon as they had grades from cgc up go a few pre sub pics and the cgc grade. I agreed with you. I was saying that the rule would apply to everything (incl. CA) but Moderns. I think Moderns are the only place that all 9.8's are the same! They aren't I have personally not purchased a few moderns because CGC gave it a 9.8 with a colour breaking spine tick.

I don't want to see Bob put on the PL list. I would rather Dan and him try and work something out to their benefits. However he backed out of an unconditional on something that was found out after he put up the sign. If I buy a book and get it in hands decide get the graders notes and it mentions that there was pen mark on the inside cover I can return the book for a full refund and get my money back? What about cgc used a fat case instead of the skinny case (has happened to books that are either or)? The label notation doesn't have X art in the notes? Very slippery slope there.

Stupid answer go back and read all of the posts then come back and ask a non stupid question

Good luck with this one. Especially when it comes guys making steam on the hot modern comics or the next movie rumor. As Dan mentioned he tried to time the sale to maximize what he was getting for his book (just like the modern guys). They want to be first to market to maximize the peak, as the deal went on and GPA dropped and had he waited he lost out on potential money. This happens all the time with Con goers as well as someone selling the "next book". Batman adventures 12 skyrocketed late last year with copies trending up to $1000, now you can easily pick the same copy up for $700, those guys that sold on route to them did better as their were few copies on the market and the demand was highest. Beachbum and others often sell convention exclusives and offer 9.8 fast track etc the day they get to the con. Personally I don't pre sell as I don't have the same access as others but just like any business connections and the ability to do so often yield $$$. **edit** This can also be applied to such things as SS opps or commission pieces, hey the sig is slightly tilted I don't want it, the green is too dark on the character. Now we would expect these guys to stand in line get books signed and hope they don't get stuck holding books because of silly reasons they are allowed to back out of? This is why I wouldn't agree with adding it to the rules. While I do agree that all 8.0's are not created equally and it's easy to tell some are much nicer than others with wraps, PQ, presentability. But, I think it's pretty safe to assume a modern 9.8 is a modern 9.8. They're always white pages and miswraps seem a thing of the past. It really comes down to Bob's unconditional . If he was a picky collector he should have taken it pending scans. In that case I would normally side with the seller. But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain". I think something like this isn't the norm necessitating an addition to the rules. Doesn't have to be a modern, I have been looking for 2 copper books and the miswraps or white spines have been the reason I won't pull the trigger on them. Think of ASM 129, believe you were looking for a well wrapped book. If tomorrow they announced that there was going to be a new ASM vs Punisher movie do you think ppl would be selling books before they had them in hand? Absolutely there would be a mad rush on them and as soon as they had grades from cgc up go a few pre sub pics and the cgc grade.

Good luck with this one. Especially when it comes guys making steam on the hot modern comics or the next movie rumor. As Dan mentioned he tried to time the sale to maximize what he was getting for his book (just like the modern guys). They want to be first to market to maximize the peak, as the deal went on and GPA dropped and had he waited he lost out on potential money. This happens all the time with Con goers as well as someone selling the "next book". Batman adventures 12 skyrocketed late last year with copies trending up to $1000, now you can easily pick the same copy up for $700, those guys that sold on route to them did better as their were few copies on the market and the demand was highest. Beachbum and others often sell convention exclusives and offer 9.8 fast track etc the day they get to the con. Personally I don't pre sell as I don't have the same access as others but just like any business connections and the ability to do so often yield $$$. **edit** This can also be applied to such things as SS opps or commission pieces, hey the sig is slightly tilted I don't want it, the green is too dark on the character. Now we would expect these guys to stand in line get books signed and hope they don't get stuck holding books because of silly reasons they are allowed to back out of?

I agree with everything you've said. This is a home purchase situation. The sale was made, the contract was signed, but the inspector found a cracked foundation. Yeah but in this case you just can't go to CGC and say, HEY, you gotta fix this stain you found. In your analogy someone comes along and fixes the foundation (or does a shoddy patch job and unloads it on someone else) regardless if the buyer backs out or keeps the place. Oh, and I agree with comix4fun too I think he was just referring to the fact that an inspector finding a material flaw in the agreed upon item invalidates the agreement and allows the parties to rescind the deal without penalty to either party. If that is part of the initial offer ie will buy the house pending an inspection. Sometimes a house is sold as is. I think the best option is for Dan and Bob to take a breather and see it from each other's point of view.

My Dan and Bob take this to pm. Try and work something out. You guys are both important members of the community and think it would be detrimental to everyone to have this crush that. @ Bob maybe you can help find a new buyer at the full price or close to possible and cover the loss @ Dan see it from his point of view and don't see blood if possible

Looks like buyers remorse to me. He tried just about everything to change the concept of the deal...when that was denied he decided maybe there is something I can do with the graders notes. Got them and said small stain there is my ace. Had the events timeline transpired differently it would be a different story. I don't mean to speak for him, but I know Bob personally and I can say with 100% certainty that he's not the kind of guy to weasel out of a deal. I know that he's a very picky collector and that something like that stain would definitely bother him. For whatever that's worth. I hate to see 2 vets go at it over a book of this caliber. I wish they could work something out...my proposition would be something like hey if you can't sell it in the next X amount of time for X amount will cover the loss you are taking cause I backed out.

Looks like buyers remorse to me. He tried just about everything to change the concept of the deal...when that was denied he decided maybe there is something I can do with the graders notes. Got them and said small stain there is my ace. Had the events timeline transpired differently it would be a different story.

We need structured rules to regulate this thread. Can we post some rules about the rules for adjusting the rules?

I find it frustrating as well, but remember that WE put people in the HOS, not the Mods. We don't chose who is banned. I've seen HOS members banned when there was a threat involved, when there was a specific issue such as shills, but unless you can find one of those issues, just plain market place misbehavior does not cut it. I think if you take Arch's rule in the context of...they are NOT going to Police the forum, you may see a better picture.The HOS is all us, not them. I was tempted to ask SolarCadet why he'd start a sales thread when he's out of town, but I would hate to keep bumping his thread. Asking him questions, just puts him on the top. If you let him bump the thread himself too often, we'd have a legitimate complaint about the thread. Though he is "out of town" he is able to ship out right away... maybe the books are already packed up ready to be shipped like those really good deal books on ebay when you ask the seller for additional photos to prove they have the book and they reply sorry already boxed up.

Until you decide you want to sandwich your 5.5 with another 6

Can I ask on what basis you assume that a "no" vote equals support for scammers? You're just kidding, right? Not kidding Who wouldn't want to try to make the boards a better/safer place for sales by implementing some tighter rules with all the NOOB sellers/buyers around here in the past few months who can't take the time to read the rules of the forums, or try to scam someone out of money. Maybe giving a grace period to these new people will allow for the proper time to learn some board etiquette before buying/selling? Also, adding a waiting period for new sellers who are trying to scam may eventually drive them away from here because they don't want to wait weeks to be able to sell since they are looking for the quick $$$ from those people who are caught off guard. It also forces them to interact on the boards by having a post count and gives the rest of the community a chance to get a feel of who the boardie is before deciding to buy from them when they have 1 post. So having a different opinion means I support scammers? How about looking at it this way. Someone who BUYS from someone with 1 post might be supporting a scammer. Someone who posts with one post might be an honest seller. Someone who buys with one post without spending time to check out the boards might be a gambler. You can change the "one" to "200" if it helps you. Someone who reacts to how others vote with such a strong reaction might be over-reacting a tiny bit? I'll stand by my first suggestion last night. We should not allow anyone to post until they have been here for 2 years. Makes as much sense as some of this other stuff, and it's MUCH more likely to protect new people from their own enthusiasm. (yes, I'm joking about the 2 years, but think about the consequences;) Let me clear this up, No I don't think everyone supports scammers who voted no, it was more of a smart way of saying that it comes across to me like 40% of people don't think there is a problem in the sales forums. I know I've been deterred from selling or buying from a lot of people because of the increase in sketchy sales threads on here in the past few months. Turn the computer off for a while, breath a bit and come back with some common sense. Should I really need to put a warning on the fish hook that says "DANGEROUS IF SWALLOWED"?