Mmehdy

The GA comic book market. widget buyer vs TCBC will determine demand and price. CGC pressing the books, HA.com whether or not a shareholder of the CGC are side issues. Maybe on 100 books maybe not, this is OVER 5000 and market conditions are gonna control. The promise books, whether CGC graded or not are great period.

Allentown is the poster child for quality over quantity. The promise collection is both quality and quantity which is quite unusual. I am wondering if anyone has seen any of these promise slabs in person yet? The Cap allentown #1 had a million dollar offer many years ago. It will be interesting to see how they compare in person to Chuch or SF.

Great book and cover. I will take a stab at it and say 3.0 including the defect. I notice no major panels from story were really affected which helps with the overall grade. It looks like to me a possible printing defect as the book in the photo appears to be off center. The real issue is will the cgc give it a Blue, Green, or Purple label....

I doubt that the disclosure will be placed on the label as it is not in the cgc's or any pressing company best business interest to admit to this permissible restoration. I know the counter argument, what is the real difference if you put your ungraded GA book at the bottom of the pile of a stack of other GA books. I feel it is the intent, that counts here. It makes difference to me to me and maybe a handful of other "older" collectors, but is certainly not a deal "killer" as far as not buying the GA comic book itself. You buy the GA comic book, that is the "golden rule" here, and of course you would prefer a untouched GA comic book rather than one with permissible or non permissible restoration.

Jimbo, I think you need to be a bit more flexible and not assume every book sold in the last five years is pressed, a flip or whatever. I really do not think you can by buying any book, enable anyone to make a fast buck of "you" pressed or not. Until the CGC officially puts on every label whether in their professional opinion the book has been "permissibly" pressed we will never know with any kind of reasonable certainty in which to act or chose to buy. I believe, like you that the true meaning of "unrestored" is simple and a very easy term to understand. No "BUTs" whether pressing, cleaning etc etc...just simply the book which was bought at the newsstand untouched and THAT BOOK should be rewarded as a true example of something "untouched". I agree with you, but you cannot put a line in the sand and say 5 years, 5 months, or 5 minutes...each book needs to be judged on its own, looking back at history if available to see if that meets you standards for a blue label true unrestored GA comic booK. I know the arguments that the church books were indirectly or directly pressed by being stacked on one another. I understand that argument. But to me and probably similar in the "coin" field I do penalize some type of alteration. The opposite appears in the art world, where restoration is not a bad word and that it rescues the work itself. However I do not see how taking a untouched GA OO book and pressing it is rescuing anything other than profit maximization for the seller.

I am gonna try to make this one on Sat

I will second that, it's just certain pedigrees have a "extra added value" to an all ready great GA comic. book. I know that certain famous coin collections always add the fact that they were formally in the famous coin collection of like the Sheik of Saudi Arabia or something like that. Also in the art world, especially say the "Charles Martignette" collection sold on the same website HA.com all of the additional information or history adds value or perception of value or authentication of source to the item itself. When everything is and done on the sale of this collection, it will be quality and condition wise that will create one of the top 5 of the 61 GA comic book pedigree's ever documented. But the marketplace will determine how much each book will go for which is different than the Church and SF collections which were sold from comic shop dealers to collectors. I can remember at the time a great backlash when Chuck came in to SDCC with that table full of MH's and other dealers saying he was ripping off everyone etc...everybody said they were to much money, same with SF books which were priced about 2x times guide. However, as time has shown, the price paid in the long run was a true bargain and they turned out to be amazing buys. So in this collection with a wider buyer audience and probably higher prices paid, slowly just like the church and SF collections, these ultra great books get put in GA collections holes and are not gonna come out for a very time. Meaning part of the price of 5x or 10 guide today is that the numbers of available books have dwindled thus the price explosion. This will happen again, as history repeats itself. As time goes on, and more Promise books are put in those collections, the availabilty from that collection will decrease, thus the market price will increase. That is why some smart GA comic book collectors/dealers are gonna buy like 20 books with the intention to sell 3/5 years down the line 10 and thus get the other 10 for free. Not a bad plan, I told him if you have the power and will to simply put them away and forget about them , not having giving in to the tempting 50% profit after two years. Church and Riley just add value to the existing GA comic book period. How much added value is up to the individual collector. In my discussions with my Dealer/Collector friend he has got it down to a science. He is gonna target books in which the Promise collection which out grades the Church or Riley collection after doing research to see if there are any matches or same existing book. I understand get the highest grade of the 3 pedigree's which might even add extra demand. Interesting approach, and there probably another dozen ways to do it. I think it boils down to me, that first I want the book and second if it is a pedigree copy especially Church or SF..or one top five, to adjust my price upwards from previous sales, GPA, and Overstreet (for whatever that is worth). The Pedigree adds value to the overall GA comic book total Package.

Big AA #1 and NY Worlds Fair with the "blonde" superman are two of my all time FAVS of GA Big books. You have great taste and a great collection well worth paying the price to protect it. Congrad and thanks for the great Sunday morning pic.

I hope so, this board and opinions are welcome, if we disagree big deal. I come on these boards to learn things I don't know about..even after 50 years as a TCBC. To change my mind over time about major issues such as restored books Purple vs Blue label. That brings up a good point about how over time one can change a opinion that at the time I held it, I would say I never change it. When I first come on the boards, I had a very low opinion of restored purple label books. If fact, very early on I called them "Junk". I was wrong then, dead wrong. I made cardinal mistake of looking at the label in this instance a color of a label to make a blanket judgment about all of those books. Over the years as the CGC began to relax and allow for restoration which was "ok" or not label changing, the color of the label became a joke to me. It took a lot of board members forcing me to revisit the issue time and time again to slowly change to the point now, that I look at the book, THEN the label and if the only one reasonably priced is purple so be it. I will not buy as a personal preference a "franked" book which has been totally restored, reconstructed and painted etc that issue still in my mind is unacceptable to me for purchase or to be part of my collection. The same goes for the discussion above about a "rat" chew vs a printing error and by the way in my opinion it is a "printing error" unless rat teeth are perfect. I can understand the concern with the grade of that book. Is it a 8.5...I really do not thing a lot of us can tell the difference between a 8.5 and 8.0 and really who cares. I can see if you get back in a time machine and buy that Subby it would be in the same condition as it stands today...amazing. I not ignoring the fact that there is a condition issue here and that it is not perfect. But very few GA's population wise are. But the wonderful thing about these promise books is that the GA comic book market will determine what price it is worth in 2021 and time will tell upon eventual resale or trade whether that was a fair and reasonable price. Given the fact there are over 5000 top GA books coming on, this might be the Best Buy out there time wise. I think the real interesting issue here is gonna be how many books % wise get taken out for long term collectors for their personal collection, how many speculators will get what %, and how many dealers will buy, hold, and then resell within 3 years for a major profit. The legacy and value of this collection will depend on those percentages.

As a buyer of multiple copies of each of the Church and SF I agree with the SF copies being the whitest of all the pedigrees I have ever bought directly with my hands. Both were great, by SF has the clear edge in my opinion.

You raise a great issue about the "future" of comic restoratoin which is not considered or detected by future tech or by changing CGC permissiable non-qualifing restoration and keeping the blue label. I agree with you, that if every one of the 5000+ promise books are pancake pressed that we have upped the level of "non-restoration" and blurred the lines as to what is or is not restoration of the comic book found in originall condition. This promise collection, virgin in nature to the comic book collecting world, certainly tests the boundires as to what is really going here in terms of label color, grading etc. I understand your point, it is the comic book itself not the color of the label or the highest point count, that should be the primary focus here. I agree with you that in and of itself The underrlying comic book has gotten lost in this picture. Paying 10x retail for highest point count on a blue or purple slab is unstaninable in my mind. To make that judgement, that IS the best one in existence,, is just waiting to be blow out of the water, like 4500 of these books are gonna do to 95% of those highest graded issues. At some point, to put things are really a even scale, we are gonna have to drop the color label system and just have a deduciton for any repairs or restoration, otherwise when this new Tech undetected restoration hits the market place it is gonna cause ripples in the GA/SA market place that could affect the long term price stability of this market. It certaily does not help that "new" widget investors are going to invade our great GA/SA market now that cypro$ price wise have become unstable, especially with China going after that. Yes, these buyers will label hunt,filp and get out and never look back. I know you and I love GA/SA comic books, collecting, and sharing real stories and triumph of completing runs or getting hard to find issues, and do not get me wrong,we need CGC more than ever as Tech fiqures out way to get around restoration detection. You are on 100% on your post. What is not discussed on these boards, is the real threat of counterfeit books being made, historicallly which hit the coin fileld from China and other far east counties. That is gonna seperate the men from the boys, and believe me as record after record price is boardcast that you can 3.25M dollars out of very fine comc book that is not gonna help. We need CGC to be fair,strong and alert because it will the CGC that saves us when that dreadful day is upon us. I have really never been so excited in years, as this promise collection has brought be back to the "good old days" of going into the Comic and Comics Berkley comc book store and seeing boxs of SF mint GA comic books on the shevles. To me, the promse collection is a third chance with SA/Chuch now being a long time ago in a comic book world far far away.

hold, great book.

As I recall at the SDCC comic con panel that with Gaines daughter and Al Feldstien or she was in attendance, she might be the owner of the held back set, as I rember Bill did not care about the top condition, he took the lesser of the copies. What a amazing thing to do back then.

The EC's were sold directly to collectors thru Russ Cochran by mail. They were sold in sets by title and each set was graded 1-10. Russ and Bob Overstreet went to NY to opent those books with Bill Ganies and used gloves to handle them. I think told me that it was simply amazing to see those books and unwrap them. One set was held out and a few issues like Vault #12 only had 2 copies, I do not think he had any tales of terror an#1 either which is why that books is a must have for any serious GA collectors.

Unlike Church, SF which were first sold to dealers whom sold them to collectors, this is more a "Billy Wright" on steroids type sale. Never before will EVERY collector have a shot at ALL 5000 plus books on a eve playing field. Billys 367 was a taste of things like, so never before nor never again will an OO 50000+ GA comic book collection be available directly.

SF collection up there with church, both from both, both the best I have ever seen until promise...we will see after 5000 of them are revealed.

The GA protection that SA does not have if the fact that High grade GA comic books are much rarer and of course were not "saved" by collectors such as the Marvesl were in the 1960's. I agree the GA comic book market is a related but different animal all together. Due to rarity and collectability being earlier in time, the MCU downfall or decline should have little effect, I do not see the wheels falling off, will have no impact on this GA comic book market prices and especially on ultra high grade copies. So who cares...the same with printed comic books being or going digital, or the fact that sales of new comic books get lower each year...little or no effect on the GA market and value. I would say it makes perfect sense to convert some SA material in to GA, whether it is buying the best of the best promise books and waiting and buying the traded down books on the open market if you feel the wheels are gonna fall off of MCU.

A TCBC can buy, sell, trade anytime. I told you about a collector who is going to buy two similar books and flip one out 3/5 years to cover the costs of both He is a TCBC who is just using smart business to make his collection better. He is not a widget seller who can care nothing for US, GA comic books other than profit.

sorry 2 to 3 X guide was the minimum.

This an unprecedented time on the boards for an unprecedented OO 5000 ultra high grade collection. Tempers are going to be put to the test. As I have stated, this is it...this is it...the one last time you and all other GA and possible SA collectors who wish to dip can get a pedigree once in a lifetime collection directly from the owners. If we refocus our energy to the task at hand, we already have a big job ahead of us. First there are over 5000 books to chose from. Pick you battles on few 5/10 books and look out on the weekly auctions for the bargains that is 1/5 of 1% should be manageable. Second research all price history and similar books with major pedigrees. Especially if you can trace a 20 year price appreciation history to gauge how much you might overpay now and when recovery will take effect. Chose if you can the weak spots of your collection or consider expanding your collection to get one or two new "type" of GA books to keep as an example. Their is a fellow board member whom I talk to on the phone with and his plan is to get 1-super hero, 1-War, 1 crime etc and put them away for a long long time. Have the staying power to be able hold the book for at least 2/3 years. Chose the book not the grade per se, that is if you like a "war" book cover or issue or contents better go for the 9.0 book that you like vs a graded 9.6 with an inferior cover. For those on the board who have been here for a while, go with your gut instead of your head. A inferior book could be a "bargain" but I would go quality over quantity. Chose your speculation buys carefully. I know of one non-board member collector who is going to buy two of a kind GA ultra high grade books, with the idea of selling one of those in 2/5 years for double the amount and getting the remaining book free. Not a. bad plan if you select wisely. For those who have said I cannot afford this collection, I would try to buy one "book". First you are gonna thank me in 3/5 years and say I wish had bought more, Second you are not gonna want to part with that book unless you get 2x or 5x what you paid, and third if you had to sell some dupes or low grade material which can easily be bought again in the open market, maybe even in better shape when you rebuy, you are gonna thank me. We have over 5000 books here, you should be able to find one, do not give up. Once the last book is sold, everyone will realize the opportunity we had. I remember a great story at SDCC when chuck brought the mile high comics to SDCC. I remember the owner of the "book Sail"...that was a comic book and collectors book store which paid the highest prices for comics, art-especially pulp paintings like the HJ Ward "Evil Flame" which resold on HA.Com for the world record price of $147K. They had just bought like 10K worth of mile high comics, in fact I remember going to lunch with them, John and Dave was his assistant, and I asked the mile high girl for a discount on the stack that I bought and she pointed said, they just bought 10K of books with no discount given, I am assuming she right about that and we did not discount them a penny and they were priced 2/3 times guide at the time for the little stuff and then I even bought some romance comics... I paid full price andthat is how great they were. With that in mind, when it comes to the price at the "time" ,take a look forward, you have the opportunity at will thousands of others to obtain one the highest graded or top copy, not in a auction where it stands alone, but in a crowd of 5000 others. Just like I competed at the SDCC against the Mega dealer the the "Book Sail" at the time as they had gone back. and thumbing for books for another buy. There is enough for everyone, this time as well and do not let the "book Sail" types discourage you. I did not.

I think if every book is pressed in this promise collection , it will set a precedent for the other auction houses to follow by necessity. I do not think any serious GA collector today, after the last couple years is gonna leave any money on the table. Especially with auctions fees and grading fees and pancake pressing fees and rushed grading fess..etc. Especially for a major GA collections which has yet to be graded or upgraded with the new acceptable restoration. What I do see is 18 month window to revisit the "church" type collection that many on the boards were not here when those and the SF collections were released.I think every GA collector should attempt to find out what is in the collection, what do you have to acquire to make your GA collection that much better. Collector's who cannot afford or want to pay the price, still should get the fallout of the under graded copies which are gonna be let go after getting the book from the promise collection. Why hold on to it when you own the best, plus you can sell and get more "promise". Lou, I do not think it matters who it went to CC,HA or CL it is for the very smart GA collectors not gonna make a difference. I prefer of course the HA format of bidding not every 3 mins etc and just buying the darn thing. I think also there is not contest on websites and live auctions which can witness. Yes a bigger platform but also more accessible to everyone and with more eyes on the auction the better. I have said this before on early posts, CC and CL should give Ha say 10% of the profit and run their auctions on their platform. Otherwise, you will continue to see Ha break world record comic auctions totals 2/3 times a year and CC/CL totals are just gonna be a blip.

This could be the big next trend, especially with a large number of Bronze collections out there. However, the "promise collection: is the last of the GA OO 5000 book collection in existence. As a GA collector who hopes to snag 5/10 of these books, great...suck some of that speculative money out of the GA upcoming auction and divert it to this...we should all be promoting this auction....LOL

I always found dealers going guide or above in the early 70's in the conventions, probably because of the cost of the tables etc. I disagree with you measuring stick of GA comic book prices at " Guide Multiples" "Guide" is not no longer a guide, it a book which is within the shadows with some ancient pricing thing Bob Overstreet used to create out GA/SA comic book world. He always underpriced each year such that the "next" guide prices would go up no matter what...then many years later he proudly showed how GA/SA prices were slowly always in a upward direction. The Price guide is dead in my opinion when it comes to pricing any GA/SA comic book in today's market. You can be 10X what that books says in a once a year snapshot of prices according to its structure and that does not mean anything. The Price guide today is a shadow of what it was and what it was meant to do in the 1970's. It a for advertisers and revenue, catch-up pricing for those unaware of the Auction Archives and GPA, histories of comic book collecting published 40x, and pictures of some GA/SA books which you can access on the internet with a simple search.It is published now simply until people figure out it is 95% the same material every year with a different cover. I am unsurprised that it is not 20x times what this guide price is today . One of my major beef's was the ignoring of "Pedigree" collections such as the Church and SF in that guide .He sat by silently with the all powerful guide and did not take into account, historical finds which elevate the GA comic book itself. Remember the name itself ..Guide...that is all it is. When I purchased Action #1 for over $1800..Guide price In Mint was around $600....I had a collector come up to be and say...But Overstreet guide price is a lot lower and my response to him and the other people was this exactly "Buy it from Bob Oversteet". I appreciate you raising the issue of price valuation, especially now with this unique GA collection coming on to our radar in the next 18 months. My opinion as to what a current market price is......The Ga/SA comic book market is worldwide, instant like oatmeal in package, and is subject to the two "highest bidders" controlling the market price. Even if the third bidder is 30% below #1 and #2...it will never be recorded on one of the big 3 auction sites to the public. So anything goes, if you stick by my advice...you buy the book, make a independent judgement as to condition in your mind, and adjust your price paid if there is added historical significance to the book. When looking at past prices, and that is what they are..past prices with past competition which cannot account for new buyers in the bidding pool understand you only have the information as to the two top bidders on the final price result if the GA book has been sold recently in a auction site. Paying current market price does not always work out, I say buy with you "GUT" instinct. If it feels right, if really want the book, then don't let the past history, Price Guide or whatever hold you back....go for it and good luck.

probably in the middle somewhere....they were taking about holes in runs...I know very few people were actually there, let alone remember about the SF..really Comics and Comics collection like I was. Back then the collection came in 3 waves as it was split between 3 siblings. So nobody knew until each wave hit, one collector, God rest his soul, bought out almost the entire thrid wave when it was taked to the SDCC. A lot of those books were sold by Erine Gurber who published the Photo Journel Guide. That is another long long story, and you had to be there to see how that played out. My point is there is a "possibility" that this is not the total collection. I think they get that across in the video. My take its 1/10 that something else is out there which is coming from the collection, and 5/10 that if it existed it is already out here.

I agree with you buy the book not the label. However where I disagree is the there is actual historical value of a pedigree book. It is special and does have additional value to me as a long term TCBC. So I understand your postion, but I disagree with it, I woud take the Pedigree book every time on a same grade situation and even pay more for that GA Comic book. I see your point and concern on 5x or 10x market value just becasue of the Label...but again I buy book first....