VintageComics

I don't think anyone should be porked out of a couple hundred dollars, but as a buyer when does a buyer's liability come into play? This is not personal against JD but since he asked, this is how I believe it should be handled. If I'm buying books at someone else's advertised grades but I'm expecting a CGC grade and the seller doesn't offer a CGC grade guarantee, there should be no liability on the part of the seller if the book doesn't grade out by CGC, should there? I've seen it at shows where board reputable board members come up to reputable dealers and they want to buy a book that is going to make a profit for them and then ask the dealer his opinion on the CGC grade. If someone is buying books for resale, there needs to be some liability on the buyer's part. The buyer needs to do their due diligence and then take the hits and the wins. It can't all just rest on the seller. My personal opinion is that if you are getting into the business of making money from comics, you can't have it both ways. You can't plead ignorance when you lose and take the money and run when you win. To me that's only fair.

I personally don't put any weight on a seller's grades. If I'm buying for resale, I assess my own grades and then pay accordingly. Some sellers will give you a CGC grade guarantee (bang on, or 1 grade off, returns allowed, etc) but that's the exception. If the seller isn't guaranteeing a CGC grade range, I believe it's unfair to hold a seller of raw books accountable for a CGC grade when CGC themselves are inconsistent. If the seller missed something (like the clipped coupon) then IMO it should be all on him.

I don't think anybody said that certain sellers shouldn't follow the rules. I think there was a discussion on what the minimum rules should be and I pointed out that I don't know if making an example of someone like Donut was the way to start the discussion. But I also stated that I'm happy to go along with whatever the majority decides. We can have a discussion without 'picking sides'.

That is actually somehow true… I almost never go over to the mixed section. Snob

That is actually somehow true… I almost never go over to the mixed section.

I would mix them together. You will get a better output. Ive tried the other way and I think mixing works best. I would say the exact opposite. I know that some people never even go into the Mixed Age forum. Putting each comic into the appropriate target audience makes sure that those specifically looking for those books see them. That's just my Not what I meant sorry. I meant have a Copper/Modern thread and just mix in the others. You mean list a BA book in the copper/modern section? If a book is close to a crossover year I'd have no problem with that. Sometimes people pass off Copper for Bronze or visa versa.

I would mix them together. You will get a better output. Ive tried the other way and I think mixing works best. I would say the exact opposite. I know that some people never even go into the Mixed Age forum. Putting each comic into the appropriate target audience makes sure that those specifically looking for those books see them. That's just my

If you don't have enough information then ask or move on. Why would I force sellers with a proven track record to accommodate a nervous buyer? Because the rules as they exist should apply to everyone, across the board. This isn't about Donut, or me, or you, or Roy, or someone who signed up today and started selling. This is about a set of rules/guidelines that everyone is expected to adhere to if they want to sell here. Just because you have a proven track record doesn't mean you can operate any way you like. I agree that there should be a minimum standard, just like for any interpersonal interaction. It's where that standard should be that most people disagree on.

Great point. The VCC is an entirely different animal than an open sales thread.

The glare us usually dependent on the depth of the slab. Even the small, regular size comic outer holder can still be used with a variety of inner holders changing the angle of the light. Sometimes flipping the book upside down in the scanner helps, sometimes changing the background helps and sometimes a slight amount of pressure helps. Sometimes nothing helps.

Yeah, this is the side I lean to. More rules just means more arguing. If a guy's books don't sell then they will eventually get the point. I mean we've had sellers ask questions here and improve their sales threads. Again, I'm all for what everyone agrees on but the above is the way I'm leaning.

As I said, I realize there needs to be rules for everyone. My personal opinions on various angles of this conversation? Asking everyone to commit to front AND rear cover scans for every book they list is unreasonable as high volume sellers won't do it and low volume sellers will then use the high volume sellers as an excuse not to. As an aside, I now I'm recognized as a good grader now but when I joined here 11 years ago I wasn't a very good grader even though I've been collecting for decades. To be honest, almost nobody knew how to 'CGC grade' when CGC opened up. Grading has changed and it seems to continue to if we're going to be honest. Asking everyone to provide a grade, even if it's just a guess is reasonable but it does open the door to arguing over grade for those who don't have a clue. And lets face it, there is a lot of arguing over grade. It's one of the main reasons I decide to go with almost exclusively slabbed books - especially because CGC can be inconsistent even if a seller isn't. Posting a return policy is definitely a benefit and a very nice way of giving people an idea of whether they want to deal with the person or not - especially if grading ability is suspect or there are other areas that make a buyer feel uncomfortable. Maybe the policy of 'either post large scans of the front and rear or supply a grade' is a possible solution but that would need to be discussed. I'm just not a fan of too many rules. Ultimately, it's really falls to being a choice for the buyer - if you don't like the way the seller is selling his books then just walk away.

I've had guys call me looking for a particular copy of a book and I'd have it slabbed but not raw. So I'd offer the book and they'd quickly reply that they don't buy slabbed books. I then reply that I'm happy to remove the book from the slab for them and then they stop and decline, saying they'll think about it. For whatever reason, in many raw collector's minds the slab is an obstacle they just can't get past. And yet they're happy to pay a strong OSPG price for a raw book. It's illogical. It's the weirdest thing.

I actually have no idea who Bob is talking about but if it's a reputable seller like FD who has always been a contributing part of this community since the dawn of time, they get a lot more leeway with me than an unknown seller who is a roll of the dice. I realize the rules need to be fair for everyone but I personally wouldn't be making an example out of someone like FD.

Apologies, corrected it!

With many particular sellers who are not immersed in GPA / CGC / CGC Chat forum. It's not about the seller, it's about the types of buyers. Sure, but the raw collector market is much larger than the CGC graded flipper market. And if a slabbed book is going cheap on Clink they wouldn't know it because they ignore slabbed comic sales. I can't imagine the two markets as you refer to them are mutually exclusive. They are not entirely exclusive from each other. There will always be some crossover between them as nothing is an island, obviously, but there are many people in both markets that don't cross over at all. Some don't want the risk so they stick to slabs. I would say though, that the raw market is much larger than the slabbed market, and especially in certain parts of the country (I'm speaking US now) those buyers are almost entirely in the dark about the CGC market. They just plain avoid it. I see it often with estate auctions. A batch of comics shows up and local guys bid the roof off the books, paying more than the book would go for if it was CGC graded.

Roy, your comment mentions providing a description. I agree that a robust description with pic can be adequate. However, the sales thread that prompted my queries had no Return Policy, no grade, and no descriptions, only a front cover scan. Is that providing the buyer with enough information ? Absolutely not enough, I agree. Interesting how I mentioned this early in the VCC discussion thread but was referred to as a joker who is always negative about sellers here. I guess expecting a higher standard for sellers trying to move 3 digit books here is asking too much. There's a big difference between someone having no description, no return policy, no grade and only a front cover scan - which almost anyone will agree is a waste of people's time unless they are a well known seller with tight grading - and someone who isn't a perfect grader. The latter former shouldn't be selling. The former latter is the majority of the comic book world.

Roy, your comment mentions providing a description. I agree that a robust description with pic can be adequate. However, the sales thread that prompted my queries had no Return Policy, no grade, and no descriptions, only a front cover scan. Is that providing the buyer with enough information ? Absolutely not enough, I agree.

Some Joe Collectors never learn how to grade. They just want to sell a few books to be able to afford others. Not everyone can learn every trade.

There is some benefit to not posting a grade and it has nothing to do with integrity or a lack of it - some people just love to argue grade for the sake of arguing and not posting one and simply providing a description and pics provides the buyer with enough information to form their own opinion without having to answer for someone else's grading standards. Obviously, in a perfect world grades would be spot on, buyers would be honest (along with sellers) and everybody should be on the same page - but not everyone feels comfortable assigning a grade to a book.

With many particular sellers who are not immersed in GPA / CGC / CGC Chat forum. It's not about the seller, it's about the types of buyers. Sure, but the raw collector market is much larger than the CGC graded flipper market. And if a slabbed book is going cheap on Clink they wouldn't know it because they ignore slabbed comic sales.

There are a lot of nice slabbed copies of some of these books in current auctions that may go for less than people are paying for these raw copies...feeding frenzy...speculation... Perhaps, although the majority of the books are in the lower grades. Right, that's my point, people are bidding up lower grade books in a frenzy when slabs with confirmed grades are at least currently auctioning for less. Look at the Menace 11 on Clink.... Anyway, the auctions are early so it may not pan out that way, but it is interesting. I checked both auctions and you're right. Remarkable. That's because the guys buying raw books are often collectors who don't care for GPA or slabbed books. They're just collectors who want a copy of a book. The guys buying slabbed books are part speculator / part collector. This just reinforces my belief that there are multiple types of markets out there. It also crushes the idea that just because it's slabbed it sells for more.

But the point of any business is not only to prevent others from making money but it's for you to make money yourself. Fox currently is not succeeding in making money with the FF franchise.

Do scuba diving fins count? Now you guys are asking too much!!!!!!!

That's silly. +1 If the posts are now complying, they are now complying. Edit and removal by moderation crossed in mid stream. If you put up a post that doesn't comply with the intent of editing it later, that's the risk you take. Better and cleaner to do it right to begin with. It's aggressive and surgical. Most people comply as soon as they are reminded of an infraction by a boardie. Pulling threads with abandon is just going to create a bad taste in people's mouths.