HighStakesComics

Does the Haney interview predate the OPG change in 1980?

You sure do care a lot about the topic. I was thinking the same thing about you and Duck

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4956279#Post4956279

It also appears an editor needs to approve any changes by the indexer. Im not an indexer or an editor, but it would appear that at least two parties would need to be in agreement in order to facilitate a change. Here's the fine print:

I find the Teen Titans Archives vol. 1 (starts with BB 54) and Teen Titans: A Celebration of 50 Years (keys off of BB 54) much more interesting. Why? We already know that the conventional wisdom says BB 54 is their first appearance. Lazyboy's citation is, actually, more interesting, because it's an example of a departure from the norm. Now, that said, comics.org is the single most authoritative source for comics info. And they don't consider BB 54 the first appearance of the Teen Titans. If I were interested in the Teen Titans, I'd definitely find that interesting. You have got to be kidding! Comics.org is a wiki. And it sure looks to me like someone out there is manipulating every wiki they can find to try and create the appearance that BB 60 is the first Teen Titans. It's a sad example of market manipulation if that is what is happening. Out of curiousity, what would make you say comics.org is a wiki? Because of the way comics.org describes itself on its web page and its "documentation wiki." Most notably, because indexing is all done by volunteers. It's a classic wiki. A wiki is a website which allows collaborative modification of its content and structure directly from the web browser. We can all modify comics.org. In I should probably fix the bad entries. So you are saying comics.org can be edited unconditionally without any checks and balances?

I find the Teen Titans Archives vol. 1 (starts with BB 54) and Teen Titans: A Celebration of 50 Years (keys off of BB 54) much more interesting. Why? We already know that the conventional wisdom says BB 54 is their first appearance. Lazyboy's citation is, actually, more interesting, because it's an example of a departure from the norm. Now, that said, comics.org is the single most authoritative source for comics info. And they don't consider BB 54 the first appearance of the Teen Titans. If I were interested in the Teen Titans, I'd definitely find that interesting. You have got to be kidding! Comics.org is a wiki. And it sure looks to me like someone out there is manipulating every wiki they can find to try and create the appearance that BB 60 is the first Teen Titans. It's a sad example of market manipulation if that is what is happening. Out of curiousity, what would make you say comics.org is a wiki?

Pretty sure Jesus didn't talk that way about women. Maybe. But he totally hoarded BB54s, so I guess we know where he stands. Since the Gospel of Matthew kicks off the New Testament, I can see Jesus being more of a BB 60 guy, considering it precedes many of the older gospels in the bible that were written before it. Yes, this thread has been going on for so long that this was actually touched upon once before, roughly 30 or so pages ago Probably only Mark was written before Matthew, with Luke being written about the same time, and John significantly later. Some theologians argue, though, that in Mark the Apostles are just 12 guys. Their first appearance as a team is in Matthew. As well they should. Why? Because Matthew casts away any doubt.

Shouldn't you be out on the town trying to pull some wool tonight, Jimbo?

Pretty sure Jesus didn't talk that way about women. Maybe. But he totally hoarded BB54s, so I guess we know where he stands. Since the Gospel of Matthew kicks off the New Testament, I can see Jesus being more of a BB 60 guy, considering it precedes many of the older gospels in the bible that were written before it. Yes, this thread has been going on for so long that this was actually touched upon once before, roughly 30 or so pages ago

Anyone that has followed your posts knows you have a heart of gold, Sir

Excuse me, friend of Jesus? Could you speak about women in some way that doesn't reduce them to a sexualized body part? We're trying to make this hobby an inclusive one, so let's act as if people of all kinds may be checking this forum out. Pretty sure Jesus didn't talk that way about women. Well, as long as you are apologizing, I guess it's ok. But please try to avoid this behavior in the future. Not all posters here are men, my friends. Lotsa of ladies out there ❤️ the 60 ?

You missed out on a #54 9.6 some time ago. I actually don't add any sort of a premium. I try to price all my books based on what the market in total thinks (ie. GPA, OSPG, etc). I just like the debate. Personally, I can't stand DC. But who knew back then that these books were so .... interesting? That they are and Duck has fought valiantly, but in the end, we are talking about the subjective versus the absolute. Brave and the Bold 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. I have no doubt. Words can be twisted. History can be denied. Truths can be stretched. At the end of the day this debate is about an appearance in a comic book. This thread is almost 80 pages and not once has anyone posted a panel that comes anywhere close to identifying the Teen Titans in issue 54. There is something to be said in that.

Of course neither one of you guys are even acknowledging the sentence about "introducing them to the world as the Teen Titans". If that doesn't quantify a 1st appearance I'm not sure what does? It doesn't say "the team that formed in 54 became the Teen Titans" even though I'm sure you would like it to. To put it another way, I'll refer to the 2015 Overstreet Price Guide.....

We had a poll 40 or so pages ago. It was roughly a 60/40 split in favor of BB 60. If someone would like to start up another Id be curious to see if the results would differ.

DC has tried hard to combat the misinformation with repeated statements that the TT started with BB 54, so maybe that will solve the problem. In the meantime, watch out for what you read on the wikis, they are completely being manipulated. Fortunately, it does not appear that dealers are being taken in by the misinfo, and most everyone advertises BB 54 as a TT issue. Got a source for the claim that DC "has tried hard" to do anything? Let alone what you claim? Rather than just go along with the current prevailing idea? Do you really think Dan DiDio is losing sleep over which comic fans think is the first appearance of Teen Titans? They say it's BB54 (now!) because that's what Overstreet, et al, say. Of course, it's not what comics.org says, but what do they know. The big problem is that for many years now, most people who have worked in the industry were fans first and were exposed to all of the same things as other fans. A few of them really care about the history and try to correct faulty perceptions, but most can't be bothered. Comics.org is basically wiki level information. Bob Haney was a creator of the TT, wrote BB54 and BB60, and when shown a copy of BB54 in a long line of "team-up" issues his immediate unprompted reaction is "first Teen Titans." And that's consistent with other interviews by him and the stories about how the TT came to be created. DC has been saying BB54 was the first Teen Titans since it was first reprinted in the early 70' Maybe I'm a little confused? Where does DC call BB 54 the 1st Teen Titans in the early 70''s again? Literally every panel contradicts this statement, but perhaps there was one that was overlooked? Once again, show me one single panel published by DC, prior to OPG changing its commentary in 1980 that backs up your point.

And then there is this from Teen Titans #1

And from 1978.....

I know this was all covered 40 pages ago, but heres what DC had to say about the Teen Titans in 1972:

DC has tried hard to combat the misinformation with repeated statements that the TT started with BB 54, so maybe that will solve the problem. In the meantime, watch out for what you read on the wikis, they are completely being manipulated. Fortunately, it does not appear that dealers are being taken in by the misinfo, and most everyone advertises BB 54 as a TT issue. Got a source for the claim that DC "has tried hard" to do anything? Let alone what you claim? Rather than just go along with the current prevailing idea? Do you really think Dan DiDio is losing sleep over which comic fans think is the first appearance of Teen Titans? They say it's BB54 (now!) because that's what Overstreet, et al, say. Of course, it's not what comics.org says, but what do they know. The big problem is that for many years now, most people who have worked in the industry were fans first and were exposed to all of the same things as other fans. A few of them really care about the history and try to correct faulty perceptions, but most can't be bothered. Comics.org is basically wiki level information. Bob Haney was a creator of the TT, wrote BB54 and BB60, and when shown a copy of BB54 in a long line of "team-up" issues his immediate unprompted reaction is "first Teen Titans." And that's consistent with other interviews by him and the stories about how the TT came to be created. DC has been saying BB54 was the first Teen Titans since it was first reprinted in the early 70s, restated that position in the Archives, and most recently made it clear again in the 50 year celebration of the TT. You guys can continue to assert that the vast majority of fans, dealers, and scholars have it wrong, but you can't claim it is based on ignorance or a lack of historical knowledge. Reading BB 54 and BB 60 makes it obvious that the first appearance of the team that was later named the Teen Titans was BB54. But, no one will dispute the first time the name was used was BB60. BS. Show me where DC calls BB54 the 1st Teen Titans in the early 70's and I will make this thread go poof. You can't and you know it. Every piece of evidence posted published by DC prior to OPG volume 10 in 1980 would prove contrary to your statement. Man up and post a panel.

That's the way it's supposed to work, but if you have additional insight I'm willing to listen. I'd hope none of us are so closed minded that we couldn't be persuaded by an adequate argument.

So, you're agreeing that the Teen Titans 1st appeared in #54 then? How? Robin clearly says he set up the Teen Titans. This did not occur anywhere in BB 54, so...

So, you're agreeing that the Teen Titans 1st appeared in #54 then? Perhaps this is all a big misunderstanding. Please explain how this panel, which appears in issue #60, clearly identifies issue #54 as the first appearance?

Nah. All this is going to accomplish is to get people patroling wiki's and correcting the record because they are annoyed at the market manipulation. I've already sent a note off to OPG. Spreading misinformation, MisStakesComics, tends to annoy people, especially when you're selling BB54 without disclaiming that it is a TT book. Annoyed people become active. That's why this thread isn't dying. You're just rallying an opposition to your cause. Just like everything else I've posted here I can back this up by posting panels. I will post the article I mentioned later. Speaking of panels, I'm still waiting for yours

I'm not sure when that would be. After all, BB60 specifically cites to BB54 when it says the formation of the TT pre-dated BB60: So it was established by DC the first time that the name Teen Titans was used that the group originated in BB54. Moreover, the first time the story from BB54 was reprinted, in 1972, in DC 100 Page Super Spectacular DC-21, it was labeled on the cover as being a "Teen Titans" story. Hard to fault Overstreet for calling BB54 the first Teen Titans appearance when that's exactly what DC was doing back when the Guide was first written. Of course, subsequent DC publications, such as the Archives and 50th Anniversay HC, have also confirmed BB54 was the first appearance and origin of the TT. Bob got it right. That's why every dealer, including you, list BB54 as a TT book. I think the fact that BB 54 is cited in 60 makes it a "Teen Titans Story". So I guess then the question becomes can it be a Teen Titans story without being a first appearance? My answer to that would be absolutely! To quote Robin himself the Titans were a team set up "After Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenaged of Hatton Corners." This puts the formation of the team in between 54 and 60. So perhaps I am being generous calling BB 54 an origin story, but I have never listed and sold a BB 54 as a first appearance, nor will I. I don't blame you for bringing it up though. Your case for the 54 is in dire need of a red herring.

There is also an article near the back of the 2015 OPG guide which states BB 60 is the first appearance. It's very possible this is all about to come full circle.