HighStakesComics

All discussions go through circular reasoning and stuff gets repeated. I just can't understand why it's so difficult to grasp/admit that they first appeared in #54. Circular arguments without actually using the knowledge which has been laid out is a waste of time. And yet I see argument after argument claiming BB 60 is the first TT appearance even though DC and the vast majority in the comic collecting community say that is not true. Ignoring all the reasoned argument in favor of BB54. And what's worse is that someone is posting this nonsense to Wikipedias in order to try and pump up the price of the book. It's a low point. Or perhaps BB 60 was at one time considered the first appearance, which is consistent with the panels posted throughout the thread, until Bob Overstreet shifted the market by erroneously mistaking the first appearance was ambiguously worded into the last sentence of the last panel of BB 54 in Volume 10 of his price guide published in the year of our lord 1980?

So what in your opinion would have made BB54 the definitive first appearance of the Teen Titans? Really this is about choices. And when the choice is about wherein lies the first appearance..... It may be best to start with the front cover. Ask yourself. Which of these two books has more in common with the first appearances of other classic teams throughout comic book literature?

Been reading this thread with interest. Being I do in fact have a copy of the first ed of Overstreet. Here are the relevant listings: 54--Kid Flash, Robin & Aqualad 60--Teen Titans The prices for the two books are the same. Make of that what you will. Any chance we could find out which edition they made the change please?

Also, if anyone has a copy of the 1st edition of the Overstreet Price Guide and wouldn't mind sharing how BB 54 is referred to at the time of its publication I would very much appreciate it. Thank you.

Read the thread, kid.

The problem I have is there is a bit of a difference between the team up that ends in 54, and the team we are introduced to in 60. How can we say the Teen Titans existed prior to Wonder Girl? Even if you could make the argument that a team formed permanently in 54, I don't see how you could make the argument that they are the same team we see at the beginning of 60?

For argument's sake here's the last panel of BB 54 and the first of BB 60:

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7? The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand...... So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster? Well, BEING a team--acting like one, forming one, constituting one--is certainly part of it! Individuals appearing in the same story don't by themselves constitute a "team." And that's the core of our disagreement. You guys seem to require an intent by DC to create a team that will have further adventures. For me, their first appearance is simply the first adventure that they shared. So you admit the story itself makes no reference to a team or to the Teen Titans? It's the first appearance simply because 3/4 original Teen Titans members appear in a team up together?

Isn't the first appearance of the Young Allies in Young Allies #1? Is this truly comparable to the team up in Brave and the Bold #54? If the cover or story of BB 54 mentioned anything about "Teen Titans" I don't think we would be having this discussion. In your example, the front cover would appear to be a dead giveaway.

I think what's at issue here is when a team was established in the first place. We have a book, Brave and the Bold 54, which features a group of 3 pre-existing heroes in a title that was featuring team-ups at the time of it's release. It sounds like what you gentlemen are arguing is that a team-up is the equivalent of forming a team.

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7? The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand...... So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster? In this case? Both. So if Wonder Girl had appeared in BB54, it would have been the Titans first appearance? Listen to yourself Why would roster be important "in this case", as you say. Why would it be important with the Titans, but not important with the JSA? In this case, the roster and team name are established in the same issue, just like the JSA's roster is established and named in ASC #3. If you can post a panel that either establishes the Titans roster in a prior issue to 60, and refers to them in the sense of a traditional superhero team please do.

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7? The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand...... So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster? In this case? Both. So if Wonder Girl had appeared in BB54, it would have been the Titans first appearance? Listen to yourself

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7? The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand...... So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster? In this case? Both.

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7? The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

I think we've already gone down this road with Sub-Mariner #34 and The Defenders.

Nope. It's pretty clear here early on that something occurred after 54, which led to the teams formation in 60. Once again, this is referenced in the earliest panels addressing the topic, which I am happy to post and share. Seems pretty consistent and on point to me.

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success. What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters. Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well Not apples and oranges. You're claiming that you can't call BB54 the first Titans appearance simply because they don't call themselves the Titans in that issue. I'm saying you might as well claim that Superman #1 isn't #1 because it doesn't say #1 and wasn't intended to be a continuing series. DC looked at the sucess of BB54 and decided to give the team a name and another issue, just as they looked at the success of the first issue of Superman and decided to publish another. Apples and apples. At this point aren't we just arguing that 54 is a prototype then? When it's this close I think we have to go with the book that establishes clarity and casts away the doubt. You cannot argue that prior to 60 the Teen Titans existed. Also, I think it's safe to say that after Action Comics #1 anyone who read it had a good idea who Superman was. Apples to oranges. In fact, since the first 13 page story within Action #1 is titled "Superman", Id say you are even making a case for 60 being the first appearance since the example you used clearly identifies the hero chronicled within. ?

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success. What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters. Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60. Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

Still waiting on that panel.

Really nice copies of both books, brother!

Hmmm. Interestingly, "blazincomics" on ebay calls a coverless copy of BB 54 "origin of Teen Titans," consistent with it being the first appearance of the TT in line with DC and CGC's position, but chooses not to devalue the comic by claiming it is not a TT comic or by calling it a prototype. 54 is the origin and 60 is the 1st appearance, just as I have called it all along. Kinda like FF 66 & 67 except with teams. You only see the cocoon in BB 54, you don't witness the team as they have been known for 50 years with their original lineup until Brave and the Bold 60. If I didn't have a leg to stand on there is a good chance more than half of the scholarly readers here in this thread wouldn't agree with me, Duck. Do I own multiples of 60? Absolutely. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. If you disagree you can instantly discredit me by posting the panel in Brave and the Bold 54 which introduces the world to the Teen Titans. The only problem is there isn't one. It's a myth. 54 is a team up and origin. It lays the foundation for what appears for the first time 6 issues later. It's only a matter of time until the gospel has spread and the collecting community views this as it truly is. In the meantime, I'd suggest trying on a pair of big boy pants and learning how not to dish out what you apparently cannot take.

Nice books. A pleasure doing business. Thank you.

Bought more books and Jerry didn't disapoint. Terrific all around seller.