joe_collector

yes, because it was $20-$25 and X-Men 94 and GS 1 were $75-$100 or more, but $20-$25 was a lot relatively speaking 30+ years ago and certainly among the highs among 1970s first appearances.

It was high for any mid-60's-on first appearance outside of a major SA key, such as FF 48 or ASM 50, neither of which were very expensive in the early to mid 80's. GS X-Men 1 and X-Men 94 were *not* hot due to first appearances, but because the New X-Men were red-hot and highly collectible, and those were the earliest issues. And the fact that it was Giant-Size X-Men NUMBER ONE definitely helped, no doubt about it.

First appearances in mid-run books just weren't a big deal back then, and at any show from 1981-87, you would get more requests for New X-Men (especially Byrne), Miller Daredevil, Simonson Thor, and a variety of #1 issues of the era than anything like Hulk 181, ASM 50 or FF 48.

It was an important book, but it just sat at $20-$30 dollars for almost a decade, and wasn't "hot" in that respect. The same level as FF 48, ASM 50, etc. - important, but not burning up the OS reports or price lists. That is, until 86-89, when the sportscard dealers enveloped the hobby and promoted a "rookie card" mindset by buying up all the major first appearances, and driving prices sky high.

Go back and read some OS market reports from 1980-87 and see what was really selling at "red hot" levels during that time period, and I doubt that Hulk 181 will be taking up a significant portion of those sections.

And as for supply, Hulk 181 was a notable part of many warehouse finds, including the monstrous Mile High 2 find, in which Chuck stated in his ads that he had Hulk 181's in "any quantity".

I bought a mid grade Hulk 181 for $50 in the early 90's. I remember the price because I remember being yelled screamed at for it as if I bought a handful of magic beans.

I remember being at a show in 1987 and there was a dealer with literally a table-full (3 big stacks) of Hulk 181 screaming "Hulk 181, only thirty bucks!" at the top of his lungs and there were virtually no takers.

I was zoning in on Byrne X-Men at the time, but as I passed by,I still remember a couple of guys asking him if "he had any early-Simonson Thors" while totally disregarding the stacks of Hulk 181's from an obvious warehouse find.

And lest we forget, Thor 337 was the most valuable Thor issue from the entire run in OS during the mid-late 80's, and a very desirable book at the time. It still proves the point that what is hot today is not what was hot back then, no matter what your 20-20 hindsight would like you to believe.

I don't know-- I recall Hulk 181 being pretty popular immediately. I can see people hoarding that book even back then.

Nope, and it's because the book was a consistent $25-$30 book for years, and people didn't see much upside, otherwise I would buy a collection and find 25-50 copies of Hulk 181 rather than stacks of Eternals 1, Ka-Zar 1, Howard the Duck 1, PPSSM 1, Micronauts 1, Ms Marvel 1, Star Wars 1, etc.

I realize it's difficult to understand today, but prior to the sportscard dealer invasion, virtually *all* of the speculator hoarding was based on #1 issues, with a bit on the side for "hot artists".

[Long time Maryland dealer Gene Carpenter has told me on more than 1 occasion that FF 48's were on his .50 table in the early '70's. He, along other dealers, had dozens and he said while it was a steady seller, no one bought multiple copies.

 

That's because first appearances weren't that popular back then, and it was the Number One Issues that everyone was after. It wasn't until the mid-80's, when the sportscard dealers invaded comics with their "rookie card" mentality, that first appearances really skyrocketed.

 

That was possibility true what you said about the "rookie card" mentality back in the mid-80s. I remembered many sportscard dealers tried to enter the comic book collecting community, and added their idea in there. During my collecting days, I was only after #1 issues and full runs, not the 1st appearances.

Exactly, and people forget that that pre-sportscard dealer hobby was centered on #1 issues, full runs, important artists, key stories, *and* first appearances, but it wasn't until the mid-80's that the "rookie card" phenomenon took over. Most key first appearances were in the $10-$30 range throughout the 80's, then picked up in 85-86 when some sportscard dealers took notice, then exploded in 1987-89, when the sportscard dealers descended en masse.

And I'm not just making this up, as it was widely reported in Overstreet and other industry publications.

P.S. That's what makes me laugh at newbies who say "I wish I was collecting in the 70's and 80's, as I would have 100 Hulk 181's" - yeah right, all these dorks would be holding onto boxes of Ka-Zar #1, Eternals #1, Micronauts #1, and Man of Steel #1.

[Long time Maryland dealer Gene Carpenter has told me on more than 1 occasion that FF 48's were on his .50 table in the early '70's. He, along other dealers, had dozens and he said while it was a steady seller, no one bought multiple copies.

That's because first appearances weren't that popular back then, and it was the Number One Issues that everyone was after. It wasn't until the mid-80's, when the sportscard dealers invaded comics with their "rookie card" mentality, that first appearances really skyrocketed.

BTW. it's commonly stated that Star Wars #1 comic came out "several months" before the movie, but I don't remember it that way, and at least for me, it was very close. I think the Star Wars #1 hit the shelves slightly before the movie, but I don't believe it was "several months" as I remember waiting for issues 2-4 to come out, and I had already seen the movie.

 

Star Wars #1 has a cover date of July 1977, which if you back-dated it the usual 2 months, would make the shelf date May 1977, the same time as the Star Wars movie release. That's about how I remember it.

 

Release date for Star Wars 1 was Friday, April 15, 1977. Two and a half weeks.

That sounds about right to me.

BTW. it's commonly stated that Star Wars #1 comic came out "several months" before the movie, but I don't remember it that way, and at least for me, it was very close. I think the Star Wars #1 hit the shelves slightly before the movie, but I don't believe it was "several months" as I remember waiting for issues 2-4 to come out, and I had already seen the movie.

Star Wars #1 has a cover date of July 1977, which if you back-dated it the usual 2 months, would make the shelf date May 1977, the same time as the Star Wars movie release. That's about how I remember it.

[i wasn't around back then and I have no beef I this argument but it seems odd to me that it would have been heavily speculated on since the book came out several months before the movie and the movie was not expected to be a huge hit.

Although initially Star Wars was not considered to be a major release, but once the previews and pre-release response came in, they knew it was a "crowd pleaser" but had no idea it would break every box office record imaginable.

Star Wars was much like a previous Lucas film, American Graffiti, whereby the studio didn't feel it was a major release (they were even thinking of shelving it and selling it back to FFC), but once the preview audiences saw it, the film exploded and the studio heads started singing a different tune. Then it was released theatrically and made bank.

I knew about Star Wars well before its release, Marvel knew about Star Wars (Stan saw the movie and highly praised/promoted it on BB), and it was hyped before the comic book came out. Although I only bought 1 copy of SW 1-4, some of my friends bought a pile, just like PPSSM 1, MM 1, Nova 1, etc. This book is out there in mass quantities - just look at how many 35-cent variants of SW #1 are available compared to any other issue, and that should tell you something about the print run.

Concrete/DHP1 prices are soaring!

 

Hahaha! Years ago I used to pick up early DHP and Concrete back issues from the 50-cent bin, knowing they would be worth something someday and it looks like my ship just rolled in.

 

 

Now I just Mindwalk and Trekker to take off.

 

They're still worth diddly until you sell them.

I'm rich in my mind baby, rich in my mind!!

Concrete/DHP1 prices are soaring!

Hahaha! Years ago I used to pick up early DHP and Concrete back issues from the 50-cent bin, knowing they would be worth something someday and it looks like my ship just rolled in.

Now I just Mindwalk and Trekker to take off.

Have you ever found anything in the pocket of a jacket or pair of pants at a yard sale/thrift store?

No, but I did find a big stack of old hockey cards stuffed in a hand-me-down jacket I got as a kid. One of my mother's friends or one of my relatives gave it to her.

Funny thing is, I never wore the jacket (it sucked) and it wasn't until years later I was cleaning out my closet, decided to toss it, and then discovered it had 3-4 pockets just crammed with hockey cards.No idea why I didn't notice them before, but I think I hid that ugly thing pretty quick.

They were a mix of 69-70, 70-71 and 71-72 cards, and I got Bobby Orr, Tony and Phil Espo, Rod Gilbert, Bobby Clark (2nd), Gordie Howe, some checklists, and even a Darryl Sittler RC (I know that for sure as he's a big Leaf fan) along with a pile of semi-stars and commons. No Guy LaFleur, Ken Dryden or Marcel Dionne RCs, unfortunately.

Gave them all to my Dad, who collects cards and he still has them.

Here's what they look like:

I want to see!

Are you aware of the mga enterprises Marvel Authentic?Steel cars,with a mini comic included.There were four in the series AF15 ,ToS 39,Hulk 181 and GSXM 1.....I found a bunch in a Walmart discontinued bin,opened an extra....the comic only has four or five pages and then you go to a site to read the rest.that sucked.2007 i believe.

Yep, I bought Wolverine and an X-Men Authentics when they were on clearance, and I think I have them somewhere. Didn't like the Iron Man car at all and I think the ASM was sold out. I thought there were more than 4, but that's probably because there *seemed* like there should be more.

Who knows, movie-hyped prices are so out of whack these days it makes my head spin.

Nice, and it's only got limited ink stains on the title logo - all my copes have far more and that's probably the best I've seen.

Everytime I see that Spider Roach comic it puts a big smile on my face. I still don't think I would want to buy it, but..... if you're going to own a bad Stan signature, this is the one to own.

That's the thing- sure it would be fun to own a freakshow book like this, but you'd have to be insane to pay market value for it.

This comic has reached celebrity status on the boards here. It is talked about constantly.

Yeah, sure, just like the Elephant Man used to be.

But I will qualify that in that I agree.....NO HIGH GRADE KEYS! I cringe when I see one of those "defaced". This 181 is low grade enough that I think the sketch & sig enhances it for me.

 

As for the overall debate, count me on the side of believing the SS books will be MORE appreciated down the line, particularly after all these artists have passed on.

So which statement do you agree with?

That people in the future will shake their heads at HIGH-GRADE vintage comics being scrawled on, or that they be MORE appreciated. You can't have it both ways.

No one is saying there will be future-hand-wringing over a scrawled-on CGC 4.0 book, but I think there will be over a CGC 9.6 Key.

How does everyone feel about this one:

I'll cede to awe4one on that, as he was the first guy I noticed who actively collected them and I was no better than second onto that CGC ship. I always liked the books, but never really segregated them like he did.

His only fault is the sucky "Picture Book" moniker he had for them, so I had to set him straight on the proper English terminology. "They look like a frame, not a book"

I also remember in the early days of the CGC Forums, I think awe4one and I were talking about how much we liked collecting these books, and he started calling them "Picture Book Covers" and I didn't like that descriptor, and some others joined in and we settled on "Picture Frame" covers.

I think "Picture Book" was the old term some people used, but does anyone remember "Picture Frame" being used prior to 2000?

I haven't seen the term "Picture Frame" at a show, but I have seen boxes filled with HG copies labeled as "1971-72 Marvels", and with none of the outliers that aren't PF.

Why not just have stan sign the slab with some sort of ink that does not come off slab material?

Because then you couldn't get it authenticated or sell it as a Stan Lee sig. This way, you satisfy both the comic purists and the sig specualtors by having it both ways. I also think it opens up the market, as if this method was used to protect the comic, I would be interested in some sig series books.

But CGC will never change it to the proper method, as then the initial run of "scrawled on books" will have a serious stigma attached to them. Then again, demand for CGC sig grading would increase with people wanting both high-grade books and a verified sig-on-plastic/Mylar, so you never know.

Is there a thread of the top 10 worst Stan signatures?

Nope, but this has to be at the top of the list.