Lazyboy

What is "obvious" about the idea that most copies of a popular comic book from 1989 (that has never been worthless) have been destroyed?

So, in a quote from none other than Neil Gaiman himself, who was there when they were given out, the books were immediately recognized as variants and given out during his appearances, even further reinforcing the supposition that these variant copies are mostly safely in the hands of collectors who are keeping them. I wonder if there are more than 100 signed copies out there in collections... GLOD garbage. I was actually considering adding "(worthless junk, unapproved by CGC)" to my post, but decided against it.

So, in a quote from none other than Neil Gaiman himself, who was there when they were given out, the books were immediately recognized as variants and given out during his appearances, even further reinforcing the supposition that these variant copies are mostly safely in the hands of collectors who are keeping them. I wonder if there are more than 100 signed copies out there in collections...

Because there is absolutely no reason to suspect a high attrition rate for a comic that is less than 30 years old that was distributed to comic collectors. Especially one with an older audience.

I mean no offense but, it appears that this is a part of the problem, I've noticed that your arguments often contain logical fallacies. To say this is irrelevant is wrong. Each of these dealers is well respected and both have a reputation for moving books rather than "showing" books. Both dealers have a solid appreciation of the market and would price a book according to their appreciation of the market. You may not place much value in their assessment. However, their expert opinions are relevant and saying otherwise is wrong. It is a logical fallacy, it's a form of the "moving the goalposts" or "shifting the bar" fallacy. The fact that two reputable dealers agree does add some support for the assertion that the Cerebus is worth more. You may not give it much weight it but it is relevant. Honestly these buzz words that you toss around don't really have much meaning, and further, they are not representative of anything I have actually said. It's great that you respect dealer opinions. I do as well. However I also have enough knowledge and insight to form my own opinions. And no I do not see any actual evidence beyond "dealer opinion", that a cerebus 1 9.2 has a higher FMV than a hulk 181 9.2. But if you want to dredge that non-point up again I would respectfully ask that you take it back over the the bronze section. With regards to the sandman 8 book in question, it's nice to see some people at least allowing for the possibility that there "may" be as few as 100 surviving copies. There were indeed 600 copies "printed" but they were not all distributed. And it was a very long time before they were given any kind of significant value over the regular issue. You can see the progression on the GPA chart. I have never once said "there are only 100 copies". I have only said that I believe this to be a reasonable statement based on X, Y, and Z facts. I have no doubt there are raw copies lingering around here and there in collections. But again, I certainly would not say there are hundreds upon hundreds. The book is just too valuable, and too many people know the book is too valuable for there not to be more copies on the census and available at any given time for sale on the open market for this to be true IMO. "IMO" being the operative part of that sentence. (thumbs u -J. Value is irrelevant for comics that are part of a "permanent" collection and aren't going anywhere. CGC cases do not offer special protection that is better than anything else available to collectors, but they sure take up more space.

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u -J. Right, you don't like it when others post completely unreasonable things. Only you are allowed to do that. Thanks for confirming. (thumbs u

You're absolutely right, Jaydog. I had a table at a local show last week, but none of my sales are documented or verified online. I guess they didn't happen and the cash in my wallet doesn't actually exist. That sucks I have some things I'd like to spend the money on. By the way, since I can't account for all the millions of copies of X-Men (v.2) #1 and there are less than 2000 on the census, I have to assume that only 25000 copies still exist. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I have comics in my collection that do not come up regularly for sale, copies that nobody else knows still exist. I'm very sure that many Sandman/DC/variant/rarity fans have acquired copies of the Sandman 8 Editorial variant over the last twenty-five years and kept them, which removes them from the market but not from existence. I would bet everything I own that the number of extant copies is (much) closer to 600 than 100. Of course, even if I could find some sucker to take that bet, I'd never get to cash out simply due to the difficulty of tracking down enough copies to win

You cannot claim there are no copies "on the market" unless you have checked every dealer website, comic and/or business website (ie. CPG, Amazon, Comiclink, etc.) that allows people to put items up for sale, brick and mortar store, convention (yes, it's currently Thursday afternoon - you probably get a pass on this one at the moment), etc. eBay is not the market, GPA does not represent all sales (even just of CGC graded books), and the CGC census is not an accurate representation of extant copies, either directly or proportionately. Your "opinions" are ridiculous and not based on any kind of reality.

Not a problem with me. (but I think the personal diatribe is uncalled for.) Btw, the book's a 9.8 all day long. You must live in Alaska Alaskan 9.8, I might at that to listings. Being from Alaska....not getting it....other than we can almost guarantee white pages from OO Alaskan books It was a (bad) joke about the length of days.

Post number.

Says the guy who calls DC 100 Page SS 5 a key. Cerebus 1s value isn't (all) because it's the first appearance of an aardvark.

What I just read is "if you ignore supply and demand, fundamentals of a market, the book I like is more valuable." And why is it so important to you and jaydog that we acknowledge wolverine is a popular character? Probably because more vauable often equates to more attractive and popular. The musical album that is more popular usually sells more and demands higher prices. However, this mechanism is not at play here. Cerebus might have a higher price individually (in a grade or two) but the total amount of money comics collectors are willing to pay to get a H181 is far far far higher. So in that sense H181 is clearly more valuable. The market value is the price for each book sold times the number of books sold - is far far far greater for H181 than for Cerebus. So only in a very very specific (almost ridiculously narrow) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable. Therefore we obviously object to someone claiming that "Cerebus is more valuable than H181". And you're complaining that other people aren't logical?

Annual #3. Deadpool's second appearance doesn't move the needle despite NM #98 being so hot (we point copies of X-Force #2 out to kids who drool over NM #98 when we do shows, and we can't even sell them at $5). I can't think of any Copper second appearances that have broken out; maybe there are some but I can't think of any. Why would second Nightwing be a big deal over any other second appearance? X-Force #2 had a print run at, or over, a million copies. So, there's a bit of a supply factor involved. But yes, the "second appearance" has taken a nosedive in popularity, across the board. Where second, third, fourth appearances used to command respectable money (like, say, Legion of Supes, or Batman, as a classic example, or J'onn J'onzz, or much of Showcase and B&B)...now, if it's not a first appearance, everyone turns their nose up at it. Which either may herald a buying opportunity, or the end of the value of later appearances. Supply is absolutely a factor, no doubt. But the people we show X-Force #2s to at shows aren't disinterested because they already own it, they just don't seem to care about his second appearance. And these are kids who are looking at our NM #98s like they are AF #15s, and they aren't motivated to pick up a NM second appearance of the same character for $5. That tells me that if its not the first appearance they couldn't care less. One thing leads to another.. I betcha IF the upcoming X-Force movie comes out, and people decide to hoard on NM100/XF#1 and only offer copies on eBay for 100$ or over, you'd have the same kid sweating these books at your upcoming show. That's just how trends are, Supply means nothing when it comes to WHAT THE MARKET DECIDES Supply means everything. It is supply AND demand. If you're saying "the supply would be outstripped by the demand", then that's a valid point, but supply never means "nothing." Seems like he actually meant that absolute supply doesn't matter compared to marketplace availability.

Has to be movie hype of some kind. I paid a couple of bucks about a year ago for a better copy. I see most sellers on Fee Bay asking inflated prices. No one will care in another year. Maybe because it's a newsie. Low grade and from a time when the newsstand was still king? Doubtful.

Don't forget that Nightwing is just a costume/name change of a very established character as well. The second appearance of Nightwing is still Grayson's 749th appearance. Annual #3. Deadpool's second appearance doesn't move the needle despite NM #98 being so hot (we point copies of X-Force #2 out to kids who drool over NM #98 when we do shows, and we can't even sell them at $5). I can't think of any Copper second appearances that have broken out; maybe there are some but I can't think of any. Why would second Nightwing be a big deal over any other second appearance? I would be guessing DP's 2nd appearance had a much higher print run, but I understand your logic here. I am trying to think of any other books where the 2nd appearance commands any type of $$ in the modern/copper world. Currently I cant think of any. Isn't Venom's second full appearance ASM #316? That pulls in some money. It's also Venom's first cover, though, so there's that factor to consider. Then again, Archangel/Death's second (full) appearance is huge, but it's also his first cover.

Hulk 181 has the biggest single character introduction, but overall pales in comparison to Wolverine's second full appearance. Influential? Action Comics 1 is influential. Cerebus 1 is influential. Detective Comics 27 is important. Incredible Hulk 181 is important.

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break. 2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless. What is the value of Amazing Spider-Man Annual 21? Well, since he believes a single recent sale is the actual value of a comic, I would like to publicly offer Jaydogrules my 9.0 copy of ASM Annual 21 for only $50. It's a great deal! I would also like to extend the offer to anybody else who is interested if Jaydogrules is unfortunately unable to take me up on this amazing opportunity. Please? Anybody?

So would I So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you? "What you collect sucks! What I collect RULES!!!" I don't have a problem with that. Hulk 181 along with GS X-Men 1 had such a tremendous impact on the history of the American Comic Book. The next 3 decades were dominated by the Mutants. And Wolverine stood as he does now, at the top of this age. Very easy to say what you don't have SUX,, but you can't say this particular book SUX. The fact that you prefer any book to Hulk 181 is your right but you can't say Wolverine's first appearance SUX just like you can't say the Spidey's first app. SUX too. There are quotation marks for a reason. YOU are the one saying "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules!!, not I, which is the attitude you are displaying. I respect whatever someone is interested in collecting, and I give preference to those collectors who seek the truly scarce, difficult to obtain books. I have owned multiple Hulk #181s. I have never even SEEN a Scooby Doo #1 35 cent variant in person. See Oakman's sig line for further info. Hulk #181? Crowning achievement? The Bronze Age equivalent to playing T-Ball? No thanks. I've got far bigger Detective Comics #27s to fry. Don't put words in my mouth. That's not what I said. You really amuse me. And please don't apologize again. I can't stop laughing. I didn't. That's what you said. "So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you?" That translates into "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules." You said it, I didn't. The answer is quite obviously yes. Not everyone sees Hulk #181 as you do. And that's perfectly fine and wonderful. If everyone viewed Hulk #181 the way you do, it would be unobtainable for all except the richest, and everything else would be worthless. You really are quite dismissive of those with whom you don't agree, aren't you? I'm sorry if that confuses you. Oops. I'm sorry for apologizing. Drat, did it again. Yes, but you're using your incredible gift for logic (Quine, eat your heart out!) to create your own translation into what I'm saying - it's not dismissive. It's a question. That's why you're so amusing. And there you go again apologizing Whether you intended it or not, "So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you?" clearly implies "You would take some stupid variant over the awesome and supremely important first appearance of Wolverine? What kind of insufficiently_thoughtful_person are you?" or simply "What I collect rules. What you collect sucks."

What is logical about What Ifs? If I my skeleton was made of platinum, would you kill me to get it? The "logical" answer is, of course, "Hell yes!" I mean, come on! It's a skeleton made of PLATINUM! That's gotta be worth millions! 10.000 copies...despite not even existing in the first place for Cerebus...in one hand would change the dynamics of the market for those books. You think the obvious answer is "Hulk #181." But you think only in terms of the market as it stands right now. Flooding it with 10,000 copies would cause serious convulsions. And very few people have the space to hold 10,000 slabs of anything. Slabs take up a TREMENDOUS amount of space. The obvious answer in this completely unrealistic hypothetical situation is to take the Hulks. But I certainly wouldn't give that much (relatively) for them.

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break. 2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless.

It is? So who determine's 'importance'? The market? Well in this case the market has spoken. Chuck, please don't add to the number of posters here who confuse separate concepts. Key status is just a way of describing how important/significant a book is. It is linked to value because it affects demand, but value doesn't make keys.

In a thread about a book being "more valuable" than another? That's crazy! That is the whole problem here. Some people cannot seem to differentiate between value, supply, demand, importance, etc. They may be linked, but they are still separate.

Wow.