Baker Romance 43 43

[Changer]

Examples Couple to compare  

Edited May 26 by Changer

[LadyDeath]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:41 PM, Changer said:

Looking at the composition, negative space, the horse , the masterful way the clothing is done I would say baker cover, but maybe I’m biased since got copy ;) 

 

Agree on the clothing. Baker's horses are usually a bit better though. The eyes give it a derpy look.

[Point Five]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:58 PM, Changer said:

Examples Couple to compare  

Thanks, these examples are helpful.  To me it's even clearer that the Slash-D Doublecross cover came from a different hand. The inking is vastly cruder and less elegant. I don't see the Baker finesse to the clothing... I mean, it's not completely terrible, but the Texan examples have much more subtle line quality. The horses in all the other examples show careful handling and knowledge of anatomy.

To meet you halfway, maybe Slash-D is Baker pencils and someone else (with 5 minutes to make a printing deadline) on inks? I guess it's possible.

 

[Changer]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:53 PM, Point Five said:

Thanks, these examples are helpful.  To me it's even clearer that the Slash-D Doublecross cover came from a different hand. The inking is vastly cruder and less elegant. I don't see the Baker finesse to the clothing... I mean, it's not completely terrible, but the Texan examples have much more subtle line quality. The horses in all the other examples show careful handling and knowledge of anatomy.

To meet you halfway, maybe Slash-D is Baker pencils and someone else (with 5 minutes to make a printing deadline) on inks? I guess it's possible.

 

interesting, not sure who inked. the normal handling of clothing and composition for most westerns were not well done. I think the way the clothe drapes over , the way the horse ears and tufts match up, the well done anatomy of the male figure says Baker ( especially more Baker when compared to many PL), I did discuss with a couple other Baker collectors before hand, maybe too many hence the price on the last auction, lol.

And not to pick on Lubber but grabbed a st. john randomly to see the difference especially on the clothe and comp. 

Edited May 26 by Changer

[Mavrick76]

I asked ChatGPT (after uploading front cover photo ChatGPT credits Lubbers for the cover 🤷🏻‍♂️) I wanted to take a non human approach  to this debate 

More 🐴 talk below:

The depiction of the horse on the cover of "Slash-D Doublecross" by Bob Lubbers differs from the typical style of Matt Baker in several ways:

1. **Anatomy and Realism**: Bob Lubbers' horse exhibits a more realistic approach to anatomy, capturing the musculature and structure of the animal with accuracy. The horse's muscles, facial features, and proportions are rendered with a focus on realism, giving it a lifelike appearance.

2. **Dynamic Posing**: The horse is shown in a dynamic pose, emphasizing movement and action, which is consistent with Lubbers' overall dynamic composition style. The horse's rearing position and the flow of its mane and tail contribute to the sense of urgency and excitement in the scene.

3. **Expressiveness**: Lubbers' horse is highly expressive, with wide eyes and an open mouth, which helps convey the intensity and drama of the moment. This level of expressiveness adds to the overall emotional impact of the image.

4. **Detailing**: The detailing in Lubbers' horse is meticulous, with careful attention to the texture of the fur, the structure of the hooves, and the intricate elements of the bridle and reins. This level of detail enhances the realism and depth of the illustration.

In contrast, Matt Baker's horses often had a slightly more stylized and idealized look:

1. **Stylization**: Baker's horses sometimes leaned towards a more stylized form, with smoother lines and less emphasis on detailed anatomy. This approach can give his horses a sleek and graceful appearance, fitting with his elegant and fluid art style.

2. **Simplified Anatomy**: While Baker was skilled in anatomy, his horses might not exhibit the same level of anatomical detail and realism as Lubbers'. They often have cleaner, more simplified lines that contribute to a different aesthetic.

3. **Less Expressive Features**: Baker's horses may have less expressive facial features compared to Lubbers'. They often focus more on the overall grace and flow of the figure rather than the intense expressiveness seen in Lubbers' work.

4. **Use of Light and Shadow**: Baker often used a softer approach to light and shadow on his horses, which can give them a more polished and idealized look compared to the more dramatic and contrasting use of light and shadow by Lubbers.

In summary, while both artists were highly skilled, Lubbers' depiction of horses tends to be more realistic, detailed, and expressive, fitting his dynamic and dramatic style. Baker's horses, on the other hand, are more stylized, smooth, and elegant, aligning with his overall artistic approach.

 

 

 

[Mavrick76]

On 5/26/2024 at 7:28 AM, Mavrick76 said:

I asked ChatGPT (after uploading front cover photo ChatGPT credits Lubbers for the cover 🤷🏻‍♂️) I wanted to take a non human approach  to this debate 

More 🐴 talk below:

The depiction of the horse on the cover of "Slash-D Doublecross" by Bob Lubbers differs from the typical style of Matt Baker in several ways:

1. **Anatomy and Realism**: Bob Lubbers' horse exhibits a more realistic approach to anatomy, capturing the musculature and structure of the animal with accuracy. The horse's muscles, facial features, and proportions are rendered with a focus on realism, giving it a lifelike appearance.

2. **Dynamic Posing**: The horse is shown in a dynamic pose, emphasizing movement and action, which is consistent with Lubbers' overall dynamic composition style. The horse's rearing position and the flow of its mane and tail contribute to the sense of urgency and excitement in the scene.

3. **Expressiveness**: Lubbers' horse is highly expressive, with wide eyes and an open mouth, which helps convey the intensity and drama of the moment. This level of expressiveness adds to the overall emotional impact of the image.

4. **Detailing**: The detailing in Lubbers' horse is meticulous, with careful attention to the texture of the fur, the structure of the hooves, and the intricate elements of the bridle and reins. This level of detail enhances the realism and depth of the illustration.

In contrast, Matt Baker's horses often had a slightly more stylized and idealized look:

1. **Stylization**: Baker's horses sometimes leaned towards a more stylized form, with smoother lines and less emphasis on detailed anatomy. This approach can give his horses a sleek and graceful appearance, fitting with his elegant and fluid art style.

2. **Simplified Anatomy**: While Baker was skilled in anatomy, his horses might not exhibit the same level of anatomical detail and realism as Lubbers'. They often have cleaner, more simplified lines that contribute to a different aesthetic.

3. **Less Expressive Features**: Baker's horses may have less expressive facial features compared to Lubbers'. They often focus more on the overall grace and flow of the figure rather than the intense expressiveness seen in Lubbers' work.

4. **Use of Light and Shadow**: Baker often used a softer approach to light and shadow on his horses, which can give them a more polished and idealized look compared to the more dramatic and contrasting use of light and shadow by Lubbers.

In summary, while both artists were highly skilled, Lubbers' depiction of horses tends to be more realistic, detailed, and expressive, fitting his dynamic and dramatic style. Baker's horses, on the other hand, are more stylized, smooth, and elegant, aligning with his overall artistic approach.

 

 

 

And here’s a counter argument: historical evidence mentioned previously:

The cover of "Slash-D Doublecross" was illustrated by Matt Baker. This information is confirmed by historical records and comic book databases. Baker was a prolific artist known for his detailed and expressive style, which extended across various genres, including Westerns. For more details, you can refer to sources such as [MyComicShop](https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=369771) which lists the comic and credits Matt Baker for the cover art [oai_citation:1,Slash-D Doublecross (1950) comic books](https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=369771).
The cover of "Slash-D Doublecross" was omic books](https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=369771).

I’ll try uploading different images of horses and clothing and post the response. 
 

Happy Sunday everyone 

Edited May 26 by Mavrick76

[Point Five]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:58 PM, Changer said:

Examples Couple to compare  

Also, not the main point here, but I'd just like to flag that you're making me want to collect The Texan and I'm not happy about that.   

 

 

[Changer]

On 5/26/2024 at 4:28 AM, Mavrick76 said:

I asked ChatGPT (after uploading front cover photo ChatGPT credits Lubbers for the cover 🤷🏻‍♂️) I wanted to take a non human approach  to this debate 

More 🐴 talk below:

The depiction of the horse on the cover of "Slash-D Doublecross" by Bob Lubbers differs from the typical style of Matt Baker in several ways:

1. **Anatomy and Realism**: Bob Lubbers' horse exhibits a more realistic approach to anatomy, capturing the musculature and structure of the animal with accuracy. The horse's muscles, facial features, and proportions are rendered with a focus on realism, giving it a lifelike appearance.

2. **Dynamic Posing**: The horse is shown in a dynamic pose, emphasizing movement and action, which is consistent with Lubbers' overall dynamic composition style. The horse's rearing position and the flow of its mane and tail contribute to the sense of urgency and excitement in the scene.

3. **Expressiveness**: Lubbers' horse is highly expressive, with wide eyes and an open mouth, which helps convey the intensity and drama of the moment. This level of expressiveness adds to the overall emotional impact of the image.

4. **Detailing**: The detailing in Lubbers' horse is meticulous, with careful attention to the texture of the fur, the structure of the hooves, and the intricate elements of the bridle and reins. This level of detail enhances the realism and depth of the illustration.

In contrast, Matt Baker's horses often had a slightly more stylized and idealized look:

1. **Stylization**: Baker's horses sometimes leaned towards a more stylized form, with smoother lines and less emphasis on detailed anatomy. This approach can give his horses a sleek and graceful appearance, fitting with his elegant and fluid art style.

2. **Simplified Anatomy**: While Baker was skilled in anatomy, his horses might not exhibit the same level of anatomical detail and realism as Lubbers'. They often have cleaner, more simplified lines that contribute to a different aesthetic.

3. **Less Expressive Features**: Baker's horses may have less expressive facial features compared to Lubbers'. They often focus more on the overall grace and flow of the figure rather than the intense expressiveness seen in Lubbers' work.

4. **Use of Light and Shadow**: Baker often used a softer approach to light and shadow on his horses, which can give them a more polished and idealized look compared to the more dramatic and contrasting use of light and shadow by Lubbers.

In summary, while both artists were highly skilled, Lubbers' depiction of horses tends to be more realistic, detailed, and expressive, fitting his dynamic and dramatic style. Baker's horses, on the other hand, are more stylized, smooth, and elegant, aligning with his overall artistic approach.

 

 

 

Interesting. Send me the prompt. Maybe if we feed in 5 known images from both artists it can analyze  the whole drawing . In the case of the lubber anatomy horse and human , seems much looser and off, especially that Texan. But that’s my art degree speaking and my human side speaking   I do think the inks are strong on it, so maybe collab

Edited May 26 by Changer

[Mavrick76]

On 5/26/2024 at 10:58 AM, Changer said:

Interesting. Send me the prompt. Maybe if we feed in 5 known images from both artists it can analyze  the whole drawing . In the case of the lubber anatomy horse and human , seems much looser and off, especially that Texan. But that’s my art degree speaking and my human side speaking   I do think the inks are strong on it, so maybe collab

Here are the prompts I used:

1. Did Matt Baker draw this cover?
2. Can you tell me more about this cover?3.Can you comment on the style of drawing?4.Can you comment on the horse, how is it different than Matt baker drawn horses?

5. Why did Matt baker not illustrate this cover?

6. But why are you saying that this cover isn’t drawn by Matt Baker?

7. Please elaborate why this a Matt baker cover. Provide evidence.   

 

These prompts are pretty generic…think we can get more granular with the queries…

 

 

Edited May 26 by Mavrick76

[Darwination]

While I may agree with the conclusion of our AI overlord here, I'm not sure I agree with some of the lines of reasoning. For example:

**Anatomy and Realism**: Bob Lubbers' horse exhibits a more realistic approach to anatomy, capturing the musculature and structure of the animal with accuracy. The horse's muscles, facial features, and proportions are rendered with a focus on realism, giving it a lifelike appearance.

o.O

I've had front seat to many excellent debates on Baker ID (and given my own minor input on occasion) and seen people I consider the experts (we've got some here!) strongly disagree in certain cases.  As distinctive as most of Baker's work is, I find some of it in a very different mode (and shop work/collaboration doesn't help either).

Anyways, all I'm saying is while I'm happy to give AI some input, I won't be looking to it for a definitive response on art matters

[Changer]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:39 AM, Darwination said:

While I may agree with the conclusion of our AI overlord here, I'm not sure I agree with some of the lines of reasoning. For example:

**Anatomy and Realism**: Bob Lubbers' horse exhibits a more realistic approach to anatomy, capturing the musculature and structure of the animal with accuracy. The horse's muscles, facial features, and proportions are rendered with a focus on realism, giving it a lifelike appearance.

o.O

I've had front seat to many excellent debates on Baker ID (and given my own minor input on occasion) and seen people I consider the experts (we've got some here!) strongly disagree in certain cases.  As distinctive as most of Baker's work is, I find some of it in a very different mode (and shop work/collaboration doesn't help either).

Anyways, all I'm saying is while I'm happy to give AI some input, I won't be looking to it for a definitive response on art matters

yeah I think you need to be very careful about trusting ai at this point, i just fed in the texan (lubber image) and it said this 

 

who drew this ?

ChatGPT

The cover art for "The Texan Comics" you provided was drawn by Matt Baker. Matt Baker was a prolific comic book artist known for his work during the Golden Age of Comics, particularly with St. John Publications. His style is recognizable for its dynamic composition and attention to detail, particularly in character expressions and action scenes.

Edited May 26 by Changer

[LadyDeath]

“All the women, white and black, went crazy for him, and I know he had a bunch of gals on the hook. You know how he drew women perfectly? The anatomy was magnificent, down to every muscle. Everyone who knew him knew that could only come from exhaustive personal research. He was the envy of everybody.” — Bob Lubbers

What a legend.

[Ryan.]

On 5/26/2024 at 1:44 PM, LadyDeath said:

“All the women, white and black, went crazy for him, and I know he had a bunch of gals on the hook. You know how he drew women perfectly? The anatomy was magnificent, down to every muscle. Everyone who knew him knew that could only come from exhaustive personal research. He was the envy of everybody.” — Bob Lubbers

What a legend.

That's, umm, inconsistent with what most people believed about his, err, preferences. 

[Yorick]

On 5/25/2024 at 5:40 PM, MBFan said:

once you see the whole piece for yourself

Clearly no interior content by Baker.  Thanks for the link!

[comicnoir]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:56 AM, Point Five said:

Also, not the main point here, but I'd just like to flag that you're making me want to collect The Texan and I'm not happy about that.   

 

 

You should be collecting the Texan. Very nice Baker.

[LadyDeath]

On 5/26/2024 at 2:27 PM, Ryan. said:

That's, umm, inconsistent with what most people believed about his, err, preferences. 

Yeah, I've heard conflicting things. Everything else seems accurate though.

[Sqeggs]

All right, Bakerites. Think you've uncovered some rare and desirable Baker items? Think your Baker collection is complete? Think your collection can't be topped? Well, I say thee Nay! 

I have uncovered a Baker item of such unsurpassed rarity as to shiver your timbers! An item that you will despair of duplicating!

Edited May 27 by Sqeggs
Typo

[Sqeggs]

Look on my item ye mighty and despair!

A rarity from that period in which Baker was working for Quality under the pen name "Ogden Whitney." 

[Sqeggs]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:32 PM, LadyDeath said:

I've mentioned this for a while, especially with the Phantom Lady covers. It's very annoying and suspect. Flyin' Jenny is another I brought up recently that is most likely a Jack Kamen cover misattributed to Baker. There's two graded copies up on ebay both with Baker's name emblazoned on the description. I don't know how it started or why it continues, but it needs to be corrected.

Yeah. I don't think JVJ bought the Flyin' Jenny cover and I think he was right. I've a copy or two but never thought that it was a Baker book. 

[Sqeggs]

On 11/16/2023 at 4:16 PM, Changer said:

hate to ask but what is the consensus on this one ... Kamen? 

That would be my take.