will CA ever trump GA?

[Dick Pontoon]

Pont, I used the think the same way.

 

Besides the obvious Kirby reference there are just too many other terrific writers and artists to condem GA creators.

 

Matt Baker could draw women like nobody else ever will (I think he was the first black artist as well). They weren't proportioned like todays Power Girl plastic filled Vegas show girls.They were beautiful.

Check out the fluid lines and action of Lou Fine and Will Eisner.

Check out the simple perfection of Mac Raboy.

The all out action covers of Alex Schomburg...especially his stuff pre 1942.

 

There were writers that were on the same level in the 40's as Frank Miller was in teh 80's

There were artists that were on the same level in the 40's as guys like Byrne and Perez.

 

Some top notch stuff there.

 

Oh I agree with you, those are all stellar art examples. I just thought the books conditionfreak posted ( ) were examples of hum-drum GA art and not doing much for his argument of good stuff from that era.

[nik]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

[conditionfreak]

When it comes to having something that few if any others have (isn't that what life is all about

 

If you think "that's what life is about" then I assume your kids are all physically perfect and presidents of companies and countries, right? Otherwise, they'd all be total failures and likely given up for adoption.

 

To me, life is about finding what you want to do and doing it, and finding happiness through those pursuits, not through what others think. I collect BA, and I could give a rat's hass what any GA fogey thinks of it. Call them "common junk" as many of you do, and I'll just smile and feel sorry for you and your "sheep follower" mentality.

 

If you live your life through others, as you obviously do, that must be one -up way of going through the years.

 

Ha Ha,

Leave it up to the resident pooper scooper to make it personal, AGAIN. I made my comment about "isn't that what life is all about", in mockery of many of us comic collectors and chasers of the almighty dollar. If you have read (and indeed you have) my previous posts on this site, you know that I am not about that stuff, although I do enjoy chasing Gerber 8's and 9's.

 

As I have stated many times before on this forum. I have had a wonderful life, exciting and fulfilling life and would change little even if I could. I have had a blast (and still enjoy it, unlike apparently you with all of your bitterness and frustrations).

 

I don't expect nor even desire to be President of the World. But I don't want to be at the bottom of the barrel either. I have always said that money isn't everything and that those that "win" in life, are those that have a job (career) that they enjoy (something you do that is fun and you get paid for it). I don't want a Ferrari, but I don't won't a Yugo either.

 

When it comes to collecting, I DO WANT what others covet. I DO WANT some things I don't even like if I think that they are a good investment. I DO NOT WANT to live up to someone else's expectations or standards. Just because some spoon thinks that what I like or collect is silly, it will not change my habits or desires one bit. There are always one or two nuts lying on the ground trying to be a tree. Most do not make it.

 

Again, J.C., you make a spoon out of yourself because you think that you are the schiznit and just plain smarter than the rest of us. Talk about a pitiful outlook on life. If you want to make it personal, no problem. I'll rip you a new spoon. If you want to have a decent conversation, then no problem also. We can agree to disagree. I contributed some light hearted conversation, and made a few points here and there. But I didn't make it personal, even though you have begged for it.

 

Now, behave yourself, or this old fogey will spank you. Second thought, forget that. I wouldn't want to make you happy.

[hockey&comicsguy]

When it comes to having something that few if any others have (isn't that what life is all about

 

If you think "that's what life is about" then I assume your kids are all physically perfect and presidents of companies and countries, right? Otherwise, they'd all be total failures and likely given up for adoption. And I can only assume you own the rarest, limited edition Bentley, otherwise, why own a car?

 

To me, life is about finding what you want to do and doing it, and finding happiness through those pursuits, not through what others think. I collect BA, and I could give a rat's hass what any GA fogey thinks of it. Call them "common junk" as many of you do, and I'll just smile and feel sorry for you and your "sheep follower" mentality.

 

If you live your life through others, as you obviously do, that must be one -up way of going through the years.

 

Well then you have something in common with lots of GA collectors who laugh and chuckle at your ridiculous comments and insults about GA books. We could care less.

 

Plenty of us feel sorry for you as well JC. But for alot more important reasons than collecting comic books.

[Foolkiller]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

 

I agree. Baker's style to me is only noteworthy because it holds up over time -- it was unique then because his skill in drawing women was superior to the other rubes drawing most comic books back then.

 

People revere him now simply because his name evokes a reaction, but when you actually see it, I find it pretty pedestrian.

[Twistty1]

When it comes to having something that few if any others have (isn't that what life is all about

 

If you think "that's what life is about" then I assume your kids are all physically perfect and presidents of companies and countries, right? Otherwise, they'd all be total failures and likely given up for adoption. And I can only assume you own the rarest, limited edition Bentley, otherwise, why own a car?

 

To me, life is about finding what you want to do and doing it, and finding happiness through those pursuits, not through what others think. I collect BA, and I could give a rat's hass what any GA fogey thinks of it. Call them "common junk" as many of you do, and I'll just smile and feel sorry for you and your "sheep follower" mentality.

 

If you live your life through others, as you obviously do, that must be one -up way of going through the years.

 

Well then you have something in common with lots of GA collectors who laugh and chuckle at your ridiculous comments and insults about GA books. We could care less.

 

Plenty of us feel sorry for you as well JC. But for alot more important reasons than collecting comic books.

 

Interesting view pionts...I think that the collecting mentality can take many directions...if you like to follow others' dirctions and collect what they like then why not? That would just be your own style of collecting again..others like to think that they collect something that noone else would collect like green covers or something.... I dont think anyone has the right to complain or whine about what others are doing unless they are ripping people off, otherwise just do your own thing...I personally collect all three genres as many may have seen by my this week in your collection posts ( http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=2575321&Searchpage=4&Main=39428&Words=Twistty1&topic=0&Search=true#Post2575321 )...who care's...I also like having what alot of other people may because sometimes I enjoy being a part of a collective..I also dont see alot of people collecting strickly crime or SOTI books posting things here either, which is my personal favourite..I like everything about the this art form, the only I dont like about it are people that think they know more because they have been doing it longer and try to make this known by putting others down and people that constantly put in there 2 cents on other peoples business because they are either dealers or have been collecting for a long time and feel entitled for some strange reason...

I also personally feel Baker's style and knowledge of the female figure and composition is fantasitic and that he paved the way for what other artists are doing now, even if they are doing it better now...I would hope that would otherwise the artform would not be progressing...

[Cimm]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

 

Amazing! I find Baker's women to be among the best drawn ever... the sexuality is there, without being over the top or in your face, they are realistic, and not monstrous in any of their anatomical attributes... Baker's backgrounds and men ARE fairly pedestrian, but his women... unmatched!

[bergdoll]

There are many reasons to collect - and the *death* of comics is about as common as the *death* of Superman and Batman - it never "really" happens.

 

The best way to to look at other collectible markets - such as stamps and coins. These markets remain healthy, but the various areas of collecting come in and out of fashion. These hobbies still attract new collectors and older collectors are seeking ever scarcer material.

 

For example, you mention the "slow death" of funny animals. I assume you don't collect this genre or you would know how wrong you are.

 

The decline of westerns makes sense - it isn't a genre that is alive in popular culture today and the books are less sought after - will this change? Let us look back at two other genre's: Romance and Horror. Both were in the doldrums for years and we see little jumps in the price of Romance every so often. Horror is currently quite hot.

 

Another factor that people fail to consider on pricing is the entry of new material to the market.

 

When it comes to GA books, it is very likely that we are "playing with a known deck". That is to say, the chances of an original-owner collection coming to market are slim to nil. Assuming that the original owners were 10-20 years old in the 1940's, then they would be 68 at the youngest and upwards of 88 at the older range. As some of them die and their attics get searched, we may see a few books come to market, but it's unlikely.

 

It's also a small set that would have collected/saved/kept their books. Ads on the back of the GA books encouraged war-drive efforts, comics were considered "bad", etc, etc. Also, the record-breaking prices for GA books since the 1980's had a lot of folks checking their attics early!

 

Let's go to the SA+ books (and especially the BA/CA ones). There are not only all the copies we know about, there are all the copies still in the hands of the folks that bought them and stored them away. THOUSANDS of people had a brief love affair with collecting from the 70's to 90's and they just put the books aside because "one day they'll be worth something". It's been a long wait and few folks are going to take the time to see if they have a $10 book amongst their collection..... a GA $100,000 book - they'll look.

 

So we have a huge "hidden" supply of these books. It will surface as ages increase, values increase, and time passes. The rate of "pull" that these hidden collections demand will vary on popular culture, mainstream press coverage, and collector activity. There are many, many more Hulk #181's to be found.

 

Forget your dream of finding a stash of GA books at a garage sale. Hold on to the dream of finding some SA books now and then, expect to find BA and CA books if you put the effort in, and good luck selling any bulk moderns - nobody wants them.

 

The more disturbing price trends we have at the moment are the premiums being placed on 9.2+ books. I've seen this trend 4 times in the past.

 

1st - everyone I know bought multiple copies of Uncanny X-Men from about 130 up. Look at ads from books in this time period and you can see ads directly geared towards the speculators.

 

2nd - Black and White. Low print runs and high popularity drove prices up. High prices lead to multiple issue buyers which led to high print runs with led to prices falling which led to "Bonfire parties". It didn't help that quality of art and story-telling was very low.

 

3rd - the 1990's special covers, hidden editions, "gimmicks". This is called "false scarcity" and really was market manipulation (which should be dealt with in criminal court). At least the story quality and art was better than the Black & White era, but it led to speculation and collector dissatisfaction (shrinking the market of buyers/readers/collectors)

 

4th - Internet availability, CGC speculation. There are MANY good things I have to say about third-party grading. I love it and respect it very, very much. For me, the most valuable service is the restoration check. However. We now have a fast-pace market and an assurance of quality.... except. To be quite honest, while I respect the CGC very much, I sincerely believe that the qualitative difference in .2 grade spreads remains subjective. Getting a 9.6 or a 9.8 can be described as a lottery. Paying a significant premium on a 9.6+ book is best described as a "risk" and at worst "insane". (okay - middle ground. It's speculative and there is nothing wring with that - just call it what it is and don't pretend it's some sort of sound investment)

 

I'm also thinking a sub-market are the variant covers which concern me as well. $100 spent on a 1:100 variant is $100 NOT spent elsewhere. A great tool if you are trying to shut-out your competitor without really having to create a competing product (the stories inside are the same). Not so good for healthy market growth (it re-directs funds and acts as a DE-motivator for new collectors and those that can't "complete" series). In fact - variant covers drive readers to trades. Why collect single issues if you can complete a set fully - might as well read trades. Which means less visits to the comic shop, less periodic interaction, faster attrition rates of collectors to other interests. Never under estimate the power of the "club" factor of comic shops.

 

Whew... long post.

 

In short. GA is a stable market with strong demand and rising prices.

SA is getting there.

BA/CA is a volatile market that appears to have some "behaviors" signaling dangerous activity (which appear to be consistent)

 

Collectors are not always readers.

In the old days, all readers were collectors by necessity.

Today - readers can use trades/reprints and do not need to collect.

I think readership will increase which will increase collectorship.

 

Publishers only care about collectors in as much as they can manipulate them into buying premium issues, multiple issues, etc. Marvel makes no money from a sale of AF15. (okay... maybe it will make someone pick-up a trade if it hits mainstream press)

 

 

[DrWatson]

When it comes to having something that few if any others have (isn't that what life is all about

 

If you think "that's what life is about" then I assume your kids are all physically perfect and presidents of companies and countries, right? Otherwise, they'd all be total failures and likely given up for adoption.

 

To me, life is about finding what you want to do and doing it, and finding happiness through those pursuits, not through what others think. I collect BA, and I could give a rat's hass what any GA fogey thinks of it. Call them "common junk" as many of you do, and I'll just smile and feel sorry for you and your "sheep follower" mentality.

 

If you live your life through others, as you obviously do, that must be one -up way of going through the years.

 

Ha Ha,

Leave it up to the resident pooper scooper to make it personal, AGAIN. I made my comment about "isn't that what life is all about", in mockery of many of us comic collectors and chasers of the almighty dollar. If you have read (and indeed you have) my previous posts on this site, you know that I am not about that stuff, although I do enjoy chasing Gerber 8's and 9's.

 

As I have stated many times before on this forum. I have had a wonderful life, exciting and fulfilling life and would change little even if I could. I have had a blast (and still enjoy it, unlike apparently you with all of your bitterness and frustrations).

 

I don't expect nor even desire to be President of the World. But I don't want to be at the bottom of the barrel either. I have always said that money isn't everything and that those that "win" in life, are those that have a job (career) that they enjoy (something you do that is fun and you get paid for it). I don't want a Ferrari, but I don't won't a Yugo either.

 

When it comes to collecting, I DO WANT what others covet. I DO WANT some things I don't even like if I think that they are a good investment. I DO NOT WANT to live up to someone else's expectations or standards. Just because some spoon thinks that what I like or collect is silly, it will not change my habits or desires one bit. There are always one or two nuts lying on the ground trying to be a tree. Most do not make it.

 

Again, J.C., you make a spoon out of yourself because you think that you are the schiznit and just plain smarter than the rest of us. Talk about a pitiful outlook on life. If you want to make it personal, no problem. I'll rip you a new spoon. If you want to have a decent conversation, then no problem also. We can agree to disagree. I contributed some light hearted conversation, and made a few points here and there. But I didn't make it personal, even though you have begged for it.

 

Now, behave yourself, or this old fogey will spank you. Second thought, forget that. I wouldn't want to make you happy.

[DrWatson]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

 

Amazing! I find Baker's women to be among the best drawn ever... the sexuality is there, without being over the top or in your face, they are realistic, and not monstrous in any of their anatomical attributes... Baker's backgrounds and men ARE fairly pedestrian, but his women... unmatched!

I am not sure that the above pictured female is drawn with what I would call realistic proportions. Flattering and attractive, yes. Realistic, no.

[joe_collector]

I have had a blast (and still enjoy it, unlike apparently you with all of your bitterness and frustrations).

 

, you'd be so lucky to have my life, and contrary to popular belief, I only find myself being irritated on these boards.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like collecting comics and talking about them, but I absolutely detest brainless, herd-like behavior and it's quite common on sheep-heavy boards like this. I'm a wolf and don't associate with sheep in real-life, but there's no way around it on a public board.

[bergdoll]

Opps. I may have failed to answer completely the original post in my long-winded comic book industry post.

 

Answer: NO (at least in the next 20-40 years)

Reason: The BA/CA market is currently too volatile to sustain even the current prices, let alone grow them.

[VintageComics]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

 

Try these Nik. Even Perez and Byrne are not perfect.

 

 

 

[bergdoll]

I have had a blast (and still enjoy it, unlike apparently you with all of your bitterness and frustrations).

 

, you'd be so lucky to have my life, and contrary to popular belief, I only find myself being irritated on these boards.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like collecting comics and talking about them, but I absolutely detest brainless, herd-like behavior and it's quite common on sheep-heavy boards like this. I'm a wolf and don't associate with sheep in real-life, but there's no way around it on a public board.

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

Brainless, herd-like behavior like paying huge premiums on high-grade CA books drives me nuts.

[Dick Pontoon]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

 

I agree. Baker's style to me is only noteworthy because it holds up over time -- it was unique then because his skill in drawing women was superior to the other rubes drawing most comic books back then.

 

People revere him now simply because his name evokes a reaction, but when you actually see it, I find it pretty pedestrian.

 

I think he has more skill and style than you guys give him credit for, and I also think it's a matter of taste.

 

You also need to put his work in context. We're now inundated with scantily clad women on a daily basis but that wasn't the case back then. He's basically drawn these amply proportioned naked women who look built for sex, and then covered the naughty bits with the smallest and flimsiest fabric possible. Imagine seeing that stuff on the newstands in the 40s, long before anything approaching Playboy was readily available.

[joe_collector]

Brainless, herd-like behavior like paying huge premiums on high-grade CA books drives me nuts.

 

 

Now point me to the large group of people currently advocating a change to high-grade CA, and painting other eras as "common", "no challenge to collect" and "worthless".

[bergdoll]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

 

I agree. Baker's style to me is only noteworthy because it holds up over time -- it was unique then because his skill in drawing women was superior to the other rubes drawing most comic books back then.

 

People revere him now simply because his name evokes a reaction, but when you actually see it, I find it pretty pedestrian.

 

I think he has more skill and style than you guys give him credit for, and I also think it's a matter of taste.

 

You also need to put his work in context. We're now inundated with scantily clad women on a daily basis but that wasn't the case back then. He's basically drawn these amply proportioned naked women who look built for sex, and then covered the naughty bits with the smallest and flimsiest fabric possible. Imagine seeing that stuff on the newstands in the 40s, long before anything approaching Playboy was readily available.

 

Which affects prices?

 

I like GA books, but just because there are some great books (I like Ducks) isn't what this conversation as about .. unless I'm wrong...

[burntboy]

 

Sorry Roy, nothing special about his style or the way he drew women

 

I agree. Baker's style to me is only noteworthy because it holds up over time -- it was unique then because his skill in drawing women was superior to the other rubes drawing most comic books back then.

 

People revere him now simply because his name evokes a reaction, but when you actually see it, I find it pretty pedestrian.

 

Sorry, Brian, but there ain't nothing Pedestrian about that cover................

 

and might i add, that doing something unique will always carry a certain cachet...

[VintageComics]

Or these...personally I have never seen more beautiful women in comics...ever...and he draws men really well too.

 

 

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

I have had a blast (and still enjoy it, unlike apparently you with all of your bitterness and frustrations).

 

, you'd be so lucky to have my life, and contrary to popular belief, I only find myself being irritated on these boards.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like collecting comics and talking about them, but I absolutely detest brainless, herd-like behavior and it's quite common on sheep-heavy boards like this. I'm a wolf and don't associate with sheep in real-life, but there's no way around it on a public board.

 

Oh brother. You've got to be kidding. Is this really the shtick you've been going with for 6 years? The more you boast, the less believable you are.

 

You probably find yourself "only being irritated on these boards" b/c its the one place you can safely and anonymously be a pompous, braggart. My guess is you don't act like this in public as common sense and a real world grasp of your relative importance to those around you likely prevails.