PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Logan510]

I am not sure how a potential, alleged, unsubstantiated difficulty with the language in any way changes or explains away any of the things he's said, and then repeated, and then reworded, and then repeated and in no way lessened the impact of the lies.

 

I see your point, a lie is a lie in any language. I am not a fan of liars or condone lying by any means but is it HOS worthy?

 

P.S. - you are one of my favorite posters on this message board so there is no chance of me getting into an arguement with you.

 

 

If it has to do with altering a deal....why not? Is the HoS only for people who steal money? What about the guy on the HoS who just reneged on a deal and didn't pay the large sum he owed. I could be wrong...and please correct me if I am, but I believe the seller didn't lose the book...he just never got paid what he was promised.

[bryan91]

I am not sure how a potential, alleged, unsubstantiated difficulty with the language in any way changes or explains away any of the things he's said, and then repeated, and then reworded, and then repeated and in no way lessened the impact of the lies.

 

I see your point, a lie is a lie in any language. I am not a fan of liars or condone lying by any means but is it HOS worthy?

 

P.S. - you are one of my favorite posters on this message board so there is no chance of me getting into an arguement with you.

 

 

If it has to do with altering a deal....why not? Is the HoS only for people who steal money? What about the guy on the HoS who just reneged on a deal and didn't pay the large sum he owed. I could be wrong...and please correct me if I am, but I believe the seller didn't lose the book...he just never got paid what he was promised.

 

No, I don't look at the HoS as only being for people who steal money but rather a list of people who did something so wrong and caused problems beyond repair.

 

If the reason he is on there is for altering a deal why would he not just be put on the PL so he could have a chance to make right of his transaction that went bad? I believe he said he contacted the involved party to try to work things out. Was that not the case? I could be wrong on that since there are so many pages to this whole thing.

[Logan510]

I am not sure how a potential, alleged, unsubstantiated difficulty with the language in any way changes or explains away any of the things he's said, and then repeated, and then reworded, and then repeated and in no way lessened the impact of the lies.

 

I see your point, a lie is a lie in any language. I am not a fan of liars or condone lying by any means but is it HOS worthy?

 

P.S. - you are one of my favorite posters on this message board so there is no chance of me getting into an arguement with you.

 

 

If it has to do with altering a deal....why not? Is the HoS only for people who steal money? What about the guy on the HoS who just reneged on a deal and didn't pay the large sum he owed. I could be wrong...and please correct me if I am, but I believe the seller didn't lose the book...he just never got paid what he was promised.

 

No, I don't look at the HoS as only being for people who steal money but rather a list of people who did something so wrong and caused problems beyond repair.

 

If the reason he is on there is for altering a deal why would he not just be put on the PL so he could have a chance to make right of his transaction that went bad? I believe he said he contacted the involved party to try to work things out. Was that not the case? I could be wrong on that since there are so many pages to this whole thing.

 

 

Please do not take offense to this, but maybe you should get all the facts on this issue before weighing in on it.

[Hado]

I've been at work all day which is why I haven't responded.

 

SC1 has asked me to remove the poll, which I have done, because I want to respect his wishes. Even though after reading some posts, I think the results would have been at the very least not the overwhelming majority it was when he was added to the list.

 

After speaking with Bosco, I think he is correct, that it is too soon to re-visit this issue. Perhaps at a later date, we will speak of this again but another poll won't come from me. A poll may have more merit coming from a neutral party, so no one thinks I have some ulterior motive.

 

My thoughts weren't to ask the questions: Do you like SC1? Do you trust him? Or many of the same ilk. The only thing I was asking is do you think the situation warrants his being on the HOS.

 

I do want to thank everyone for keeping this a mature dialog, and apologize for stirring up this hornets nest and stealing everyone's Sunday.

 

-Glen

Edited January 13, 2014 by Hado

[jaybuck43]

Mrs. Hado should make everyone thank you cards

 

 

[CAHokie]

I've been at work all day which is why I haven't responded.

 

SC1 has asked me to remove the poll, which I have done, because I want to respect his wishes. Even though after reading some posts, I think the results would have been at the very least not the overwhelming majority it was when he was added to the list.

 

After speaking with Bosco, I think he is correct, that it is too soon to re-visit this issue. Perhaps at a later date, we will speak of this again but another poll won't come from me. A poll may have more merit coming from a neutral party, so no one thinks I have some ulterior motive.

 

My thoughts weren't to ask the questions: Do you like SC1? Do you trust him? Or many of the same ilk. The only think I was asking is do you think the situation warrants his being on the HOS.

 

I do want to thank everyone for keeping this a mature dialog, and apologize for stirring up this hornets nest and stealing everyone's Sunday.

 

-Glen

 

Like I said before Hado, you are a good guy. You do not need to apologize to anyone because you were doing what you believed to be the right thing.

[comix4fun]

I am not sure how a potential, alleged, unsubstantiated difficulty with the language in any way changes or explains away any of the things he's said, and then repeated, and then reworded, and then repeated and in no way lessened the impact of the lies.

 

I see your point, a lie is a lie in any language. I am not a fan of liars or condone lying by any means but is it HOS worthy?

 

P.S. - you are one of my favorite posters on this message board so there is no chance of me getting into an arguement with you.

 

 

Well thanks. I try to be fair in instances like this.

 

It's not the one lie, as much as the sum total of the lies, and the context around them.

 

We've seen the true face a few times. Then when the heat got too hot the comments were "a joke". Then the apology comes, but between the lines, and looking at the jabs and pokes he includes it's impossible to trust the apology.

 

The reason I voted for the HOS to stay in place centers around the lies that occurred within the framework of transactions on these boards. Regardless of size of transactions, someone willing to lie (and proof being available of those lies) during dealings on this board tells me that there's something I can't trust about this person overall. That's deeper than a one-time PL offense where someone screws up and then makes it better.

 

The original $15 transaction issue, and the attempts that followed to alter the language of the deal parameters post acceptance, followed up by the revelation of the other instances where the truth was not told tells me that this is worse than the garden variety product dispute that can be corrected.

 

Someone who, on the same day, both touted how he flouted the HOS and it could not touch him and then "apologized" makes red flags go up. The fact that he followed it up with "lynch mob" and "sheep" comments tells me that he's not really sorry for what went down. He's trying to say what he thinks should be said but his real feelings keep popping out.

 

If there was another list a "Permanent Tool Shed" where we can inform boardies about people that would act as he has I would vote for it. I just haven't seen or heard anything from this person that lets me trust them in any way and I can't imagine washing it all away and letting other boardies walk into a deal without knowing what went down.

[Bosco685]

I've been at work all day which is why I haven't responded.

 

SC1 has asked me to remove the poll, which I have done, because I want to respect his wishes. Even though after reading some posts, I think the results would have been at the very least not the overwhelming majority it was when he was added to the list.

 

After speaking with Bosco, I think he is correct, that it is too soon to re-visit this issue. Perhaps at a later date, we will speak of this again but another poll won't come from me. A poll may have more merit coming from a neutral party, so no one thinks I have some ulterior motive.

 

My thoughts weren't to ask the questions: Do you like SC1? Do you trust him? Or many of the same ilk. The only thing I was asking is do you think the situation warrants his being on the HOS.

 

I do want to thank everyone for keeping this a mature dialog, and apologize for stirring up this hornets nest and stealing everyone's Sunday.

 

-Glen

 

You were supporting a friend and a cause you feel is right. There was nothing wrong with any of that.

 

[Logan510]

I am not sure how a potential, alleged, unsubstantiated difficulty with the language in any way changes or explains away any of the things he's said, and then repeated, and then reworded, and then repeated and in no way lessened the impact of the lies.

 

I see your point, a lie is a lie in any language. I am not a fan of liars or condone lying by any means but is it HOS worthy?

 

P.S. - you are one of my favorite posters on this message board so there is no chance of me getting into an arguement with you.

 

 

Well thanks. I try to be fair in instances like this.

 

It's not the one lie, as much as the sum total of the lies, and the context around them.

 

We've seen the true face a few times. Then when the heat got too hot the comments were "a joke". Then the apology comes, but between the lines, and looking at the jabs and pokes he includes it's impossible to trust the apology.

 

The reason I voted for the HOS to stay in place centers around the lies that occurred within the framework of transactions on these boards. Regardless of size of transactions, someone willing to lie (and proof being available of those lies) during dealings on this board tells me that there's something I can't trust about this person overall. That's deeper than a one-time PL offense where someone screws up and then makes it better.

 

The original $15 transaction issue, and the attempts that followed to alter the language of the deal parameters post acceptance, followed up by the revelation of the other instances where the truth was not told tells me that this is worse than the garden variety product dispute that can be corrected.

 

Someone who, on the same day, both touted how he flouted the HOS and it could not touch him and then "apologized" makes red flags go up. The fact that he followed it up with "lynch mob" and "sheep" comments tells me that he's not really sorry for what went down. He's trying to say what he thinks should be said but his real feelings keep popping out.

 

If there was another list a "Permanent Tool Shed" where we can inform boardies about people that would act as he has I would vote for it. I just haven't seen or heard anything from this person that lets me trust them in any way and I can't imagine washing it all away and letting other boardies walk into a deal without knowing what went down.

 

The funny thing is when someone pointed out in another thread that SOL was in the HoS, SOL branded them a troll Classic stuff.

[CAHokie]

Comix4fun, I think you nicely summed up the last 10 pages of comments. I agree 100%. One question I have is where did this speaking a different language come up? Is someone just proffering that as an excuse or was it actually said somewhere? The reason I ask is because I had a PM conversation with him a few months ago and I did not see any indications of a language barrier. In fact at the time, he seemed like a pleasant individual.

[Logan510]

I've been at work all day which is why I haven't responded.

 

SC1 has asked me to remove the poll, which I have done, because I want to respect his wishes. Even though after reading some posts, I think the results would have been at the very least not the overwhelming majority it was when he was added to the list.

 

After speaking with Bosco, I think he is correct, that it is too soon to re-visit this issue. Perhaps at a later date, we will speak of this again but another poll won't come from me. A poll may have more merit coming from a neutral party, so no one thinks I have some ulterior motive.

 

My thoughts weren't to ask the questions: Do you like SC1? Do you trust him? Or many of the same ilk. The only thing I was asking is do you think the situation warrants his being on the HOS.

 

I do want to thank everyone for keeping this a mature dialog, and apologize for stirring up this hornets nest and stealing everyone's Sunday.

 

-Glen

 

You were supporting a friend and a cause you feel is right. There was nothing wrong with any of that.

 

 

I don't know if I can agree with this. if I were "friends" with ComicSupply and came on here trying to get him removed from the HoS, I wouldn't be surprised if that raised a few eyebrows and made people wonder about me a little bit. We are judged by the company we keep after all.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I was not gonna stay out of trading due to being put on HOS. If it were truly effective no one would do any deals.

 

Some people value my books more than the list to care about upholding it...

 

 

[bryan91]

Comix4fun, I think you nicely summed up the last 10 pages of comments. I agree 100%. One question I have is where did this speaking a different language come up? Is someone just proffering that as an excuse or was it actually said somewhere? The reason I ask is because I had a PM conversation with him a few months ago and I did not see any indications of a language barrier. In fact at the time, he seemed like a pleasant individual.

 

I saw it mentioned several pages back.

 

I am just going to leave it alone as Hado is doing and just let it die.

[Bio-Rupp]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this proposed "third list" a few seem so in favor of

 

We have a PL that tells us that someone hasn't completed a transaction concerning either the buying or selling of merchandise. I consider this the "I didn't pay, ship on time, etc" category.

 

We have a HOS that houses truly the "worst of the worst". People who have been proven consistently, deceitful coupled with absolutely no remorse is what I like to place in this category. This is the "I started a thread using stolen pictures of books to sell that I don't own" or the ole "I switched out a book I received with a lesser grade copy to send back to the unsuspecting seller" kind of things.

 

What good would a third category do? Basically all a third category would be good for is tell people that the person in question is an arse hole. Hell we would all be on this list.

 

As much as I hate the idea of an all powerful boardie... I must admit that when POV was running (and I say this knowing full well he wasn't "running" it) the Probation and Hall of Shame areas... the PL / HOS list was a MUCH more organized place.

 

 

 

[Logan510]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this proposed "third list" a few seem so in favor of

 

We have a PL that tells us that someone hasn't completed a transaction concerning either the buying or selling of merchandise. I consider this the "I didn't pay, ship on time, etc" category.

 

We have a HOS that houses truly the "worst of the worst". People who have been proven consistently, deceitful coupled with absolutely no remorse is what I like to place in this category. This is the "I started a thread using stolen pictures of books to sell that I don't own" or the ole "I switched out a book I received with a lesser grade copy to send back to the unsuspecting seller" kind of things.

 

What good would a third category do? Basically all a third category would be good for is tell people that the person in question is an arse hole. Hell we would all be on this list.

 

As much as I hate the idea of an all powerful boardie... I must admit that when POV was running (and I say this knowing full well he wasn't "running" it) the Probation and Hall of Shame areas... the PL / HOS list was a MUCH more organized place.

 

 

 

The third list would be for the person who has been a multiple repeat offender. Someone who has been on the PL list more than once, but has been able to get off the list when it is convenient for them ( when they want to sell on the boards again ), sometimes after being on it for several months. I envision it as a fair warning list that would let a new member know that if they deal with this person, they might be taking a risk because the person has a history.

[Bosco685]

I don't know if I can agree with this. if I were "friends" with ComicSupply and came on here trying to get him removed from the HoS, I wouldn't be surprised if that raised a few eyebrows and made people wonder about me a little bit. We are judged by the company we keep after all.

 

I understand where you are coming from. I should have clarified, as we have been chatting throughout this outside of this thread.

 

Hado did the right thing based on what he knew. As he started noticing some of the statements made by Solarcadet (including admitting to lying to make someone feel bad that he was conducting a deal with), I believe he came to realize this is going to be a longer haul. And that doesn't mean he betrayed his friend.

 

But no - if the good friend of a known major infraction candidate fought for him, knowing clearly what he/she did - I wouldn't cheer them on for being a good friend. Hado was in a different situation.

 

[jaybuck43]

A few months back I proposed a middle ground list, basically where multiple offenders would live. If you were a multiple offender then you would be on that list indefinitely. It would not prevent you from being able to buy or sell BUT you would have a scarlet letter attached to you. There would be a forum letter similar to Arch's that the offendee would be required to post in any sales thread (Something along the lines of "I am currently on the Scarlet Letter list because I have had multiple infractions in the past and have not been a trustworthy buyer/seller" ) This would allow buyers/sellers the opportunity to know that this person has problems and may want to rethink buying/selling from them. Also people would not be able to nominate them for PL so it is kind of a "Buyer/Seller beware" act but they could still be nominated for HoS. Obviously this idea would need a lot of input and shaping from the rest of the community but it was just an idea.

[Logan510]

I don't know if I can agree with this. if I were "friends" with ComicSupply and came on here trying to get him removed from the HoS, I wouldn't be surprised if that raised a few eyebrows and made people wonder about me a little bit. We are judged by the company we keep after all.

 

I understand where you are coming from. I should have clarified, as we have been chatting throughout this outside of this thread.

 

Hado did the right thing based on what he knew. As he started noticing some of the statements made by Solarcadet (including admitting to lying to make someone feel bad that he was conducting a deal with), I believe he came to realize this is going to be a longer haul. And that doesn't mean he betrayed his friend.

 

But no - if the good friend of a known major infraction candidate fought for him, knowing clearly what he/she did - I wouldn't cheer them on for being a good friend. Hado was in a different situation.

 

 

Is ignorance a good excuse? I dunno

[Bosco685]

A few months back I proposed a middle ground list, basically where multiple offenders would live. If you were a multiple offender then you would be on that list indefinitely. It would not prevent you from being able to buy or sell BUT you would have a scarlet letter attached to you. There would be a forum letter similar to Arch's that the offendee would be required to post in any sales thread (Something along the lines of "I am currently on the Scarlet Letter list because I have had multiple infractions in the past and have not been a trustworthy buyer/seller" ) This would allow buyers/sellers the opportunity to know that this person has problems and may want to rethink buying/selling from them. Also people would not be able to nominate them for PL so it is kind of a "Buyer/Seller beware" act but they could still be nominated for HoS. Obviously this idea would need a lot of input and shaping from the rest of the community but it was just an idea.

This idea of a separate list seems to come up ever few years. It has been talked about before, and previously people thought it would get too confusing.

 

Clear guidelines need to be provided to distinguish between the PL, Perma-Purgatory and HOS. But I don't see Arch/CCGmod0/etc. supporting a mark on someone's profile to indicate they are "other".

[jaybuck43]

O no, nothing related to the profile. It would be the same as the Arch guidelines we have for the marketplace now. If someone is on the Perma-purgatory list and doesn't post the reminder, a member of the community can politly post "As a reminder, jaybuck43 is a member of the Perma Purgatory and is required to post "I am currently on the Scarlet Letter list because I have had multiple infractions in the past and have not been a trustworthy buyer/seller" whenever s/he is purchasing or selling"