PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[N/A]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

 

New sales thread?

 

No, you can't.

[wombat]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

 

New sales thread?

 

No, you can't.

 

[HarveySwick]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

What if a seller puts a time frame for returns? Not just a "no returns accepted."

[crassus]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

 

New sales thread?

 

No, you can't.

 

Why not? "All sales are final" Here is where we get back to what is implied in a sale. Books offered up are always assumed to be non restored. Books turn out to be restored. No promises were made, all sales were declared final. If you bought anyway, presumably, too bad. Does that not follow?

[wombat]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

What if a seller puts a time frame for returns? Not just a "no returns accepted."

 

Same question. What would happen today if I say no returns under any circumstances after 30 days and send the wrong book? If the buyer comes here on day 31 and says I just noticed and the seller won't take it back what would happen?

[N/A]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

 

New sales thread?

 

No, you can't.

 

Why not? "All sales are final" Here is where we get back to what is implied in a sale. Books offered up are always assumed to be non restored. Books turn out to be restored. No promises were made, all sales were declared final. If you bought anyway, presumably, too bad. Does that not follow?

 

The seller does not make any claims. I also did not believe in assuming a book is not restored. If a seller states "as-is, no returns" then the buyer best ask questions and not assume. Believing a book is not restored unless stated is NOT a board rule.

[HarveySwick]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

What if a seller puts a time frame for returns? Not just a "no returns accepted."

 

Same question. What would happen today if I say no returns under any circumstances after 30 days and send the wrong book? If the buyer comes here on day 31 and says I just noticed and the seller won't take it back what would happen?

 

Then the buyer would be out. Why didn't he inspect the book for 30 days knowing that was the seller's policy? And if the community decided on x amount of days and a seller had an express return policy < than the community decided return policy, I wouldn't be buying from that seller.

[wombat]

Maybe I'm thinking of it too simplistically, but I see it as only being a time limit on the back end for nominating someone for the PL. Let's say it is a year. It would simply be a matter of any nomination made after that was invalid.

[N/A]

Maybe I'm thinking of it too simplistically, but I see it as only being a time limit on the back end for nominating someone for the PL. Let's say it is a year. It would simply be a matter of any nomination made after that was invalid.

 

But is welcome to be discussed. The buyer can until the cows come home but no PL addition. At some point the buyer needs to take some responsibility and a transactions needs to be seen as complete.

[crassus]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

What if a seller puts a time frame for returns? Not just a "no returns accepted."

 

Same question. What would happen today if I say no returns under any circumstances after 30 days and send the wrong book? If the buyer comes here on day 31 and says I just noticed and the seller won't take it back what would happen?

 

Then the buyer would be out. Why didn't he inspect the book for 30 days knowing that was the seller's policy? And if the community decided on x amount of days and a seller had an express return policy < than the community decided return policy, I wouldn't be buying from that seller.

 

I am confused here. My assumption is that if the wrong item is sent than it is an incomplete transaction, that is the same as sending an empty box, and no "rules of sale" ever permit theft.

 

If he purchases an ASM 129 and I send him a Time magazine, that is the same as an empty box full of newspapers, and unless fixed, is theft.

 

Here is a good example, there could be any number of reasons why the buyer did not examine the contents, he or she was on vacation, the postal service had screwed up, etc.

[N/A]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

What if a seller puts a time frame for returns? Not just a "no returns accepted."

 

Same question. What would happen today if I say no returns under any circumstances after 30 days and send the wrong book? If the buyer comes here on day 31 and says I just noticed and the seller won't take it back what would happen?

 

Then the buyer would be out. Why didn't he inspect the book for 30 days knowing that was the seller's policy? And if the community decided on x amount of days and a seller had an express return policy < than the community decided return policy, I wouldn't be buying from that seller.

 

I am confused here. My assumption is that if the wrong item is sent than it is an incomplete transaction, that is the same as sending an empty box, and no "rules of sale" ever permit theft.

 

If he purchases an ASM 129 and I send him a Time magazine, that is the same as an empty box full of newspapers, and unless fixed, is theft.

 

Here is a good example, there could be any number of reasons why the buyer did not examine the contents, he or she was on vacation, the postal service had screwed up, etc.

 

So, for you, at what point is there no excuse for the buyer not opening the box?

[N/A]

And I imagine the clock would start when the item is received, not sent.

[HarveySwick]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

What if a seller puts a time frame for returns? Not just a "no returns accepted."

 

Same question. What would happen today if I say no returns under any circumstances after 30 days and send the wrong book? If the buyer comes here on day 31 and says I just noticed and the seller won't take it back what would happen?

 

Then the buyer would be out. Why didn't he inspect the book for 30 days knowing that was the seller's policy? And if the community decided on x amount of days and a seller had an express return policy < than the community decided return policy, I wouldn't be buying from that seller.

 

I am confused here. My assumption is that if the wrong item is sent than it is an incomplete transaction, that is the same as sending an empty box, and no "rules of sale" ever permit theft.

 

If he purchases an ASM 129 and I send him a Time magazine, that is the same as an empty box full of newspapers, and unless fixed, is theft.

 

Here is a good example, there could be any number of reasons why the buyer did not examine the contents, he or she was on vacation, the postal service had screwed up, etc.

 

There's obviously some level of common sense required.

 

I mean if someone is selling an ASM 129 with a 30 day return period and they send a ASM 129 that has color touch that the buyer doesn't notice until they inspect on Day 40, that is one thing.

 

It should go without saying that a seller can NOT say "no returns accepted under any condition" and list an ASM 129 and send a Time Magazine. That's blatant fraud and has landed some on the HOS.

[crassus]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?

 

What if a seller puts a time frame for returns? Not just a "no returns accepted."

 

Same question. What would happen today if I say no returns under any circumstances after 30 days and send the wrong book? If the buyer comes here on day 31 and says I just noticed and the seller won't take it back what would happen?

 

Then the buyer would be out. Why didn't he inspect the book for 30 days knowing that was the seller's policy? And if the community decided on x amount of days and a seller had an express return policy < than the community decided return policy, I wouldn't be buying from that seller.

 

I am confused here. My assumption is that if the wrong item is sent than it is an incomplete transaction, that is the same as sending an empty box, and no "rules of sale" ever permit theft.

 

If he purchases an ASM 129 and I send him a Time magazine, that is the same as an empty box full of newspapers, and unless fixed, is theft.

 

Here is a good example, there could be any number of reasons why the buyer did not examine the contents, he or she was on vacation, the postal service had screwed up, etc.

 

So, for you, at what point is there no excuse for the buyer not opening the box?

 

Fair question. I saw this example as based on 30 days. My point is not that it would be normal, only that it is conceivable. I have had experiences where I have sent packages, which tracking has shown delivered, and for various reasons it has been several weeks before the recipient actually opened the box and verified the contents. In the last such example the reason was travel mixed with illness. So my box sat for a while before it was opened. It is not the norm, granted, but it is not unusual either.

 

I saw this example as being about the relative weight given to a seller's rules. The example given used 30 days. A seller cannot make rules that absolves them of all responsibility to fulfill a clear and manifest obligation. Even if the package was not opened within 30 days, it does not void responsibility. If the box had sat in a storage facility because the recipient was in a coma, it would not absolve the seller of responsibility if he had mailed a box full of newspapers rather than the book he had contracted to ship.

[crassus]

There's obviously some level of common sense required.

 

I mean if someone is selling an ASM 129 with a 30 day return period and they send a ASM 129 that has color touch that the buyer doesn't notice until they inspect on Day 40, that is one thing.

 

It should go without saying (apparently I should have said it) that a seller can NOT say "no returns accepted under any condition" and list an ASM 129 and send a Time Magazine. That's blatant fraud and has landed some on the HOS.

 

(thumbs u yes exactly, that was all I was reacting to.

[HarveySwick]

I edited out the "apparently I should have said it" because I didn't want you to feel like that was directed towards you or really anyone in particular.

 

I'm tired and it was a long day. I don't even know why we're arguing all of this and Rupp and mikeegg are absent from the discussion.

[jsilverjanet]

You guys are getting close....

 

[Bio-Rupp]

I'm here Harvey

 

And the fact that technically the nominated party never came to this thread and presented any argument against the nomination is ignored?

 

If the person nominating has no right to do so then why would there need to be a response?

 

I understand your position and empathize with your take on this. Why not look at it from another angle...

 

I personally feel I have the right to protect my fellow buyers and sellers here. I've dealt with most people active on the boards in one capacity or another via both buying and selling... so I have a vested interest to keep this place safe.

 

No amount of time is going to change the fact that a seller advertised a book with no restoration and the book the buyer received had a completely different cover married to it. We also can't change the fact that one year's worth of PMs concerning this issue were read by the seller and left unanswered and unaddressed.

 

The PL list is basically my only means to protect others concerning questionable transactions. Until Mike contacts me concerning a resolution to this, I would hope the nomination stands because there should be no time frame concerning the protection of others

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

 

 

 

[bcphillips119]

Benjamin Grimm charity thread

 

Looks like bcphillips119 and jump_ace also made purchases. I wonder if anyone got their books?

 

Nope, I have not received my book either ... I included Shark on a PM with Benjamin and I when I initially made the PM.

[HarveySwick]