PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[wombat]

So what if someone says I guarantee no resto and I have a 30 day return policy?

 

Then you got 30 days to figure it out.

 

So a return policy can trump a guarantee. Never thought about it like that.

[N/A]

So what if someone says I guarantee no resto and I have a 30 day return policy?

 

Then you got 30 days to figure it out.

 

So a return policy can trump a guarantee. Never thought about it like that.

 

Not really and good sellers would work with you.

[Dr Chaos]

I'm confused again. Please tell me that we are limiting our debate to situations where the seller didn't explicitly specify a return policy...it is only in that case where we have to debate what is "reasonable," right?

 

In other words, do we agree that if (1) a seller states a return policy, (2) a buyer buys a book under those stated terms, (3) seller delivers the agreed upon book to the buyer, and (4) the buyer, for whatever reason, does not return the book for a refund within that stated return window, then there is no entitlement to a refund, and no basis for a PL nomination. Right?

 

 

If the seller states "as is" or specifies how cases of incomplete books or restoration will be handled (example - "as far as I know these books are complete and are not restored but will take returns for up to 30 days in the case of restoration") the buyer knows what they are walking into.

 

Otherwise we are talking about what a reasonable buyer could expect which means that the books are assumed to be unrestored and complete since the seller has not made any disclosure. In this case the return policy (one week, 30 days, etc.) would not apply to these books as they seller failed to make notice of the impairments or disclaim responsibility beyond a certain time-frame.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Dr Chaos

[EC ed]

So a return policy can trump a guarantee. Never thought about it like that.

Could be. The devil is in the details. This sort of confusion is why terms of sale out there in the real world are paragraphs long in 2 pt. font. If you're a seller and you don't spell out the details, look out.

 

If a seller says "as-is, no returns"...then there is a zero-day return policy and no guarantees.

 

If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 30 days, or within 6 months for undisclosed restoration", then that's pretty clear, right?

 

If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 6 months", that's yet another clear policy.

 

I could keep going with this, but you get the point. Seller has the opportunity to set terms. If the seller wants a higher likelihood of selling a book, they'll offer more liberal terms. If a buyer isn't comfortable with whatever the terms are, don't buy, or try to negotiate the terms just like you do with price.

 

Where we wind up with issues is when the seller doesn't set clear terms and something goes bad....and, lack of clarity can arise unintentionally. In your example, if a seller says "I guarantee no restoration, and you can return the book within 30 days," I'm not sure what that means. Is it a 30 day return policy for any reason with a lifetime guarantee against restoration, or a 30-day return policy including restoration issues? It's that word guarantee that's tricky. Does it mean the same thing to say "as far as I know the book is unrestored, and you can return the book within 30 days?" Use your language carefully, sellers!

[EC ed]

Our case in point here with Rupp is even worse...seller said something like "no restoration" without mentioning a return window at all...which leads us to our current debate. Does that mean a lifetime guarantee against restoration and an unlimited return window? That's what I see as the debate in Rupp's case. Unfortunately for the seller (and, perhaps, fortunately for Rupp), it's the seller's failure to be clear that prevents him from shutting the door on this transaction.

[comix4fun]

A board exclusive... Lifetime Color Touch Guarantees!

 

 

Was color touch at the center of this particular kerfuffle?

 

I thought there was a list of issues with that book.

 

True, I think there was something about the staple as well, but not to beat a dead donkey but how many years does a buyer have to notice or discover these issues? I truly have yet to see an answer and that is why I keep asking. Is it truly case by case no matter how many years pass?

 

 

 

I think everyone would have been in agreement that it's Way WAY WAYYYYY too long if the buyer asked for a full refund, but when he came to the table with a very reasonable request for grading and shipping costs. It was hard to deny that the seller should stand behind his claim of "no resto" when the buyer sold the book at a loss and what he's asking for as compensation leaves him still at a loss on the book.

 

Honestly, the request for less than 20% of the sales price as compensation for a book with MAJOR restoration issues, was so reasonable that it's hard to simply slam the door because it was discovered a year later. The buyer's taken a ton of the blame and financial burden on himself as he should have.

 

Given how equitable the request is and how blanket the original no resto claim was it's hard to answer an equitable request with inequity.

 

This is the same as not listening to a PL nomination for anything less than $x for me. The amount, however reasonable, is not the point. At some point the transaction is complete.

 

Rupp's request is VERY reasonable but it is way overdue.

Lord help us all, but I agree with this Donkey. The amount of money isn't at issue.

 

 

I thought it was proportionality of responsibility and not amount of money.

 

And, yes, a transaction should at some point be closed.

 

At the same time the doors of equity should remain open as long as possible.

[comix4fun]

So what if someone says I guarantee no resto and I have a 30 day return policy?

 

 

Two equal terms. If the former can't reasonably be discovered within the time frame of the latter then returns are deemed closed for all reasons but for resto discovered within a reasonable time frame (given that the 30 day window is not reasonable).

[DR.X]

I thought it was proportionality of responsibility and not amount of money. And, yes, a transaction should at some point be closed.

 

 

+1

 

But at what point? Buyers on these boards regardless of this situation have to take some responsibility to look books over themselves. If there are concerns they can certainly be brought to the attention of people in the grading forum and get opinions.

 

If a book is floating in limbo for 6 months to a year, it can be subject to alot of things. Maybe not the case here but there has to be some time limit IMO.

[DougC]

As someone who doesn't sell very much on these forums; I am practically mortified by those who think a full year should be conceived as a time limit for return of a book. I believe a lot of people are confusing a conducted deal for a book and what their intended use for said book is.

 

I have always thought that three months was a tidy amount of time for a buyer to look over a book, have a second opinion if they find something odd and contact the seller with any complaints. What was purchased was a book not the time it takes a seller to find additional books for pressing and submission; that should not even be considered. I do not understand the idea or excuse of "CGC takes a long time to grade" that was never part of any deal struck between buyer and seller.

 

If a buyer wishes to submit a book they are sold to CGC that is solely the choice of the buyer. There are many other companies that can do restoration checks; it seems a point of contention is that everything is based on a buyer who never wants to have any responsibility for a book they purchased at any point in the process of ownership for the lifetime of the book.

[Dr Chaos]

So what if someone says I guarantee no resto and I have a 30 day return policy?

 

 

Two equal terms. If the former can't reasonably be discovered within the time frame of the latter then returns are deemed closed for all reasons but for resto discovered within a reasonable time frame (given that the 30 day window is not reasonable).

 

While such a policy would provide a red flag to the buyer it would open the door to sellers knowingly selling restored books in hopes that the 30 day window will get them off the hook.

[N/A]

As someone who doesn't sell very much on these forums; I am practically mortified by those who think a full year should be conceived as a time limit for return of a book. I believe a lot of people are confusing a conducted deal for a book and what their intended use for said book is.

 

I have always thought that three months was a tidy amount of time for a buyer to look over a book, have a second opinion if they find something odd and contact the seller with any complaints. What was purchased was a book not the time it takes a seller to find additional books for pressing and submission; that should not even be considered. I do not understand the idea or excuse of "CGC takes a long time to grade" that was never part of any deal struck between buyer and seller.

 

If a buyer wishes to submit a book they are sold to CGC that is solely the choice of the buyer. There are many other companies that can do restoration checks; it seems a point of contention is that everything is based on a buyer who never wants to have any responsibility for a book they purchased at any point in the process of ownership for the lifetime of the book.

 

I completely agree and I believe my formula was 60 days plus the longest CGC turn around time. The latter simply because we are on the CGC boards. I rounded off to a year in hopes of getting a general consensus and a starting point. You can see I'm getting pushback even at a year.

 

The year is a hard deadline suggestion for PL nominations.

[Iceman399]

I think there are several issues all being discussed as if they are the same thing:

 

-Returns of a product

Some sellers offer a no question return for a period of X.

 

-Return of a product not as described

Missing coupon, blatent resto

 

-PL/HOS effective timeline

How long ago does a transaction still qualify to be added to the PL/HOS list. I know some have retroactively put ppls on when they join the boards for ebay or such shenanigans.

[Columbia Comics]

A good seller/dealer doesn't need to advertise a return policy. B/c everyone knows they have one and it's rock solid.

 

Look at Storms....solid as they come. I model my policy after his.

[Iceman399]

A good seller/dealer doesn't need to advertise a return policy. B/c everyone knows they have one and it's rock solid.

 

Look at Storms....solid as they come. I model my policy after his.

 

Often seldom seems to be good sellers/dealers being nominated

[EC ed]

A good seller/dealer doesn't need to advertise a return policy. B/c everyone knows they have one and it's rock solid.

 

Look at Storms....solid as they come. I model my policy after his.

 

I've been interested in hearing the perspective of some dealers on this matter.

 

I quote, from your website:

 

Returns

Columbia Comics offers a 10 day return policy on all items sold. The items must be returned in the same condition as they were received and the buyer must pay any associated return shipping cost.

 

In the event that Columbia Comics makes an error, we will cover any associated return shipping costs.

 

Given what it says there, how would you handle a request from a customer on your website for a return/refund one year after date of purchase?

[EC ed]

Or, I wonder how, for example, mycomicshop would handle it, given this stated 7 day return policy:

 

If you believe we have overgraded a comic

 

Comics graded by CGC, CBCS, and PGX are not returnable. All other comics may be returned for a refund if we are notified via email (customerservice@mycomicshop.com), or by phone (817-860-7827) within seven days of of receipt. Returns must be received at our office within two weeks of original delivery date (Canadian three weeks, international one month). Basic ground postage will be refunded on any books deemed to have been misgraded.

 

Edit:

 

Bob Storms actually distinguishes between normal returns and his restoration guarantee (lifetime, including CGC certification errors ):

 

You have seven (7) days from receipt of the book(s) to return them if you are not satisfied so long as the book(s) is returned in the same condition as it was sent. All CGC sales are final UNLESS I did not disclose that there were date stamps or writing on the book. If you disagree with how CGC graded the book that doesn't qualify you to send it back.

 

Highgradecomics.com has ALWAYS had a NO time limit guarantee that your money would be refunded in the event a book comes back restored. We will now take the further step of extending this to CGC graded books as well. Any book, sold in an unrestored CGC holder by Highgradecomics.com that is later determined by CGC to actually contain restoration not discovered in the previous certification, will be fully refundable. This policy will be retroactive to any CGC books sold by Highgradecomics.com in the past. No if and or buts.

Edited June 12, 2015 by edowens71

[PovertyRow]

Arch has made a thread solely for us to discuss changes to the PL/HOS rules:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8667940#Post8667940

 

This will free up this thread for its original intent: discussions of actual nominations to the PL/HOS.

 

I am seeding it with some of the basic concepts folks have been bringing up.

 

 

[Columbia Comics]

Given what it says there, how would you handle a request from a customer on your website for a return/refund one year after date of purchase?

 

One year after purchase? Generally speaking, I would say no returns.

 

However, it would depend on the reason for the return.

 

If I sold a raw book, since we're talking about raw books, and the book came back restored, qualified or whatever new color CGC decides to invent that makes my representation of the book false, then I would absolutely accept a return and would refund the price of the book plus any grading fees. I would not refund pressing fees.

 

I tend to avoid this by mainly selling graded books. But as we grow, so does our raw stock and let's face it, you cannot grade every book.

 

The tricky part occurs when you sell a book at a show. Online, there's an easy record. In person, unless you know the customer, could create an interesting problem.

[jimjum12]

As someone who doesn't sell very much on these forums; I am practically mortified by those who think a full year should be conceived as a time limit for return of a book. I believe a lot of people are confusing a conducted deal for a book and what their intended use for said book is.

 

I have always thought that three months was a tidy amount of time for a buyer to look over a book, have a second opinion if they find something odd and contact the seller with any complaints. What was purchased was a book not the time it takes a seller to find additional books for pressing and submission; that should not even be considered. I do not understand the idea or excuse of "CGC takes a long time to grade" that was never part of any deal struck between buyer and seller.

 

If a buyer wishes to submit a book they are sold to CGC that is solely the choice of the buyer. There are many other companies that can do restoration checks; it seems a point of contention is that everything is based on a buyer who never wants to have any responsibility for a book they purchased at any point in the process of ownership for the lifetime of the book.

 

...... and there is also the pesky little detail that CGC does not even guarantee their own resto check.....and have missed the mark more than once. As for the PL nomination process...... I like the year timeframe, with a grace period for someone who didn't find this forum until after a year had elapsed. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[DEATHLOK9147]

I remember a couple years ago The very first book I bought i got took for my money. It took the guy a whole week to contact me, and when he did he said his dog ate my book. I couldn't believe it

Edited June 13, 2015 by DEATHLOK9147