PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Bio-Rupp]

well he's kinda funny...

 

[Speedy-D]

People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

 

 

 

The "legislative intent" of the probation list is to inform forum members of other forum members failing to live up to their promises or transactions.

 

It is also there to warn and hopefully prevent other forum members from being pulled into a transaction, unwittingly, with the same problem forum member.

 

Being stuck on the exact words of how people are added to the probation list is to be mired in the semantics of what's written instead of embracing the broader goal and purpose of the list, why it was instituted, and why it is necessary.

 

When you have one forum member, ripped off by another forum member, and a third forum member can give 1st hand testimony that it is fraudulent in nature and they both come onto this forum to speak about it they have made it the forum's business, they have brought the transaction to this forum.

 

So semantics means exactly what I think it means.

 

The list exists to help and prevent problems and fraud. It doesn't exist to preserve its specific language or WORSE to let its language stand in the way of clear and obvious fraud and warning our members of the same in order to protect themselves.

 

Would the word minutia be more to everyone's liking, being that they are now stuck on the semantics of the word semantics?

Word up!!!

My lord, just when you think you've heard something stated perfectly, you get hit with this and realize you had no idea what 'perfectly stated' could really mean!

[Speedy-D]

I votes yes.

 

"Off-Board transactions between Board Members"

 

+1

 

+1 kindas, but we don't need another list. If a transaction goes south between two boardies, it can be verified, and there's no resolution, just put them on the Probies List or HOS. You can throw an asterisk on off-board transactions if it'll make anyone feel better, but I see no reason to create a third list.

 

The probation list is for people who have screwed up but can still make good.

 

The HOS is for people who have screwed up and aren't going to get another chance.

 

Why do we need another category?

[Boozad]

Add as many shenanigans to the list as possible. It's a unique list, may as well inform each other as much as possible. But on the principal that people who nominate sellers from other veunes email them and link them to the thread. That would provide some serious entertainment.

 

And yes, there are plenty of boardies who use this place for buying and selling only.

[nocutename]

retracting my statement as I am being corrected. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[nocutename]

I apologize then if I am incorrect. I recalled reading that he dropped off two packages and you barely looked at them or didn't open them before he left.

 

I am still under the opinion that these boards didn't weigh in on your purchasing decision so it should not be argued here. I think it should be announced in Comics General and there are plenty of other threads regarding bad deals there that are searchable.

 

I truly hope that you receive a full refund.

 

Personally, I prefer not to have any discussions with you as they go no where IMO. You are twisting my words. He admitted to not looking at the book when he paid for it. I am just saying how do you fork over that my money without looking at the item.

 

The argument here which you are avoiding is whether or not Sagat belongs on the probation list or HOS. I am stating no because this was not a board transaction and furthermore, the boards had no influence on the purchase. Should he prosecute, I would in light of the new information but again that is not a board decision.

 

 

I just quickly reread your original post in PG section. To me you purchased the book based on knowing him from high school. It appears to me that Sagat being a a board member here didn't play a part in the purchasing decision. Now two years later rather than have a warning thread in CG, you are requesting him to be placed on the list because he is a member here.

 

I can see making justifications on transactions that are done off the boards based on the trust of a member here. But I don't see that being the case here. I feel for you and I wish that you get every penny back. I am sure that Sagat's selling days are over here regardless if he is on the list or not.

 

Just a few weeks back purchased a book with an undisclosed color touch. It was terribly done and I didn't catch it in the dim lighting of the LCS. Luckily I looked at it in my car and the spot was very apparent. The fact remains, while it sucks, you should have inspected the book before forking over that much money.

 

 

 

I am seriously hoping you are joking here or that you didn't read Andy "October"'s post about how SAGAT knew that the book was restored, was told to his face it was restored and them stated he was selling it on ebay anyway.

 

People are not allowed to make false claims about their product in order to induce a transaction. There are several criminal statutes built around that concept.

 

Are you REALLY blaming the victim here? Really?

 

They are all members here, including the eye witnesses. Who gives a flying fig about WHY Twisty bought the book from him? The fraudulent description is the core issue here.

 

Because he didn't rely on knowing him from the boards before buying? Really? That's what you are standing on? That's more important than outright fraud?

 

How can you possibly blame Twisty when you have independent 3rd party testimony from an established and respected board member that SAGAT knew for a fact the book was restored and sold it as un-restored?

If you want to stick you head in the sand and ignore what SAGAT did to Twisty that is your choice. The rest of us seem to prefer knowing when something like this happens, protecting ourselves and protecting each other.

 

I never said I did not look at the book when he dropped it off? I'm trying to stay out of this and not sway anyone's opinions and just lay out the facts but you keep missing them. I said I am no expert at detecting restoration, as I had not really been collecting for some time and had never seen a restored book at the time of the transaction. This is when I asked him if it was. What I did admit to was being naive and not knowing what a "badly restored" book would look like and taking his word on it alone. Hope this helps.

[comicdonna]

I votes yes.

 

"Off-Board transactions between Board Members"

 

+1

 

+1 kindas, but we don't need another list. If a transaction goes south between two boardies, it can be verified, and there's no resolution, just put them on the Probies List or HOS. You can throw an asterisk on off-board transactions if it'll make anyone feel better, but I see no reason to create a third list.

 

The probation list is for people who have screwed up but can still make good.

 

The HOS is for people who have screwed up and aren't going to get another chance.

 

Why do we need another category?

I don't know why we need another catagory either. In a case like this, we always have a discussion before adding anyone to either the PL or HOS. If it makes people feel better, we could make changes to the "rules" that would allow transactions between board members that took place outside of the boards to be included in the 2 current lists.

[nocutename]

Finally, I am going to say this about these lists. I had put together a reoccuring offender list for myself and shared them with the board. The list was included in the probation list but eventually fell off. Why? If I recall correctly, it was thought of to be in bad taste and that ever member should have a chance to redeem themselves without having it hanging over their head.

[mikenyc]

The more disconcerting issue, for me, is that there are well respected sellers who sell to probation list and HOS members. These are people who screwed over other members, on these boards, not in a fifth grade game of marbles, and were placed on the list. Yet for the almighty dollar these sellers will continue to do business with them, hoping I guess that they won't be the unfortunate one to be hurt.

 

That is pretty

 

It is but some are here to sell comics and the community is secondary.

 

Can I ask where this blanket statement comes from? 1) I don't know of anyone selling to HOS members. 2) to say, if you are referring to me, that selling comics comes first and the community comes second, I suggest you take a look at the entire body of what I've done here.

 

This is specifically why I defended clobberintime -- this is the half cocked way in which some people decide to take their holier than thou positions about right and wrong.

 

Finally, on the issue of SAGAT, I think there's very clear evidence that he knowingly sold a restored book as unrestored. What list he ought to go on is irrelevant to me, except that people should be informed. If that means the HOS, so be it.

 

I purposefully didn't mention any names so as to not offend anyone publicly. If you feel that I was referring to you and you bring up the fact the you do sell to probation list members, that was not my intention.

 

I wasn't half cocked, I was full on Viagra engorged cocked. The list exists to let other members know of naughty behaviors of naughty members. Why is Sagat different than any other probation member. Does the offense that gets one placed on the list vary by degree of naughtiness? Is it worse to sell a restored book as unrestored, or take payment and not deliver the book. What about throwing up and causing a seller to lose out on other offers while waiting for payment? I don't know enough to make that distinction so I avoid list members. This is not a gray area, you are on the list for screwing someone over. I don't want to deal with you, ever.

 

I'm not holier than anyone, and I also didn't minamilize your contributions to these boards, as being a newer member I wouldn't feel qualified to make that judgement. I'm not looking for a contest, you are a well respected member of the boards who I'm sure is a good guy, and I usually can't afford your books anyway::

 

[PovertyRow]

I votes yes.

 

"Off-Board transactions between Board Members"

 

+1

 

+1 kindas, but we don't need another list. If a transaction goes south between two boardies, it can be verified, and there's no resolution, just put them on the Probies List or HOS. You can throw an asterisk on off-board transactions if it'll make anyone feel better, but I see no reason to create a third list.

 

The probation list is for people who have screwed up but can still make good.

 

The HOS is for people who have screwed up and aren't going to get another chance.

 

Why do we need another category?

I don't know why we need another catagory either. In a case like this, we always have a discussion before adding anyone to either the PL or HOS. If it makes people feel better, we could make changes to the "rules" that would allow transactions between board members that took place outside of the boards to be included in the 2 current lists.

 

I don't know. Why don't we just have a single COMICS forum instead of GA, SA, etc. OK - that was ludicrous but it's me.

 

It is not a matter of "if it makes people feel better, we could make changes to the "rules..." That's fairly condescending.

 

The "rules" have been used many times to keep a boardie off the PL when the transgression was Off Board. I'm surprised some people are acting like that is something new. It has been going on for a LONG time.

 

I also don't get the idea that a 3rd category "Off Board" is such a seemingly complex, convoluted thing. It's all on the same list. Personally I would like to know if the shenanigaqns are off-board, on-board or even both. But that's not the key thing.

 

The key thing is that the rules need to be changed to seamlessly include off-board transactions where buyer and seller are Boardies. A reference, either via a different title on the same list, or an "Off Board" notation next to the name would be good to have.

 

The Off Board notation could also include a relevant ID such as an ebay ID that is not used on the boards.

[Foolkiller]

The more disconcerting issue, for me, is that there are well respected sellers who sell to probation list and HOS members. These are people who screwed over other members, on these boards, not in a fifth grade game of marbles, and were placed on the list. Yet for the almighty dollar these sellers will continue to do business with them, hoping I guess that they won't be the unfortunate one to be hurt.

 

That is pretty

 

It is but some are here to sell comics and the community is secondary.

 

Can I ask where this blanket statement comes from? 1) I don't know of anyone selling to HOS members. 2) to say, if you are referring to me, that selling comics comes first and the community comes second, I suggest you take a look at the entire body of what I've done here.

 

This is specifically why I defended clobberintime -- this is the half cocked way in which some people decide to take their holier than thou positions about right and wrong.

 

Finally, on the issue of SAGAT, I think there's very clear evidence that he knowingly sold a restored book as unrestored. What list he ought to go on is irrelevant to me, except that people should be informed. If that means the HOS, so be it.

 

I purposefully didn't mention any names so as to not offend anyone publicly. If you feel that I was referring to you and you bring up the fact the you do sell to probation list members, that was not my intention.

 

I wasn't half cocked, I was full on Viagra engorged cocked. The list exists to let other members know of naughty behaviors of naughty members. Why is Sagat different than any other probation member. Does the offense that gets one placed on the list vary by degree of naughtiness? Is it worse to sell a restored book as unrestored, or take payment and not deliver the book. What about throwing up and causing a seller to lose out on other offers while waiting for payment? I don't know enough to make that distinction so I avoid list members. This is not a gray area, you are on the list for screwing someone over. I don't want to deal with you, ever.

 

I'm not holier than anyone, and I also didn't minamilize your contributions to these boards, as being a newer member I wouldn't feel qualified to make that judgement. I'm not looking for a contest, you are a well respected member of the boards who I'm sure is a good guy, and I usually can't afford your books anyway::

 

I don't really want to detract from the ongoing discussion about Sagat, but there is a difference and there's also a difference in terms of who the person is. Look, I have never, and will never, condone clobberintime treating Nick the way he did. But my relationship with him extends over several years here, discussions about other matters, and a general pattern of him -- for the most part -- always fulfilling his obligations.

 

For me, i make a case by case determination. Not everyone deserves to be treated the same by every buyer. It isn't about the money, because he's never spent a lot with me. Every other member of the list, has issues that I think were very clear or that I had no reason to dispute because of some past experience.

 

The probation list is not always clearly black and white about how we act moving forward, and I am simply putting out there the fact that many folks sell to folks on the probation list, but have their own reasons.

[comicdonna]

Based on the 2 polls, most everyone is in agreement that transactions between board members that take place outside of the boards, should be allowed on a list. Also, Sagat should be on this list. It would seem, that the next step would be to decide if it should be a seperate list or added to the current ones.

[PovertyRow]

Based on the 2 polls, most everyone is in agreement that transactions between board members that take place outside of the boards, should be allowed on a list. Also, Sagat should be on this list. It would seem, that the next step would be to decide if it should be a seperate list or added to the current ones.

 

Actually, adding to the existing list makes as much sense as a separate one. I have updated the Probation List, added a notation about "Off-Board" and added SAGAT.

 

If there are issues with this please take them up here and not on the formal Probation List thread! I thank you.

[PovertyRow]

OK - first I forgot to remove my sig. Reposted. Then forgot to change the Update Notation in Green. Reposted. THEN forgot to change the list's Date. Reposted.

 

This is my first attempt. Please check it out and let me know if I missed anything else.

[Twistty1]

OK - first I forgot to remove my sig. Reposted. Then forgot to change the Update Notation in Green. Reposted. THEN forgot to change the list's Date. Reposted.

 

This is my first attempt. Please check it out and let me know if I missed anything else.

 

Looks good, I appreciate you doing that. (thumbs u The only thing I did notice was that it doesn't state SAGAT's ebay ID. SAGAT = Miffybunny

[PovertyRow]

OK - first I forgot to remove my sig. Reposted. Then forgot to change the Update Notation in Green. Reposted. THEN forgot to change the list's Date. Reposted.

 

This is my first attempt. Please check it out and let me know if I missed anything else.

 

Looks good, I appreciate you doing that. (thumbs u The only thing I did notice was that it doesn't state SAGAT's ebay ID. SAGAT = Miffybunny

 

Thanks - I missed that in the discussion.

[thehumantorch]

The more disconcerting issue, for me, is that there are well respected sellers who sell to probation list and HOS members. These are people who screwed over other members, on these boards, not in a fifth grade game of marbles, and were placed on the list. Yet for the almighty dollar these sellers will continue to do business with them, hoping I guess that they won't be the unfortunate one to be hurt.

 

That is pretty

 

It is but some are here to sell comics and the community is secondary.

 

Can I ask where this blanket statement comes from? 1) I don't know of anyone selling to HOS members. 2) to say, if you are referring to me, that selling comics comes first and the community comes second, I suggest you take a look at the entire body of what I've done here.

 

This is specifically why I defended clobberintime -- this is the half cocked way in which some people decide to take their holier than thou positions about right and wrong.

 

Finally, on the issue of SAGAT, I think there's very clear evidence that he knowingly sold a restored book as unrestored. What list he ought to go on is irrelevant to me, except that people should be informed. If that means the HOS, so be it.

 

It was just a blanket statement and I wasn't thinking of you when I typed it. Your thread last year about trustworthy/untrustworthy dealers was one of the most interesting and honest threads I've read and your contributions to the board are important. Brian, I'm a fan of yours and wish we had many more members like you.

 

I was thinking of clobberintime and other probation list members who have stated that they've had no problems buying while on the probation list when I made my statement. It really rubs me the wrong way when dishonest people buy and sell here with impunity and rub our noses in it.

 

 

[Dano]

The more disconcerting issue, for me, is that there are well respected sellers who sell to probation list and HOS members. These are people who screwed over other members, on these boards, not in a fifth grade game of marbles, and were placed on the list. Yet for the almighty dollar these sellers will continue to do business with them, hoping I guess that they won't be the unfortunate one to be hurt.

 

That is pretty

 

It is but some are here to sell comics and the community is secondary.

 

Can I ask where this blanket statement comes from? 1) I don't know of anyone selling to HOS members. 2) to say, if you are referring to me, that selling comics comes first and the community comes second, I suggest you take a look at the entire body of what I've done here.

 

This is specifically why I defended clobberintime -- this is the half cocked way in which some people decide to take their holier than thou positions about right and wrong.

 

Finally, on the issue of SAGAT, I think there's very clear evidence that he knowingly sold a restored book as unrestored. What list he ought to go on is irrelevant to me, except that people should be informed. If that means the HOS, so be it.

 

I purposefully didn't mention any names so as to not offend anyone publicly. If you feel that I was referring to you and you bring up the fact the you do sell to probation list members, that was not my intention.

 

I wasn't half cocked, I was full on Viagra engorged cocked. The list exists to let other members know of naughty behaviors of naughty members. Why is Sagat different than any other probation member. Does the offense that gets one placed on the list vary by degree of naughtiness? Is it worse to sell a restored book as unrestored, or take payment and not deliver the book. What about throwing up and causing a seller to lose out on other offers while waiting for payment? I don't know enough to make that distinction so I avoid list members. This is not a gray area, you are on the list for screwing someone over. I don't want to deal with you, ever.

 

I'm not holier than anyone, and I also didn't minamilize your contributions to these boards, as being a newer member I wouldn't feel qualified to make that judgement. I'm not looking for a contest, you are a well respected member of the boards who I'm sure is a good guy, and I usually can't afford your books anyway::

 

I don't really want to detract from the ongoing discussion about Sagat, but there is a difference and there's also a difference in terms of who the person is. Look, I have never, and will never, condone clobberintime treating Nick the way he did. But my relationship with him extends over several years here, discussions about other matters, and a general pattern of him -- for the most part -- always fulfilling his obligations.

 

For me, i make a case by case determination. Not everyone deserves to be treated the same by every buyer. It isn't about the money, because he's never spent a lot with me. Every other member of the list, has issues that I think were very clear or that I had no reason to dispute because of some past experience.

 

The probation list is not always clearly black and white about how we act moving forward, and I am simply putting out there the fact that many folks sell to folks on the probation list, but have their own reasons.

Yes.

 

Dan.

[8milemax]

Based on the 2 polls, most everyone is in agreement that transactions between board members that take place outside of the boards, should be allowed on a list. Also, Sagat should be on this list. It would seem, that the next step would be to decide if it should be a seperate list or added to the current ones.

 

Actually, adding to the existing list makes as much sense as a separate one. I have updated the Probation List, added a notation about "Off-Board" and added SAGAT.

 

If there are issues with this please take them up here and not on the formal Probation List thread! I thank you.

Was this transaction done before they were board members? Didn't he give twisty back some of the money to make up for it being restored? Edited April 30, 2011 by 8milemax

[comicdonna]

Based on the 2 polls, most everyone is in agreement that transactions between board members that take place outside of the boards, should be allowed on a list. Also, Sagat should be on this list. It would seem, that the next step would be to decide if it should be a seperate list or added to the current ones.

 

Actually, adding to the existing list makes as much sense as a separate one. I have updated the Probation List, added a notation about "Off-Board" and added SAGAT.

 

If there are issues with this please take them up here and not on the formal Probation List thread! I thank you.