PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[comix4fun]

I haven't weighed in on this thread before, but as this one seems to be swaying...imho of course, this is as cut and dried as can be. Terms were agreed upon. btw Columbia was that agreement on the part of the seller in writing or verbal? If verbal, it leaves a hole one can drive a truck through. If in writing, can you provide the quote? The caveats of agreement on grading and price are always present until books are in the hand. In reality, or my reality I guess, deals are always contingent - what the buyer's got locked up in no uncertain terms is right of first refusal at that price. What the seller's got locked up is the buyer's obligation to perform up to the point of inspection.

 

Andy

 

 

 

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if that "cash" payment contingency wasn't included. From what's recounted here I can't determine how material that was to the seller. With that removed and with shipping the books, taking alternative payment, and other changes to the deal made I don't know exactly where goes.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

So what happens if you disagreed with the stated grades?

 

Honestly I have no idea. It never got that far. When I asked if the books could be mailed, I was met with stone cold silence. Not a single word acknowledging that request.

 

To me this is the core of the problem. The deal was still being ironed out. I am troubled with the idea that someone is not allowed to change their mind (buyer or seller) before a solid deal is in place. Yes, it is a pain to take the time for negotiations and have nothing to show for it. But that does not make it PL worthy.

 

[Dr. Love]

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if that "cash" payment contingency wasn't included. From what's recounted here I can't determine how material that was to the seller. With that removed and with shipping the books, taking alternative payment, and other changes to the deal made I don't know exactly where goes.

 

Yes I see what you're saying. It is true that if a specific form of payment such as cash in the hand in a very specific time frame was a material consideration, then the deal would be off. But the listing of those books on the forum without those same considerations would tend to give lie to that. Additionally, if those were specific terms, the documentation would support that.

[Sqeggs]

I'm up in the air on this one. Sure would like to know the name of the seller, though.

[Columbia Comics]

I'm up in the air on this one. Sure would like to know the name of the seller, though.

 

Not quite ready to reveal the name. I don't want to come across as a "problem child" when all I'm seeking ATM is information and getting other opinions.

 

Even if I do reveal the name, I reserve the right to not nominate them. And even if I did nominate them, it may not receive enough votes to pass.

 

 

[Dr. Love]

To me this is the core of the problem. The deal was still being ironed out. I am troubled with the idea that someone is not allowed to change their mind (buyer or seller) before a solid deal is in place. Yes, it is a pain to take the time for negotiations and have nothing to show for it. But that does not make it PL worthy.

 

and I see what you're saying. The means of resolving the back end of the deal should there be a disagreement on grading is a critical part of the negotiation. One could take the view that the deal is still being negotiated until that aspect is finalized.

[Bio-Rupp]

"we had decided to meet in Charlotte at the airport during the layover"

 

Here is where it hurts and I can feel Brock's pain.

 

"we had decided"

 

The seller should have at least kept this appointment.

 

He could have then decided not to sell....which would have been just as much of a waste of Brock's time... but a least a little more stand-up-ish.

 

[Sqeggs]

I'm not saying this example is perfectly analogous, but consider the following: Someone lists a book for $800. You PM them with an offer of $600. They immediately PM you back accepting your offer. Then, a few minutes later, they PM you again saying, something like, "Thinking it over, I really need to get at least $675 for this book."

 

I've never been on either side of such an exchange, but I wouldn't think the seller should be placed on the PL for it. Seller's regret when the situation is one of a book being publicly listed for a price that the seller later refuses to sell at, is clearly PL worthy. But in other situations, I would be inclined as a buyer to just let it go, although I probably wouldn't deal with the seller again.

 

As I say, though, I'm not entirely sure about these situations.

[Dr. Love]

We're getting a little far afield, but since you're bringing it up, here's my .02. A second, a minute, a day...time period before remorse is irrelevant, unless the deal has a specific cooling off period. Likewise, public nature vs private. Likewise, a PM "I agree" vs a click of a button vs a post of a graphic.

 

What is in question is what moving parts of a deal are necessary to finalize before one can say "a deal has been struck" and which entitles parties. Clearly price is one aspect. In your example above, that part imho is done and done. Which doesn't mean we have a deal in total. There's manner of compensation, time element, right of return, etc., all to be agreed upon beforehand.

[mikenyc]

PL worthy, probably not.

 

Someone I want to deal with, certainly not.

 

This thread is worthless without naming the seller.

 

 

[crassus]

We're getting a little far afield, but since you're bringing it up, here's my .02. A second, a minute, a day...time period before remorse is irrelevant, unless the deal has a specific cooling off period. Likewise, public nature vs private. Likewise, a PM "I agree" vs a click of a button vs a post of a graphic.

 

What is in question is what moving parts of a deal are necessary to finalize before one can say "a deal has been struck" and which entitles parties. Clearly price is one aspect. In your example above, that part imho is done and done. Which doesn't mean we have a deal in total. There's manner of compensation, time element, right of return, etc., all to be agreed upon beforehand.

 

A very clear summation of the problem. For me, it is beyond believing that the seller was not bound to at the very least produce the books in a good faith way to attempt to complete the transaction.

 

Let's reverse this, and imagine it was the seller complaining about the buyer: "He made an offer which was accepted, he agreed to pay cash and meet at a given location, finally he said he'd changed his mind and didn't show."

 

As for the reasonable assumption that there must be some room for people to change their minds, respectfully, that room must be defined very very narrowly.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

We're getting a little far afield, but since you're bringing it up, here's my .02. A second, a minute, a day...time period before remorse is irrelevant, unless the deal has a specific cooling off period. Likewise, public nature vs private. Likewise, a PM "I agree" vs a click of a button vs a post of a graphic.

 

What is in question is what moving parts of a deal are necessary to finalize before one can say "a deal has been struck" and which entitles parties. Clearly price is one aspect. In your example above, that part imho is done and done. Which doesn't mean we have a deal in total. There's manner of compensation, time element, right of return, etc., all to be agreed upon beforehand.

 

A very clear summation of the problem. For me, it is beyond believing that the seller was not bound to at the very least produce the books in a good faith way to attempt to complete the transaction.

 

Let's reverse this, and imagine it was the seller complaining about the buyer: "He made an offer which was accepted, he agreed to pay cash and meet at a given location, finally he said he'd changed his mind and didn't show."

 

As for the reasonable assumption that there must be some room for people to change their minds, respectfully, that room must be defined very very narrowly.

 

 

Also respectfully, you are speaking in generalizations, which is certainly useful and is exactly what the PL Rules are: generalizations.

 

Here we have a very specific and rather unusual situation, though. I agree the room for mind changing must be defined narrowly ("very very" is a little overkill for a generalization ). But now we have a specific incident. In assessing this and the details outlined, I just do not feel a full deal was ever reached. Thus nothing to "violate".

 

But it IS very very troubling. I would certainly have no objection to knowing who the seller was.

[Iceman399]

We're getting a little far afield, but since you're bringing it up, here's my .02. A second, a minute, a day...time period before remorse is irrelevant, unless the deal has a specific cooling off period. Likewise, public nature vs private. Likewise, a PM "I agree" vs a click of a button vs a post of a graphic.

 

What is in question is what moving parts of a deal are necessary to finalize before one can say "a deal has been struck" and which entitles parties. Clearly price is one aspect. In your example above, that part imho is done and done. Which doesn't mean we have a deal in total. There's manner of compensation, time element, right of return, etc., all to be agreed upon beforehand.

 

A very clear summation of the problem. For me, it is beyond believing that the seller was not bound to at the very least produce the books in a good faith way to attempt to complete the transaction.

 

Let's reverse this, and imagine it was the seller complaining about the buyer: "He made an offer which was accepted, he agreed to pay cash and meet at a given location, finally he said he'd changed his mind and didn't show."

 

As for the reasonable assumption that there must be some room for people to change their minds, respectfully, that room must be defined very very narrowly.

 

 

Also respectfully, you are speaking in generalizations, which is certainly useful and is exactly what the PL Rules are: generalizations.

 

Here we have a very specific and rather unusual situation, though. I agree the room for mind changing must be defined narrowly ("very very" is a little overkill for a generalization ). But now we have a specific incident. In assessing this and the details outlined, I just do not feel a full deal was ever reached. Thus nothing to "violate".

 

But it IS very very troubling. I would certainly have no objection to knowing who the seller was.

 

I feel the opposite, if this was to take place on the boards directly through a sales thread it was:

 

Book A graded at 4.0

 

Price $Some amount of money,

 

Brock then posted pending scans (in this case seeing in hand).

 

Sorry realized I don't need to sell it that low.

[Dr. Love]

I too share a sense of frustration at the cloak of anonymity provided (at least so far) by Columbia's sense of honor and fair play. But I feel this thread doesn't have just a utilitarian function.

 

I think it is fascinating and informative. I am finding that ethics and civics policy considerations, conducted over time, publicly, using a fairly large diverse population, with real time concrete situations to serve as examples, are proving valuable to me in and of themselves. I didn't expect that.

[PovertyRow]

We're getting a little far afield, but since you're bringing it up, here's my .02. A second, a minute, a day...time period before remorse is irrelevant, unless the deal has a specific cooling off period. Likewise, public nature vs private. Likewise, a PM "I agree" vs a click of a button vs a post of a graphic.

 

What is in question is what moving parts of a deal are necessary to finalize before one can say "a deal has been struck" and which entitles parties. Clearly price is one aspect. In your example above, that part imho is done and done. Which doesn't mean we have a deal in total. There's manner of compensation, time element, right of return, etc., all to be agreed upon beforehand.

 

A very clear summation of the problem. For me, it is beyond believing that the seller was not bound to at the very least produce the books in a good faith way to attempt to complete the transaction.

 

Let's reverse this, and imagine it was the seller complaining about the buyer: "He made an offer which was accepted, he agreed to pay cash and meet at a given location, finally he said he'd changed his mind and didn't show."

 

As for the reasonable assumption that there must be some room for people to change their minds, respectfully, that room must be defined very very narrowly.

 

 

Also respectfully, you are speaking in generalizations, which is certainly useful and is exactly what the PL Rules are: generalizations.

 

Here we have a very specific and rather unusual situation, though. I agree the room for mind changing must be defined narrowly ("very very" is a little overkill for a generalization ). But now we have a specific incident. In assessing this and the details outlined, I just do not feel a full deal was ever reached. Thus nothing to "violate".

 

But it IS very very troubling. I would certainly have no objection to knowing who the seller was.

 

I feel the opposite, if this was to take place on the boards directly through a sales thread it was:

 

Book A graded at 4.0

 

Price $Some amount of money,

 

Brock then posted pending scans (in this case seeing in hand).

 

Sorry realized I don't need to sell it that low.

 

That is why I spoke to specifics. What you cited is not what happened here. Even CC says there was more to discuss when he said "the deal didn't make it that far". The PL Rules are like the OSPG - a guide.

 

Personally I would love to see copy/pastes of the emails involved in this. No need to include specific names but this needs more than a summation of events by one party. A record of the email exchange would certainly help form a much more informed opinion .

[skypinkblu]

 

Whose idea was it to meet at the airport?

[Iceman399]

We're getting a little far afield, but since you're bringing it up, here's my .02. A second, a minute, a day...time period before remorse is irrelevant, unless the deal has a specific cooling off period. Likewise, public nature vs private. Likewise, a PM "I agree" vs a click of a button vs a post of a graphic.

 

What is in question is what moving parts of a deal are necessary to finalize before one can say "a deal has been struck" and which entitles parties. Clearly price is one aspect. In your example above, that part imho is done and done. Which doesn't mean we have a deal in total. There's manner of compensation, time element, right of return, etc., all to be agreed upon beforehand.

 

A very clear summation of the problem. For me, it is beyond believing that the seller was not bound to at the very least produce the books in a good faith way to attempt to complete the transaction.

 

Let's reverse this, and imagine it was the seller complaining about the buyer: "He made an offer which was accepted, he agreed to pay cash and meet at a given location, finally he said he'd changed his mind and didn't show."

 

As for the reasonable assumption that there must be some room for people to change their minds, respectfully, that room must be defined very very narrowly.

 

 

Also respectfully, you are speaking in generalizations, which is certainly useful and is exactly what the PL Rules are: generalizations.

 

Here we have a very specific and rather unusual situation, though. I agree the room for mind changing must be defined narrowly ("very very" is a little overkill for a generalization ). But now we have a specific incident. In assessing this and the details outlined, I just do not feel a full deal was ever reached. Thus nothing to "violate".

 

But it IS very very troubling. I would certainly have no objection to knowing who the seller was.

 

I feel the opposite, if this was to take place on the boards directly through a sales thread it was:

 

Book A graded at 4.0

 

Price $Some amount of money,

 

Brock then posted pending scans (in this case seeing in hand).

 

Sorry realized I don't need to sell it that low.

 

That is why I spoke to specifics. What you cited is not what happened here. Even CC says there was more to discuss when he said "the deal didn't make it that far". The PL Rules are like the OSPG - a guide.

 

Personally I would love to see copy/pastes of the emails involved in this. No need to include specific names but this needs more than a summation of events by one party. A record of the email exchange would certainly help form a much more informed opinion .

 

I am not saying throw the seller to the wolves or anything, but sounds like there was a number of books involved in a lot, the grades of the books and the price was agreed upon. Some time later it seemed like the seller decided I will throw the line back in the water and see if I can get a bit more for the books.

 

I agree more specific exchanges would be more help.

[youfoundjake]

For what its worth, i nominated someone when they threw the takeit and then backed out because they found it cheaper somewhere else.

[Aces]

Whose idea was it to meet at the airport?

 

Wow you mean CComics went to a public place and the seller didn't even show up?

Man that bites.

If he PMed him before the meeting to back out of the deal (the deal wasn't until the buyer got a look at the books if I'm reading this right) then I would say not PL worthy.

 

But to drag a guy out and spend time and gas money for a no-show sucks.

 

I say the seller should Personal Paypal him $20 for time and gas money or go on the PL!

 

 

[skypinkblu]

Whose idea was it to meet at the airport?

 

Wow you mean CComics went to a public place and the seller didn't even show up?

Man that bites.

If he PMed him before the meeting to back out of the deal (the deal wasn't until the buyer got a look at the books if I'm reading this right) then I would say not PL worthy.

 

But to drag a guy out and spend time and gas money for a no-show sucks.

 

I say the seller should Personal Paypal him $20 for time and gas money or go on the PL!

 

 

This is what CC said

 

"After some discussion, the individual and I agreed to meet up in Greensboro since they were coming east to visit family and since the book was raw, it would probably be best to inspect it in person. This meeting was to take place on 1/13. However, after further discussion, we had decided to meet in Charlotte at the airport during the layover. The layover was approx. an hour so it would have been a tight squeeze but doable."

Doesn't sound like a "deal" was made IF the book had to be inspected in person, if was not a case where the buyer accepted a scan.

I'm not sure how far Greensboro and Charlotte are (they don't look close on a map), and if Charlotte is closer to CC, so the seller was going to try to accommodate him, it's a little confusing.

An hour between planes if you have to get to another terminal, is not a lot of time.Maybe the seller was feeling pressured, I can't tell, I'd like more information.