PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[techvoodoo]

AKA...it's recipe for massive butthurt because most people have two different length arms...the long one is the taking arm, and the short one if the giving arm.

 

When you leave people to their own devices and something this nebulous as "take something and then list something later" there will ALWAYS be people taking a choice item and then posting absolute garbage when their turn to give comes. People will also take shortcuts with shipping, or think they don't have to ship in a timely manner, etc.

 

So, short version: Perfect ButtHurtStorm.

 

 

Since June 2012 there has been 2 issues. 1 of them worked out more a less, less in my case, being one of the people who got stiffed but that's a seperate issue.

 

I don't think we are going to be seeing any 'Perfect ButtHurtStorms', probably not even a 'ButtHurtLightDrizzle'. Just genuine cases of people that are taking advantage of other forum members.

 

 

2 PUBLIC issues. That doesn't include the people that may drop out of the thread due to issues that arise, or people that swallow the someone sends them because they don't want to rock the boat. That doesn't mean these people don't tell others what's going on, and that the experience was soured.

 

It's a lot more than two in the last year just from the PMs I've received from various folks in the last year that fit the description I gave.

 

 

I'm not sure what other issues you are talking about. If someone received something they didn't like, I'm not sure what to say about that. They claimed the offer, they knew what they were getting. They probably shouldn't have claimed it in the first place.

 

If it wasn't what they were told they were going to get they should have voiced that concern. It should have been dealt with and they were foolish to not say something about it.

 

But right now we are currently talking about a very specific issue here however. What is the appropriate way to handle a member who is supposed to send out an item and they never do.

[slym2none]

AKA...it's recipe for massive butthurt because most people have two different length arms...the long one is the taking arm, and the short one if the giving arm.

 

When you leave people to their own devices and something this nebulous as "take something and then list something later" there will ALWAYS be people taking a choice item and then posting absolute garbage when their turn to give comes. People will also take shortcuts with shipping, or think they don't have to ship in a timely manner, etc.

 

So, short version: Perfect ButtHurtStorm.

 

If they drag in complaints of "my offer was better than yours," then yes. That isn't the case in the situation ManicNerd brings up. We are dealing with someone that possibly took advantage of our community by taking something for free and not fulfilling the obligation he claimed he would by sending out his offer.

 

No bias, just the facts, ma'am.

 

 

 

-slym

[revat]

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5773834&fpart=1

 

Rules above of PIF

 

There's seems to be some misunderstandings about the rules of the PIF, and yes there are actual rules, and they are spelled out relatively clearly. And they are pretty freaking simple IMO, and much more black and white than the rules of selling on the forum for the most part. If you claim an item, you are agreeing to offer another item and send it out to the person who claims it. That's the basis of the whole thing. If they can't follow that basic premise, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send stuff out 3 months later, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send stuff out packaged poorly, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send out reprints when originals were offered, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they don't send ANYTHING at all, I would think PL watchers would want to know AND help compel the aggrieved to be made whole.

[slym2none]

While its not germane to the argument at hand, bathedinflames signed up on 7/12 and hasn't posted since 7/21. I would suspect that even if we choose to nominate PIFers for the PL, he's not going to be affected.

 

That's pretty much what I said in the PIF thread. All emphasis mine.

 

 

 

-slym

[seanfingh]

AKA...it's recipe for massive butthurt because most people have two different length arms...the long one is the taking arm, and the short one if the giving arm.

 

When you leave people to their own devices and something this nebulous as "take something and then list something later" there will ALWAYS be people taking a choice item and then posting absolute garbage when their turn to give comes. People will also take shortcuts with shipping, or think they don't have to ship in a timely manner, etc.

 

So, short version: Perfect ButtHurtStorm.

 

If they drag in complaints of "my offer was better than yours," then yes. That isn't the case in the situation ManicNerd brings up. We are dealing with someone that possibly took advantage of our community by taking something for free and not fulfilling the obligation he claimed he would by sending out his offer.

 

No bias, just the facts, ma'am.

 

 

 

-slym

 

Right, but we have to weigh making wholesale changes on the totality of the circumstances, not the facts of this one instance. Bad facts make bad law.

[seanfingh]

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5773834&fpart=1

 

Rules above of PIF

 

There's seems to be some misunderstandings about the rules of the PIF, and yes there are actual rules, and they are spelled out relatively clearly. And they are pretty freaking simple IMO, and much more black and white than the rules of selling on the forum for the most part. If you claim an item, you are agreeing to offer another item and send it out to the person who claims it. That's the basis of the whole thing. If they can't follow that basic premise, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send stuff out 3 months later, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send stuff out packaged poorly, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send out reprints when originals were offered, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they don't send ANYTHING at all, I would think PL watchers would want to know AND help compel the aggrieved to be made whole.

 

How does having a separate area for PIF offenders fail to do that?

[revat]

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5773834&fpart=1

 

Rules above of PIF

 

There's seems to be some misunderstandings about the rules of the PIF, and yes there are actual rules, and they are spelled out relatively clearly. And they are pretty freaking simple IMO, and much more black and white than the rules of selling on the forum for the most part. If you claim an item, you are agreeing to offer another item and send it out to the person who claims it. That's the basis of the whole thing. If they can't follow that basic premise, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send stuff out 3 months later, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send stuff out packaged poorly, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they send out reprints when originals were offered, I would think PL watchers would want to know. If they don't send ANYTHING at all, I would think PL watchers would want to know AND help compel the aggrieved to be made whole.

 

How does having a separate area for PIF offenders fail to do that?

 

it doesn't. I'm just saying that the core elements are basically the same as the PL, so a different list with like 2.5 people on it probably ain't necessary. Then when people are having sales threads, they put

 

"No probation list or HOS or PIF probation list"

 

its not a huge deal to have another list, I agree, I just don't see it as a huge deal to NOT have another list. The elements are the same of both lists. Someone sent out comics (or supplies) because he believed he would receive comics from another person. IF he did not reasonably believe he would receive those comics, he would not have mailed out the comic supplies. And once that person mailed it out and did not receive what he was offered (and we he accepted, both verbally and constructively).

 

 

I can understand that people might be afraid of other PIF B.S. like value comparisons or whatever, but the PL can toss out those complaints like they do numerous other complaints and grey issues all the time. Hell or the PIF people can discuss in the PIF thread first before bringing it here, which they generally do.

 

Edited August 19, 2013 by Revat

[comix4fun]

AKA...it's recipe for massive butthurt because most people have two different length arms...the long one is the taking arm, and the short one if the giving arm.

 

When you leave people to their own devices and something this nebulous as "take something and then list something later" there will ALWAYS be people taking a choice item and then posting absolute garbage when their turn to give comes. People will also take shortcuts with shipping, or think they don't have to ship in a timely manner, etc.

 

So, short version: Perfect ButtHurtStorm.

 

 

Since June 2012 there has been 2 issues. 1 of them worked out more a less, less in my case, being one of the people who got stiffed but that's a seperate issue.

 

I don't think we are going to be seeing any 'Perfect ButtHurtStorms', probably not even a 'ButtHurtLightDrizzle'. Just genuine cases of people that are taking advantage of other forum members.

 

 

2 PUBLIC issues. That doesn't include the people that may drop out of the thread due to issues that arise, or people that swallow the someone sends them because they don't want to rock the boat. That doesn't mean these people don't tell others what's going on, and that the experience was soured.

 

It's a lot more than two in the last year just from the PMs I've received from various folks in the last year that fit the description I gave.

 

 

I'm not sure what other issues you are talking about. If someone received something they didn't like, I'm not sure what to say about that. They claimed the offer, they knew what they were getting. They probably shouldn't have claimed it in the first place.

 

If it wasn't what they were told they were going to get they should have voiced that concern. It should have been dealt with and they were foolish to not say something about it.

 

But right now we are currently talking about a very specific issue here however. What is the appropriate way to handle a member who is supposed to send out an item and they never do.

 

 

That's is the issue. With the looser structure of the PIF, compared to standard pay for item - ship item one on one transactions, you will run into problems attempting to hold people to a standard of performance or limiting enforcement to a specific failure.

 

People may take an item. It's described as one grade, but it's not. Or it's shipped in the cheapest way possible which leaves the product unprotected. Or they are charged a bunch for shipping and the actual cost is peanuts by comparison.

 

My point was you have a chain of interactions which lead to uncertain terms and bad feelings.

 

I am all for holding people to their commitments. It's taken years to get the PL terms set up to work even in a rudimentary fashion. I don't know if applying the list made for certain types of one on one transactions will work for the PIF.

 

That's why I tend to agree with Sean that a list may be needed for PIF, but that it might be more efficient to have it be in its own thread, given the different standard of performance demanded of the PIF.

[revat]

You guys are talking about all the other "hypotheticals" and honestly I think most of those don't belong in the PL.

 

There is a very real, non-hypothetical in play now where its black and white. A guy agreed to ship something, then did not ship it. He got his, and then peaced out.

 

To me, regardless of where that transaction took place, the moon, Larry David's house, comic-con, a forum on this very website, that is what the PL is in place to help resolve.

 

Anyone else is right to say some of the other more subjective elements are probably too fuzzy for the PL, but this is just "hey, we had a deal, dude didn't ship. Let's put him on the PL." That is the MOST basic and clear PL worthy thing that can happen, at least IMO.

 

 

[comix4fun]

You guys are talking about all the other "hypotheticals" and honestly I think most of those don't belong in the PL.

 

There is a very real, non-hypothetical in play now where its black and white. A guy agreed to ship something, then did not ship it. He got his, and then peaced out.

 

To me, regardless of where that transaction took place, the moon, Larry David's house, comic-con, a forum on this very website, that is what the PL is in place to help resolve.

 

Anyone else is right to say some of the other more subjective elements are probably too fuzzy for the PL, but this is just "hey, we had a deal, dude didn't ship. Let's put him on the PL." That is the MOST basic and clear PL worthy thing that can happen, at least IMO.

 

 

 

The theft of shipping money is a pretty clear PL worthy thing.

[Dr. Balls]

You guys are talking about all the other "hypotheticals" and honestly I think most of those don't belong in the PL.

 

There is a very real, non-hypothetical in play now where its black and white. A guy agreed to ship something, then did not ship it. He got his, and then peaced out.

 

To me, regardless of where that transaction took place, the moon, Larry David's house, comic-con, a forum on this very website, that is what the PL is in place to help resolve.

 

Anyone else is right to say some of the other more subjective elements are probably too fuzzy for the PL, but this is just "hey, we had a deal, dude didn't ship. Let's put him on the PL." That is the MOST basic and clear PL worthy thing that can happen, at least IMO.

 

 

 

The theft of shipping money is a pretty clear PL worthy thing.

 

Not theft of shipping money as I understand it. The guy is guilty of taking a freebie and not reciprocating.

 

This is akin to the current fad of buying coffee for the guy behind you in the Starbucks drive thru. Eventually, some jackhole takes off with a free coffee, stiffing the guy behind him. That's not a crime, nor is it "stealing". It's taking advantage of a freebie situation.

 

If I am wrong, pelase point it out - hard to weed through all these posts....

[comix4fun]

You guys are talking about all the other "hypotheticals" and honestly I think most of those don't belong in the PL.

 

There is a very real, non-hypothetical in play now where its black and white. A guy agreed to ship something, then did not ship it. He got his, and then peaced out.

 

To me, regardless of where that transaction took place, the moon, Larry David's house, comic-con, a forum on this very website, that is what the PL is in place to help resolve.

 

Anyone else is right to say some of the other more subjective elements are probably too fuzzy for the PL, but this is just "hey, we had a deal, dude didn't ship. Let's put him on the PL." That is the MOST basic and clear PL worthy thing that can happen, at least IMO.

 

 

 

The theft of shipping money is a pretty clear PL worthy thing.

 

Not theft of shipping money as I understand it. The guy is guilty of taking a freebie and not reciprocating.

 

This is akin to the current fad of buying coffee for the guy behind you in the Starbucks drive thru. Eventually, some jackhole takes off with a free coffee, stiffing the guy behind him. That's not a crime, nor is it "stealing". It's takign advantage of a freebie situation and when enforcing individual_without_enough_empathy behavior around here results in a PL list nomination, we're all screwed.

 

If I am wrong, pelase point it out - hard to weed through all these posts....

 

 

I thought someone mentioned he took $15 towards shipping of items (items themselves were provided free) and then never shipped.

 

I have to go back and look now.

[Dr. Balls]

You guys are talking about all the other "hypotheticals" and honestly I think most of those don't belong in the PL.

 

There is a very real, non-hypothetical in play now where its black and white. A guy agreed to ship something, then did not ship it. He got his, and then peaced out.

 

To me, regardless of where that transaction took place, the moon, Larry David's house, comic-con, a forum on this very website, that is what the PL is in place to help resolve.

 

Anyone else is right to say some of the other more subjective elements are probably too fuzzy for the PL, but this is just "hey, we had a deal, dude didn't ship. Let's put him on the PL." That is the MOST basic and clear PL worthy thing that can happen, at least IMO.

 

 

 

The theft of shipping money is a pretty clear PL worthy thing.

 

Not theft of shipping money as I understand it. The guy is guilty of taking a freebie and not reciprocating.

 

This is akin to the current fad of buying coffee for the guy behind you in the Starbucks drive thru. Eventually, some jackhole takes off with a free coffee, stiffing the guy behind him. That's not a crime, nor is it "stealing". It's takign advantage of a freebie situation and when enforcing individual_without_enough_empathy behavior around here results in a PL list nomination, we're all screwed.

 

If I am wrong, pelase point it out - hard to weed through all these posts....

 

 

I thought someone mentioned he took $15 towards shipping of items (items themselves were provided free) and then never shipped.

 

I have to go back and look now.

 

If that is the case (I can't recall with all the hypotheticals in the thread now) - then yes, I would agree. That is stealing, and I can see why there is heated discussion.

[techtre2003]

What if there are a few trusted members in the PIF section nominated as reps to post real issues in the PL thread? The discussion could be all done in the PIF section and if it's decided someone needs to go on the list the PIF ref posts it in the PL.

[EC ed]

Actually, looks like it was "$16.45 + tax", which I assume is what manicnerd paid? I'm making this inference based on the PIF thread discussion, here: 7th post on page 365

 

manicnerd, please confirm?

[manicnerd]

No, I did not send BIF any money. I paid $11.80 for my shipping costs.

[slym2none]

Essentially, the way the PIF works, manicnerd paid almost $12 and got nothing in return. It might not have been paid to BathedInFlames, but it was money he paid in expectation of getting some Spider-Man comics.

 

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

 

 

-slym

[thunsicker]

Ok. Here's a question that might clarify this (or just make it muddier). What is the current rule if someone stiffs someone in the Secret Santa threads? How about on a prize thread for a contest? My guess is this should be treated the same way. Or has that never happened?

[seanfingh]

Ok. Here's a question that might clarify this (or just make it muddier). What is the current rule if someone stiffs someone in the Secret Santa threads? How about on a prize thread for a contest? My guess is this should be treated the same way. Or has that never happened?

 

People have gotten stiffed. That and the delayed shipping (and the constant crying about delayed shipping) are why I won't do that deal any more.

[revat]

Essentially, the way the PIF works, manicnerd paid almost $12 and got nothing in return. It might not have been paid to BathedInFlames, but it was money he paid in expectation of getting some Spider-Man comics.

 

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

 

 

-slym

 

He paid $12 AND his mylars that he sent out.

 

Quick rehash:

 

Very general rules of PIF:

 

There's only 1 item up in the thread at one time, its posted by the person who claimed the previous item. When the item you post is claimed you send it to that person.

 

Specifics of this case:

1. There was an item available, a specific comic (or group of comics). Someone with the name "BathedinFlames" claimed that item publicly in the thread.

2. Per the rules of PIF, BathedinFlames then proceeded to offer up 5 Spider-Man books for someone to claim.

3. Manicnerd claimed those books from bathedinflames.

4. Bathedinflames RECIEVED the books he claimed.

5. Manicnerd posted some mylars as his posted offer.

6. Someone else claimed the mylars that Manicnerd posted.

7. Manicnerd not only sent that person the mylars (shipping included), but they were recieved.

 

BathedinFlames NEVER SENT the 5 spideys to Manicnerd.

 

SO to summarize, someone sent some books to bathedinflames under the expectation that bathedflames would send books to the next claimer (who turned out to be manicnerd).

 

AND manicnerd sent some mylars out to the next claimer after him under the expectation that bathedinflames would send him some comics.

 

So bathedinflames BROKE his word to TWO different boardies, and still owes manicnerd some spideys.

 

That's the gist. Manicnerd should have gotten the books more than a month ago, and has given 3 day notice to bathedinflames. He wants to put him on the PL. There are some members, who are unclear or against putting him on the PL here, stating that bathedinflames might be more suited to a specific PIF PL. There are those (myself included) that while not every PIF issue is a PL issue, this seems like a pretty obvious case where the PL should be utilized

Edited August 19, 2013 by Revat