X-Men2 Splash

[BrianHoward]

I just got to Page 5...could not really take it any more

 

its basically Real Housewife's of the CGC Boards

 

Did you end up fighting Jon at the Convention?

 

Too bad for you, you're going to miss all the good stuff.

 

The meeting took place at Brian Schutzer's booth at SDCC. You can ask him how it went down.

 

That was quite a meeting to witness and also the start of my bromance with Felix.

[Bird]

So who owns the X-Men 2 splash now?

[vodou]

So who owns the X-Men 2 splash now?

Excellent question Bird, with the unstated assumption that it ever changed hands (and you can roll that back as far as you like, if you like) in the legal transfer of title sense.

 

So telling. Of so many things:

Does anyone recognize how this negativity actually reflects upon the saleability and pricing of the art?

 

And this is the single best post I've ever read. Note that nobody ever contradicted it. Because they can't.

Picture all the original artwork on a timeline. Got it? OK, now picture the comic art collecting community as a bunch of fickle marauding vikings. You heard me. Get the picture? Good. Now...

 

The fickle marauding vikings are taking their longships up the timeline and looting the art from that era. When they get to a spot in the timeline, the new riches and jewels are first had cheaply, for the cost of an axe in the forehead of the owner. Then they pass the art down to the next longboat in the marauding floatila and as each successive marauder gets their hand on it, they're excided and value it higher and higher. By the time it reaches the end of the caravan it's valued extremely high but the excitement is gone as everyone else has had their hands on it. Try to pass it up the caravan and while they appreciate it and acknowledge the value of it (after all they helped set it) it's just not worth it for them. There's no exitement there. Besides, the head of the caravan is at a new point in the timeline and those looted treasures are heading this way with ever increasing values and excitement of the discovery. Besides, there's much more profit to be made on a piece that hasn't achieved it's price peak yet than one that is sliding down the other side of the hill.

 

By the time the whole caravan has gone through a specific point in the timeline, the area is pretty looted. All those baubles that looked so attractive once have lost their sheen and only the true gems and gold have some chance of retaining their peak value and appreciating. You just have to hope that as the new generation of Vikings come up the timeline they stop at the point your are at and their newbie excitement is enough to overcome the inflated price. Fortunately for some of the people in this marauding campaign the new blood is coming off of a prior successful campaign and they have baubles they are no longer interested in and trading in for these shiny new ones!

 

Sound a little cynical? Maybe. I've seen the full cycle twice already and it's halfway through the third cycle I'm witnessing (or spot in the timeline to stick with the analogy). Each time the cycle works faster and the top prices get higher. I'm in no way saying this is the only justification for the crazy pricing we see. It's just one part of the puzzle no one ever talks about.

 

I got off the longboat a while ago and beat my sword and axe into ploughshares on the shores of a spot in the timeline most of the newer Vikings have no interest in. I'm content farming this land for the most part. I get the bloodlust every once in a while and maybe I'll get a good axethrow in here or there but I usually go back to my farm on that mostly forgotten spot of the timeline and cultivate my crops.

 

When the other vikings look at me quizically and ask how I could trade in my marauding ways for the life of a farmer I tell them the bloodlust got to be too much. I saw the meaningless ferociousness of the bezerker rage and there's nothing like a few axe wounds in your back from your comrades in arms to make you realize how pointless the bloodlust can be. I also remind them not to eye my farm, I still know how to use an axe and I'm not afraid to swing it!

 

 

[Eric Seffinga]

I have a farm too. I recognize much of that actually. Well played. I'd almost totally forgotten this thread. As I recall, there was more of the same being chatted up on the Comicart-L at the same time.

[tth2]

In case it wasn't obvious, I knew all along what was going on here. As did others. Yesterday, I got absolute confirmation that I was correct from one of the parties involved. It's never too late to set the record straight, and I appreciated it. It's nice having an epilogue after all these years.

Uh, Felix, for the benefit of those who've forgotten all about this thread and don't want to bother wading through it again, can you give us a quick Cliff Notes summary, particularly what you were correct about?

[Nexus]

In case it wasn't obvious, I knew all along what was going on here. As did others. Yesterday, I got absolute confirmation that I was correct from one of the parties involved. It's never too late to set the record straight, and I appreciated it. It's nice having an epilogue after all these years.

Uh, Felix, for the benefit of those who've forgotten all about this thread and don't want to bother wading through it again, can you give us a quick Cliff Notes summary, particularly what you were correct about?

 

Sigh...kids and their short attention spans.

 

People should really read the entire thread for full effect and to appreciate all the nuances. If you want to get educated, you gotta do some of the work.

 

If you must take a shortcut, read all of Lambo's posts.

 

To me, the thread relates to the machinations behind the valuations, marketing, and selling of art in this hobby, and the ramifications for the market as a whole. I include shilling in that, so this is more relevant than ever.

 

I actually summarized all this a couple of times already in this thread, and I'll just repost those.

 

As to what I was correct about...I was correct that the X-MEN #2 splash was a consignment all along. So despite all the protestations from the consignor that he was a "former owner", and all the backfitting to make a story (barely) plausible...that's all it was, a story. Players (often from the big kids' sandbox) play games. With consequences for the entire hobby. I'm trying really hard to be charitable, so I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[Nexus]

Summary from 12/2/2010:

 

Now that this has gone from a $150K valuation in July 2009 to $72K ("Reserve Not Met") on ComicConnect tonight, let's recap:

 

-- This was first shopped privately to BSDs at a much higher price than $150K (the original price on Romitaman) by the alleged "former owner". Good thing they passed. They didn't get to be BSDs for nothing.

 

-- It was then allegedly sold/traded ("mostly cash" according to the "former owner") to Romitaman who listed it for $150K. Whether or not this actually happened is important, since the "former owner" stood to gain from the eventual sale if it was actually consigned. Which would make his posts about the piece less than objective.

 

-- Romitaman is praised by the "former owner" as "one of the sharpest dealers" who will turn a "HUGE profit" on this piece. I agree with the former (another reason I doubted any deal was done in the first place). The latter was questionable, especially when...

 

-- Romitaman then incrementally lowered the price from $150K to $105K over the course of 14 months on his site. It should be noted that Romitaman has some of the friendliest terms in the hobby (time payments, trades, etc.) and yet, no deal could be struck.

 

(It should also be noted that dealers rarely lower their prices. Most only raise them. Romitaman is not known to lower prices on anything...except on consignment items at the request of consignors. It would seem that this piece would fit that bill.)

 

-- Finally, to all those in this thread who believed the BS hype and said they would have paid $150K for this splash if only they had the money...be thankful you didn't have the money.

 

It's been fun. Now to watch HOLLYWOOD TREASURE for more truthiness.

[Nexus]

Summary from 12/14/10:

 

I don't think it's odd that a piece sells for 'alot' more right after auction. It takes two to do the bid tango. And all 72k means is that that is where the underbidder stopped. The high bidder may have been willing to go substantially higher... but his high bid, or potential high bid did not meet reserve. Pure conjecture, but his high bid may have been 95k and the reserve may have been 100k. So, maybe they came together after the auction. Not hard to fathom or believe.

 

That's fine, Dan. I'm not saying that's impossible, just odd. Even going by your conjecture, a sudden "all cash" sale does not make much sense. Not when the piece was sitting on the website (available in any combination of cash/trade along with time payments) for months at around that same value.

 

But who knows. The "former owner" himself mentioned in this thread a "big kids' sandbox" (of which he was a member) and "closed door deals". All we know for sure is that:

 

-- The splash shows up on Romitaman in July 2009 for $150K.

 

-- Mankuta then comes here to tout the page as an objective "former owner" since he claims the splash has been sold/traded to Mike (who would then make a "HUGE" profit) and NOT consigned. He repeats this claim many times.

 

-- Mike backs that story and says he owns the splash.

 

-- Over the next 14 months, the price is incrementally lowered until bottoming out at $105K. It never sells.

 

-- It then appears in November 2010 in Comic Connect's then-upcoming December auction (with a rather incredible auction description).

 

-- At the Decemeber 2010 auction, bidding stops at $72K, reserve not met.

 

-- A few days later (in reply to some posts here) Mike announces that he had actually acquired the splash "this past summer" and had just sold it after the unsuccessful auction for "alot more" and "all cash", to boot.

 

Concurrent to all this:

 

-- Romitaman receives some nice publicity on Mankuta's HOLLYWOOD TREASURE TV show.

 

-- Profiles/HT is auctioning Romitaman's ASM #50 splash (which had been valued on air at $100K).

 

I'm just going by what's been said on these boards, feel free to correct any inaccuracies.

 

BTW...do you believe the auction description's "rumored" $250K (implied all-cash) "sale" of the X-MEN #1 splash?

[Nexus]

So who owns the X-Men 2 splash now?

 

The splash was eventually sold after the CC auction to a new owner. But until that point, it had been a consignment.

 

 

[Unca Ben]

I'm resurrecting this thread from almost 7 years ago because:

 

1. It's essential reading for anyone interested in a peek behind the curtain. This is especially true for newbies.

 

2. All threads serve as historical documents. They don't go away.

 

3. Pay attention to who wrote what in this thread. Which side they chose. Again, informative, especially for newbies.

 

In case it wasn't obvious, I knew all along what was going on here. As did others. Yesterday, I got absolute confirmation that I was correct from one of the parties involved. It's never too late to set the record straight, and I appreciated it. It's nice having an epilogue after all these years.

 

Anyway, don't take too much at face value when it comes to numbers in this hobby. Also, Lambo is one of the greatest posters of all time, and we need him here more!

 

 

Felix,

Thanks for reminding folks of this thread, I'd forgotten about it - and I even made a small contribution.

You took some grief for it at the time.

 

Patterns of behavior emerge.

How slippery the useage of the English language can be .

I'm glad I don't buy art anymore, I'm happy just holding on to my meager collection.

Looks like being a "BSD" can be difficult - trying to remember what was said, and when, while keeping your mouth shut at the same time.

 

 

 

[Doc McCoy]

So who owns the X-Men 2 splash now?

 

The splash was eventually sold after the CC auction to a new owner. But until that point, it had been a consignment.

 

 

Joking aside, after reading this entire thread (thank you, Felix). You all were told that it sold privately following the CC auction, but has it ever been seen again to confirm this (which may, or may not have been the point of Sean's question)?

[delekkerste]

It hasn't been seen again publicly, but people know where it ended up (sorry, not my place to say).

 

All the kabuki theater surrounding the piece really tainted it at the time. If it had been priced correctly and without the shenanigans, it would have gotten a lot more love. Now, of course, the nonsense has been forgotten and the piece stands on its own for what it is. Definitely an opportunity missed.

[Doc McCoy]

Thanks, Gene. No need, or wouldn't expect the owner to be shared. I think many were just wondering if the private sale actually happened or if it was just posturing, given the drama in the thread.

[glendgold]

Wow, I sound smart. And repetitive. I love me.

[vodou]

It hasn't been seen again publicly, but people know where it ended up (sorry, not my place to say).

 

All the kabuki theater surrounding the piece really tainted it at the time. If it had been priced correctly and without the shenanigans, it would have gotten a lot more love. Now, of course, the nonsense has been forgotten and the piece stands on its own for what it is. Definitely an opportunity missed.

Crisis can create opportunity (contrarian value), often hard to identify in the moment though!

[jaybuck43]

[Bill C]

Very interesting read in light of recent events, thanks for the bump.

[Bronty]

"Chinese" not being a language

[JadeGiant]

It's a great splash, no doubt. I myself am interested for this reason (and apologies for repeating something I wrote a few years ago): in any communal activity, from roommates sharing a house to corporations manufacturing and selling a product, you behave according to the precepts of a moral pyramid. (My econ teacher put this on the board in 8th grade -- sparing you an attempt to actually draw a pyramid, imagine these four bases for decisions as if they're in a pyramid shape:

 

MORAL

 

LEGAL

 

ACCEPTED PRACTICE

 

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE

 

I'm sure there's more information on the net about how that works, but my teacher's point 35 years ago was that obviously the best, most helpful way to make decisions was if they had a moral basis, and if not that then a legal, and if not that...

 

His point was also that more people followed the law of the jungle and fewer the moral path.

 

Funny, given wikileaks and whatnot, but I've noticed that regardless of the net and the price databases, there is sometimes less and less transparency as time goes on, not more.

 

I have no idea what's going on with this splash's ownership or pricing, but as the money behind the hobby solidifies, I think an inquiry into where on the moral pyramid a given transaction falls is -- as long as it's factual -- at least interesting if not also an inquiry to how things work around here.

 

I am saving this one - great post Glen!

 

Thanks for the bump. I read the entire thread and I would recommend the same if you are a newer player in the OA market as I am. Don’t cheat yourself – the time is worth the education you will get.

[comix4fun]

It's a great splash, no doubt. I myself am interested for this reason (and apologies for repeating something I wrote a few years ago): in any communal activity, from roommates sharing a house to corporations manufacturing and selling a product, you behave according to the precepts of a moral pyramid. (My econ teacher put this on the board in 8th grade -- sparing you an attempt to actually draw a pyramid, imagine these four bases for decisions as if they're in a pyramid shape:

 

MORAL

 

LEGAL

 

ACCEPTED PRACTICE

 

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE

 

I'm sure there's more information on the net about how that works, but my teacher's point 35 years ago was that obviously the best, most helpful way to make decisions was if they had a moral basis, and if not that then a legal, and if not that...

 

His point was also that more people followed the law of the jungle and fewer the moral path.

 

Funny, given wikileaks and whatnot, but I've noticed that regardless of the net and the price databases, there is sometimes less and less transparency as time goes on, not more.

 

I have no idea what's going on with this splash's ownership or pricing, but as the money behind the hobby solidifies, I think an inquiry into where on the moral pyramid a given transaction falls is -- as long as it's factual -- at least interesting if not also an inquiry to how things work around here.

 

I am saving this one - great post Glen!

 

Thanks for the bump. I read the entire thread and I would recommend the same if you are a newer player in the OA market as I am. Don’t cheat yourself – the time is worth the education you will get.

 

 

Just so you know, you owe Glen a dollar or an ice cold Fresca (dealer's choice) every time you use or refer to the "Glen Gold Pyramid of Moral Madness™"