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X-Men2 Splash

Started by clemso,

271 posts in this topic

heartened

heartened

Posted
Posted
My deal with Dan was all trade (and yeah, a few years back when Dan and I did that deal, those covers were worth less too...now, like the X-Men splash, they've all gone up sharply in value, so it's all relative...).

 

My deal with Burkey however wasn't all trade like with Dan, it involved a lot of cash..

 

Apropos of nothing, I was just wondering how all you BSDs deal with a mega-sale? Say, six figures? Trade is trade...but any cash at that level has got to be a giant red flag for the IRS, even if you do everything on the straight and narrow. Especially these days.

 

Just curious as I wouldn't know-- I'm not a player in the big kids sandbox.

 

This has always been an interesting question, that I don't know the answer to. Any tax lawyers on the boards? I'm sure Chris Caira may know better than most.

 

I'm always on the short end of the stick (buying end) for these types of deals, although I have yet to hit the six-figure mark. I will say that typically folks want a significant portion in cash (not check or other type of payment), with all the implications that cash payments have. So, there you go.

 

As for other forms of large payments, I assume dealers pay taxes on sales minus overhead/expenditures, which includes new purchases, so in the end they are just paying on their profit/income. But, this is just my simplistic view of things.

 

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cheekyj2112

cheekyj2112

Posted
Posted
If you make ANY profit, it is considered a capital gain (either short or long-term based on the difference between acquisition and sale). Any capital gain is subject to taxes. End of discussion.

 

I don't know about the US but in Ye Olde England while that is technically true, individuals also have a CGT allowance which they can set off against the gain so that tax is only paid on gains over and above the allowance. It is currently approx $16k so that may not have much relevance at these levels even if you amalgamated your allowance with that of your spouse.

 

I myself have certainly noted that moving 5 figures sums, especially internationally has started to raise red flags in respect of money laundering regulations with the banks. Though I usually find that once I start explaining it's for comic art their eyes start glazing over and I'm home free. :o)

 

 

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malvin

malvin

Posted
Posted
If you make ANY profit, it is considered a capital gain (either short or long-term based on the difference between acquisition and sale). Any capital gain is subject to taxes. End of discussion.

 

That doesn't apply everywhere.

 

In Canada, there is a rule of "personal use property" and OA qualifies. Basically if you buy and sell anything considered "personal use property" you can consider the cost and proceeds $1K, or actual, depending on which is higher. So if you buy and sell stuff under $1K, even if it cost you $1 and you sell it for $900, you don't have to pay capital gains.

 

I'm not sure about the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar concept.

 

Malvin

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Dick Pontoon

Dick Pontoon

Posted
Posted
I just heard about this thread last night. I guess I'll need to print it out and read it on my way to SDCC next week

 

Oh, it's a laff riot. :sick:

 

I think Gene summed it up nicely in his second post.

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john h.-migration

john h.-migration

Posted
Posted

I myself have certainly noted that moving 5 figures sums, especially internationally has started to raise red flags in respect of money laundering regulations with the banks.

 

Cheeky Joe,

 

What type of laundry detergent DO you use ?

 

Do you run them through a dryer or just hang them up on the clothesline.

 

Iron or Starch ?

 

;););)

 

 

John H.

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cheekyj2112

cheekyj2112

Posted
Posted

I myself have certainly noted that moving 5 figures sums, especially internationally has started to raise red flags in respect of money laundering regulations with the banks.

 

Cheeky Joe,

 

What type of laundry detergent DO you use ?

 

Do you run them through a dryer or just hang them up on the clothesline.

 

Iron or Starch ?

 

;););)

 

 

John H.

 

You know me, John.

Cleaner than clean.

Whiter than white.

Errrr...actually....scrub that last one.

;)

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CollectingFool

CollectingFool

Posted
Posted
What idiotic blabbering,..is is supposed to be about THE ART.

 

Oh, come on! Very rarely is comic art these days EVER about the art. Nostalgia, yes. That was the majority of the motivation for a long time. I find lately it's more about the money and prestige/recognition than almost anything else. I haven't been around for as long as some others but I've seen tons of "collectors" suddenly get interested in certain art only because it became hot and jumped up in value. If it were truly about the ART itself (aesthetic beauty) we wouldn't be talking about most comic art out there.

 

BTW, in response to another post, whether Jon still owned the piece or not is irrelevant. I wouldn't think the prior owner's opinion is objective either. To be truly objective you have to be completely removed from the piece and have no axe to grind.

 

On the taxes issue, do you know how many "collectors" would wind up royally screwed if they ever got audited? As someone that's had the misfortune of having a face to face with the IRS recently, let me tell you the whole collecting hobby is screwed if they look our way. Just ask the IRS, the recipients of the proceeds of some very expensive art I had.

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

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fc

fc

Posted
Posted
NEW SALE PRICE:

 

http://www.romitaman.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=6002&Details=1&From=Room

 

Yours now for only $145,000...

 

yea, that 3.33333333333333333333333% discount might just persuade me. ;-)

 

funny thread but i expect nothing less from the cgc comics forum. this place is

just odd compared to every other forum i have ever used. This thread did not disappoint!

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Galactus

Galactus

Posted
Posted

So let me ask, what does everyone think this is actualy worth ?

 

Looking at the splash, it looks real nice, and given the DD cover sale recently (which in my opinion is no where near as nice as this), can this not be a $100k+ piece ?

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CollectingFool

CollectingFool

Posted
Posted
Looking at the splash, it looks real nice, and given the DD cover sale recently (which in my opinion is no where near as nice as this), can this not be a $100k+ piece ?

 

One has nothing to do with the other. You are trying to link the two using artisitic merit or aesthetics. The $100K price for the Miller had almost absolutely nothing to do with artistic merit. I'm going to work out a theory here so pardon me if I get a little long winded.

 

Picture all the original artwork on a timeline. Got it? OK, now picture the comic art collecting community as a bunch of fickle marauding vikings. You heard me. Get the picture? Good. Now...

 

The fickle marauding vikings are taking their longships up the timeline and looting the art from that era. When they get to a spot in the timeline, the new riches and jewels are first had cheaply, for the cost of an axe in the forehead of the owner. Then they pass the art down to the next longboat in the marauding floatila and as each successive marauder gets their hand on it, they're excided and value it higher and higher. By the time it reaches the end of the caravan it's valued extremely high but the excitement is gone as everyone else has had their hands on it. Try to pass it up the caravan and while they appreciate it and acknowledge the value of it (after all they helped set it) it's just not worth it for them. There's no exitement there. Besides, the head of the caravan is at a new point in the timeline and those looted treasures are heading this way with ever increasing values and excitement of the discovery. Besides, there's much more profit to be made on a piece that hasn't achieved it's price peak yet than one that is sliding down the other side of the hill.

 

By the time the whole caravan has gone through a specific point in the timeline, the area is pretty looted. All those baubles that looked so attractive once have lost their sheen and only the true gems and gold have some chance of retaining their peak value and appreciating. You just have to hope that as the new generation of Vikings come up the timeline they stop at the point your are at and their newbie excitement is enough to overcome the inflated price. Fortunately for some of the people in this marauding campaign the new blood is coming off of a prior successful campaign and they have baubles they are no longer interested in and trading in for these shiny new ones!

 

Sound a little cynical? Maybe. I've seen the full cycle twice already and it's halfway through the third cycle I'm witnessing (or spot in the timeline to stick with the analogy). Each time the cycle works faster and the top prices get higher. I'm in no way saying this is the only justification for the crazy pricing we see. It's just one part of the puzzle no one ever talks about.

 

I got off the longboat a while ago and beat my sword and axe into ploughshares on the shores of a spot in the timeline most of the newer Vikings have no interest in. I'm content farming this land for the most part. I get the bloodlust every once in a while and maybe I'll get a good axethrow in here or there but I usually go back to my farm on that mostly forgotten spot of the timeline and cultivate my crops.

 

When the other vikings look at me quizically and ask how I could trade in my marauding ways for the life of a farmer I tell them the bloodlust got to be too much. I saw the meaningless ferociousness of the bezerker rage and there's nothing like a few axe wounds in your back from your comrades in arms to make you realize how pointless the bloodlust can be. I also remind them not to eye my farm, I still know how to use an axe and I'm not afraid to swing it!

 

 

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heartened

heartened

Posted
Posted
Looking at the splash, it looks real nice, and given the DD cover sale recently (which in my opinion is no where near as nice as this), can this not be a $100k+ piece ?

 

One has nothing to do with the other. You are trying to link the two using artisitic merit or aesthetics. The $100K price for the Miller had almost absolutely nothing to do with artistic merit. I'm going to work out a theory here so pardon me if I get a little long winded.

 

Picture all the original artwork on a timeline. Got it? OK, now picture the comic art collecting community as a bunch of fickle marauding vikings. You heard me. Get the picture? Good. Now...

 

The fickle marauding vikings are taking their longships up the timeline and looting the art from that era. When they get to a spot in the timeline, the new riches and jewels are first had cheaply, for the cost of an axe in the forehead of the owner. Then they pass the art down to the next longboat in the marauding floatila and as each successive marauder gets their hand on it, they're excided and value it higher and higher. By the time it reaches the end of the caravan it's valued extremely high but the excitement is gone as everyone else has had their hands on it. Try to pass it up the caravan and while they appreciate it and acknowledge the value of it (after all they helped set it) it's just not worth it for them. There's no exitement there. Besides, the head of the caravan is at a new point in the timeline and those looted treasures are heading this way with ever increasing values and excitement of the discovery. Besides, there's much more profit to be made on a piece that hasn't achieved it's price peak yet than one that is sliding down the other side of the hill.

 

By the time the whole caravan has gone through a specific point in the timeline, the area is pretty looted. All those baubles that looked so attractive once have lost their sheen and only the true gems and gold have some chance of retaining their peak value and appreciating. You just have to hope that as the new generation of Vikings come up the timeline they stop at the point your are at and their newbie excitement is enough to overcome the inflated price. Fortunately for some of the people in this marauding campaign the new blood is coming off of a prior successful campaign and they have baubles they are no longer interested in and trading in for these shiny new ones!

 

Sound a little cynical? Maybe. I've seen the full cycle twice already and it's halfway through the third cycle I'm witnessing (or spot in the timeline to stick with the analogy). Each time the cycle works faster and the top prices get higher. I'm in no way saying this is the only justification for the crazy pricing we see. It's just one part of the puzzle no one ever talks about.

 

I got off the longboat a while ago and beat my sword and axe into ploughshares on the shores of a spot in the timeline most of the newer Vikings have no interest in. I'm content farming this land for the most part. I get the bloodlust every once in a while and maybe I'll get a good axethrow in here or there but I usually go back to my farm on that mostly forgotten spot of the timeline and cultivate my crops.

 

When the other vikings look at me quizically and ask how I could trade in my marauding ways for the life of a farmer I tell them the bloodlust got to be too much. I saw the meaningless ferociousness of the bezerker rage and there's nothing like a few axe wounds in your back from your comrades in arms to make you realize how pointless the bloodlust can be. I also remind them not to eye my farm, I still know how to use an axe and I'm not afraid to swing it!

 

 

Hey Ruben,

 

A very enjoyable post! Didn't know you had such a colorful imagination! ;)

 

To answer the original question, though, I'd say it's "worth" 100K, so the price is where I would expect it to be. It's an early appearance (second, to be exact) of the original team, and probably the best layout/composition off the first ten issues, but no first appearance or other importance unto itself. Kirby is known as the originator of much of the Silver Age, but the early X-Men is not considered his major contribution, not by a longshot. Remember that the series was canceled, and then only regained popularity due to Clairmont/Cockrum and then Clairmont/Byrne, with an entirely new set of protagnosits (except Cyclops, of course).

 

So, somewhat less cynical than Ruben, I'd say the price is right, but there are probably only a handful of people who have the interest in early X-Men at this level, and the financial resources, to go for this piece over other 100K pieces. And that's why it hasn't sold yet.

 

Would I be proud to hand it on my wall? Absolutely! But, there are other things I'd personally buy at that price instead of this one.

 

Hari

 

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CollectingFool

CollectingFool

Posted
Posted
there are probably only a handful of people who have the interest in early X-Men at this level

 

Hey Hari,

 

Actually, your post supports my point to a degree. As you say, only a handful of people can play at this level. As you know this piece has been kicking around for a little while now. Anyone in the hobby now that can afford it has already made the decision to pass on it. I don't know about you but once I decide something isn't worth it to me, I don't suddenly get interested again unless the price makes it feel like a bargain.

 

So, what does that leave? Someone new looking for an impressive piece or someone trading/selling a bunch of stuff to finance it. If it does sell, I think there's a good chance it will be the latter.

 

There's nothing in this hobby like "uncovering" an important piece and showing it off to people. I think that collecting high is the reason a lot of people go over-the-top on some pieces. Once that initial high is gone, pieces are resold and you better hope you find someone to whom that experience is worth the amount you're asking.

 

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