And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[nearmint]

Tim's posts on the subject of pressing are laced with the same self-destructive venom that Brad exhibited in the months before his banning. It's kind of sad to see.

Nah, Brad was angry about lots of things. I`m just angry about pressing.

 

That's why I prefaced my comment with the phrase on the subject of pressing...

 

Tim, you're a smart person. People respect what you have to say on any topic. But the personal attacks overshadow anything you might have to say about pressing. They invalidate any argument that you present.

[joeypost]

Any time the topic of pressing comes up, somewhere, sometime, the pro-pressers will usually begin talking about how there is a feeling that the other side tends to make personal attacks on those who press.

 

Well, the topic was even being discussed and someone takes a swipe at those who do press. Folks, we might not ever agree on pressing. That is fine. But is it too much to ask that the character and morals of those of us who do press, and do disclose (cause that is what it is about right?) NOT get called names that are synonyms for cheat, thief, liar, etc?

 

 

The GL #1 and some of the earlier issues were picked up by a private collector and are disappearing for a while I think.

I sure hope that's the case, Roy. I figured at that price it must be going to some dirtbag presser who's planning on making a profit by getting it up to a 9.4.

 

I guess it doesnt bother some to question people's character over a message board. I just wonder if they would be willing so willing to say that in a face to face conversation.

 

Thanks Tim. It seems your hypocrisy knows no bounds

Maybe my statement was abrasive, not nice, or many other things, but I'm not sure how it's hypocritical, Arex.

 

Abrasive

 

I now have another word to add to my up and coming custom title. Dirtbag.

 

Tim, I want you to know I pressed a few books in your honor last night. I might give them a new "From the TTH inspired DIRTBAG collection" designation.

 

And the sarcasm that doesn't help the discussion continues... Thnaks for making clearly making, one, of my points...

 

Jim

 

I thought I was being kind compared to Tim's overall earlier post. If you make a blanket statement about everyone that presses I would imagine a little sarcasm is warranted. I also believe my past participation in pressing threads allows me to vent a little. Or do you have a different dog in this fight?

 

What diffeernt "dog" would you suggest? It's criticism like yours that make the other side think they need to attack. I understand that you were addressing a specific comment but it's routine for the pro-pressing crowd to throw this type of criticism, even if unprovoked, at the anti-crowd. Sarcasm tends to suggest a disregard to a person's views...and that's rampant arounf here considering this topic from many posters.

 

You press, everyone knows it. Have fun doing it.. Just don't expect everyone to embrace your passion for doing so...

 

Jim

 

Was I being sarcastic or critical? I did not attack unprovoked. He called everyone that presses a dirtbag. I just let him know I heard him. To name call over the internet is cowardice. If you want to discuss this pull me aside at one of the conventions. It's that easy. I even invite Tim to do the same. I enjoy a good discussion. I'll even buy the first round of drinks.

[lookwhoitis]

Maybe a change to mid-grade comics, which you can read and take to the can with you without fear of grade-dropping

 

 

 

Reading is Fun-damental!

[MCMiles]

Any time the topic of pressing comes up, somewhere, sometime, the pro-pressers will usually begin talking about how there is a feeling that the other side tends to make personal attacks on those who press.

 

Well, the topic was even being discussed and someone takes a swipe at those who do press. Folks, we might not ever agree on pressing. That is fine. But is it too much to ask that the character and morals of those of us who do press, and do disclose (cause that is what it is about right?) NOT get called names that are synonyms for cheat, thief, liar, etc?

 

 

The GL #1 and some of the earlier issues were picked up by a private collector and are disappearing for a while I think.

I sure hope that's the case, Roy. I figured at that price it must be going to some dirtbag presser who's planning on making a profit by getting it up to a 9.4.

 

I guess it doesnt bother some to question people's character over a message board. I just wonder if they would be willing so willing to say that in a face to face conversation.

 

Thanks Tim. It seems your hypocrisy knows no bounds

Maybe my statement was abrasive, not nice, or many other things, but I'm not sure how it's hypocritical, Arex.

 

Abrasive

 

I now have another word to add to my up and coming custom title. Dirtbag.

 

Tim, I want you to know I pressed a few books in your honor last night. I might give them a new "From the TTH inspired DIRTBAG collection" designation.

 

And the sarcasm that doesn't help the discussion continues... Thnaks for making clearly making, one, of my points...

 

Jim

 

I thought I was being kind compared to Tim's overall earlier post. If you make a blanket statement about everyone that presses I would imagine a little sarcasm is warranted. I also believe my past participation in pressing threads allows me to vent a little. Or do you have a different dog in this fight?

 

What diffeernt "dog" would you suggest? It's criticism like yours that make the other side think they need to attack. I understand that you were addressing a specific comment but it's routine for the pro-pressing crowd to throw this type of criticism, even if unprovoked, at the anti-crowd. Sarcasm tends to suggest a disregard to a person's views...and that rampant arounf here considering this topic from many posters.

 

You press, everyone knows it. Have fun doing it.. Just don't expect everyone to embrace your passion for doing so...

 

Jim

 

You are only going to see it the way you want to Jim, but your statement here is wrong. Even if there is some truth to it, do you really want to get in to a "they started it" pizzing match? As suspected, disclosure was never enough, and now the fact that pressing isn't going away has frustrated at least one person to the point of throwing out insults at a whole group of people. Arex started this thread based on one jerk's out of the blue comment. The same jerk has even come forward and said it again in this thread, and has stated that he will continue to be outspoken about it. You all should feel free to say anything negative about pressing "practice" you would like, but there is no reason to throw out blanket statements about pressers/pro-pressers - about people you don't even know. It's directly disrespectful, and yes, I'll take it personal.

[Domo Arigato]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

 

 

[awe4one]

Was I being sarcastic or critical? I did not attack unprovoked. He called everyone that presses a dirtbag. I just let him know I heard him. To name call over the internet is cowardice. If you want to discuss this pull me aside at one of the conventions. It's that easy. I even invite Tim to do the same. I enjoy a good discussion. I'll even buy the first round of drinks.

 

But we aren't at a convention. We are talking on a Forum and debating the issue through words. If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I'll call you out on the drink next year, but it doesn't help with the discussion.

 

I've curtailed my attacks on the matter, and boy I have really been adament on the matter in the past, but I've realized discussion sans the attacks is a better medium. If you think a rational discussion is the venue for debating this subject to justify your pressing activities, then let's go. If not, continue the sarcasm/attacks...

 

Really, I'm starting to think the pressing crowd have a inferiority complex...

 

Jim

[KingOfRulers]

 

Really, I'm starting to think the pressing crowd have a inferiority complex...

 

Jim

 

[whisp]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

 

 

Just throwing this out there since not sure if it was discussed before but wouldn't water be a non-original material that is used when humidty is needed to press the book?

[joeypost]

Was I being sarcastic or critical? I did not attack unprovoked. He called everyone that presses a dirtbag. I just let him know I heard him. To name call over the internet is cowardice. If you want to discuss this pull me aside at one of the conventions. It's that easy. I even invite Tim to do the same. I enjoy a good discussion. I'll even buy the first round of drinks.

 

But we aren't at a convention. We are talking on a Forum and debating the issue through words. If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I'll call you out on the drink next year, but it doesn't help with the discussion.

 

I've curtailed my attacks on the matter, and boy I have really been adament on the matter in the past, but I've realized discussion sans the attacks is a better medium. If you think a rational discussion is the venue for debating this subject to justify your pressing activities, then let's go. If not, continue the sarcasm/attacks...

 

Really, I'm starting to think the pressing crowd have a inferiority complex...

 

 

 

Jim

 

And you never seem to grow tired of talking out of both sides of your mouth. How do you ask me to curtail my attacks and then end your post with ;

 

Really, I'm starting to think the pressing crowd have a inferiority complex...

 

and my personal favorite

 

If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

[nearmint]

We are talking on a Forum and debating the issue through words. If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

 

Would you recommend that Tim do the same?

[Dale Roberts]

From CGC...

Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration.

 

And if pressing is done incorrectly and damages the comic, CGC downgrades for it. They may not be able to detect pressing done correctly, but they certainly WILL detect damage done from improper pressing.

 

from CGC...

Please note that pressing and / or dry cleaning performed incorrectly or on a comic book exhibiting certain flaws — such as slightly brittle pages, weak spine, cover wear at staple and / or other defects — can damage the comic book and lower its grade.

 

I am not trying to drown out anything. Your arguments and stance simply don't make any sense to me.

 

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

 

Your arguments make sense IF CGC`s definition of restoration is accepted as gospel truth. However, it`s not.

 

I guess that is where we disagree. I would submit that if you purchase CGC books or get books graded, you are promoting my belief that they are correct. I also find it funny that you choose to voice these concerns on a board owned and maintained by CGC.

 

The fact is pressing has been going on since the 1970s. No one will ever know the number of books which have been pressed. No one will every know which specific books have been pressed. If I were to take a guess, I would say there are well over 2 million books in circulation which have already been pressed, and that number could be way low. If you have been buying vintage books since the 1980s, you almost certainly own pressed books, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

[ChasingKingKirby]

I'm fairly neutral on the whole subject of pressing as I know very little about it. Though I have started to educate myself a little about it and have even had Joey Press a few books for me to do some comparison. I can understand the disagreement regarding the topic. What I cannot understand is the generalization and name calling of people who are a) openly disclosing b) pressing books for themselves and for willing participants. Why sink to calling them names? I've met Joey once, he seemed very open, honest and polite, yet I see him here having to defend himself for pressing, when he makes no bones about what he does and the fact that he openly discloses, as do many others, make this seem like something other than fair. Shouldn't the rancor be directed at those who DON'T disclose restoration? I don't LOVE pressing and embrace it with every fiber of my being, but I recognize that it isn't going anywhere, and eventually, most books that can be optimized, will be optimized. Since when has this hobby been devoid of people who like money? If an extra buck can be made, then it's going to happen. Period.

[awe4one]

You are only going to see it the way you want to Jim, but your statement here is wrong. Even if there is some truth to it, do you really want to get in to a "they started it" pizzing match? As suspected, disclosure was never enough, and now the fact that pressing isn't going away has frustrated at least one person to the point of throwing out insults at a whole group of people. Arex started this thread based on one jerk's out of the blue comment. The same jerk has even come forward and said it again in this thread, and has stated that he will continue to be outspoken about it. You all should feel free to say anything negative about pressing "practice" you would like, but there is no reason to throw out blanket statements about pressers/pro-pressers - about people you don't even know. It's directly disrespectful, and yes, I'll take it personal.

 

Disclosure is enough. I've never said otheriwse, and apprecaite, those that do and bought from a number of them.

 

It's such a hot-button topic though, and I'm not sure the pressing crowd appreciates this, that some poeple will demoan anyone who sells pressed comics. It's going to happen and there nothing you can do. If you're comfortable with the practice then the criticism shouldn't hurt...if not then I can see where you'd have a problem...

 

Jim

[Domo Arigato]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

Just throwing this out there since not sure if it was discussed before but wouldn't water be a non-original material that is used when humidty is needed to press the book?

I believe that since it's just "water"...the pressers don't consider it to be something added. However, that's clearly not the case according to the Conservator at the Library of Congress. It's very clear by their statement that the introduction of water can cause chemical reactions in the paper and can cause premature aging and discoloration.

[awe4one]

We are talking on a Forum and debating the issue through words. If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

 

Would you recommend that Tim do the same?

 

 

Yes but I can understand the frustratiion as we're pretty much out-numbered here and fighting to have a voice...

 

I can understand why he said it....

 

Jim

[MrBedrock]

The love of the medium itself is now overshadowed by the love of the mediums condition.

 

The hobby is dying under its own weight.

 

No it's not...people that truly love the hobby are being vocal about what they are seeing in this hobby.

 

I love the hobby.

I think that pressing is not restoration.

[nearmint]

We are talking on a Forum and debating the issue through words. If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

 

Would you recommend that Tim do the same?

 

 

Yes but I can understand the frustratiion as we're pretty much out-numbered here and fighting to have a voice...

 

I can understand why he said it....

 

Jim

 

Oh, I can understand it, too, but I can't condone it. And as I said in my earlier post to Tim, I think the personal attacks overshadow any point he's trying to make.

[awe4one]

Was I being sarcastic or critical? I did not attack unprovoked. He called everyone that presses a dirtbag. I just let him know I heard him. To name call over the internet is cowardice. If you want to discuss this pull me aside at one of the conventions. It's that easy. I even invite Tim to do the same. I enjoy a good discussion. I'll even buy the first round of drinks.

 

But we aren't at a convention. We are talking on a Forum and debating the issue through words. If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I'll call you out on the drink next year, but it doesn't help with the discussion.

 

I've curtailed my attacks on the matter, and boy I have really been adament on the matter in the past, but I've realized discussion sans the attacks is a better medium. If you think a rational discussion is the venue for debating this subject to justify your pressing activities, then let's go. If not, continue the sarcasm/attacks...

 

Really, I'm starting to think the pressing crowd have a inferiority complex...

 

 

 

Jim

 

And you never seem to grow tired of talking out of both sides of your mouth. How do you ask me to curtail my attacks and then end your post with ;

 

Really, I'm starting to think the pressing crowd have a inferiority complex...

 

and my personal favorite

 

If you can't do so coherently without one-on-one contact, and without a sarcastic comment, then I suggest you dismiss yourself from the discussiion.

 

Ok...that's a personal opinion. I didn't call you an a-hole, dirtbag, no good greed monger or any adjective...yet you try to point out some comment that has some validity based on the disciussions we've experienced here.

 

Again, thanks for making my point vs. making yours. And if anyone wonders whers the attacks come from need look no further than come of the comments here...

 

Jim

[Domo Arigato]

The love of the medium itself is now overshadowed by the love of the mediums condition.

 

The hobby is dying under its own weight.

 

No it's not...people that truly love the hobby are being vocal about what they are seeing in this hobby.

 

I love the hobby.

I think that pressing is not restoration.

I love the hobby too.

And I would somewhat agree that pressing does not seem to be a form of restoration.

According to the Library of Congress...it actually appears to be a minor form of destruction.

[MCMiles]

You are only going to see it the way you want to Jim, but your statement here is wrong. Even if there is some truth to it, do you really want to get in to a "they started it" pizzing match? As suspected, disclosure was never enough, and now the fact that pressing isn't going away has frustrated at least one person to the point of throwing out insults at a whole group of people. Arex started this thread based on one jerk's out of the blue comment. The same jerk has even come forward and said it again in this thread, and has stated that he will continue to be outspoken about it. You all should feel free to say anything negative about pressing "practice" you would like, but there is no reason to throw out blanket statements about pressers/pro-pressers - about people you don't even know. It's directly disrespectful, and yes, I'll take it personal.

 

Disclosure is enough. I've never said otheriwse, and apprecaite, those that do and bought from a number of them.

 

It's such a hot-button topic though, and I'm not sure the pressing crowd appreciates this, that some poeple will demoan anyone who sells pressed comics. It's going to happen and there nothing you can do. If you're comfortable with the practice then the criticism shouldn't hurt...if not then I can see where you'd have a problem...

 

Jim

 

It doesn't, never has. I've even always openly listened to the otherside of the debate.

 

I don't have a problem with critcism. I have a problem with disrespect.