Pedigree Auction Sales and Relistings. Legit?

[fantastic_four]

Why not? It's the answer, for many, to pressing. The path of least resistance and all.

 

 

It's a more absolute truth than that--resistance is futile! You can't stop undetectable pressing. You can't stop shilling. You can't stop being short. You can't stop the rain. To not accept parts of the world beyond your control is to drive yourself insane for no good reason.

 

Bobby Knight...is that you?

 

http://www.progressiveu.org/210842-if-rape-is-inevitable-relax-and-enjoy-it

 

 

[joe_collector]

You guys are getting all mixed up between shilling and allowing employees to bid on auctions like everyone else.

 

Shilling involves insider info and the premeditated act of manipulating customers bids to their max amount. That is NOT freely allowed in any state I've heard of, and there have been many auction houses prosecuted for pulling such scams.

 

BIG difference between the two.

[DrWatson]

I find the relationship of this thread to Bob Storms latest thread intriguing. People were directing away from static sales and mentioning auctions. Now auctions are getting placed under the microscope.

 

 

Who knows, possibly intentionally?

 

The bottom line is, this all makes me very grateful for the buying I am able to do through comic book shops and local dealers who seem to still be honest folks (or at least the ones I deal with). It also makes me appreciate guys like Storms, Dave Reynolds, Al Stoltz, Terry O'Neil and some others a whole lot more.

Have you checked out QualityComix February auction? When I read the opening post in this thread, all I could hear in the back of my head was Richard Nixon saying, "I am not a crook."

[MutantKeys]

[VintageComics]

I find the relationship of this thread to Bob Storms latest thread intriguing. People were directing away from static sales and mentioning auctions. Now auctions are getting placed under the microscope.

I put you under the microscope once and saw a tiny little village living in your scalp...complete with a carnival.

 

It made me want to be one of the scalp people so I could ride their ferris wheel.

 

[VintageComics]

I find the relationship of this thread to Bob Storms latest thread intriguing. People were directing away from static sales and mentioning auctions. Now auctions are getting placed under the microscope.

 

 

Who knows, possibly intentionally?

 

The bottom line is, this all makes me very grateful for the buying I am able to do through comic book shops and local dealers who seem to still be honest folks (or at least the ones I deal with). It also makes me appreciate guys like Storms, Dave Reynolds, Al Stoltz, Terry O'Neil and some others a whole lot more.

Have you checked out QualityComix February auction? When I read the opening post, all I could hear in the back of my head was Richard Nixon saying, "I am not a crook."

 

Nevermind...in the interests of not getting into a pizzing match I'm going to delete my post.

 

In my dealings with Brent, I can say Brent has been nothing but above board with me on every level.

 

 

[kc120us]

If shilling bugs you, then there isn't a single auction format you should ever participate in.

I agree. There are three books I want in the Comic Link auction. I'm not sure I want the aggravation associated with bidding on them to even compete for the right to own them. Take into account other circumstances surrounding the books and I am thinking of passing on them altogether.

 

Jim,

If you are speaking of the Northland X-Men I am selling, I hope you are not insinuating that I am shilling them because I am not nor would I ever. I, as the consignor, have no idea who is bidding on my books nor how many people may be bidding on them. I am as in the dark as anyone else here as to the identity of the bidders.

 

As to previous auctions, i've noticed there is usually a flurry of activity in the begining, a long lull of near zero activity during the middle and another flurry of activity at the end. I've seen this pattern since I first started using comic auctions. Nothing new here.

[GACollectibles]

I don't believe there are across-the-board shills on either ComicLink or Pedigree, as I've won significant books for 20% to 30% less than market average. Do certain people bid up their own books, particularly employees of the house as Heritage does? I'd suspect yes, absolutely.

 

Ultimately there's nothing you can do about shilling. If I want to shill my own auctions even if I don't work for the auction house, it's easy, easy, easy. If shilling bugs you, then there isn't a single auction format you should ever participate in.

 

This is a terrific post.

 

So...the answer to shill bidding is.....acceptance?

 

Why not? It's the answer, for many, to pressing. The path of least resistance and all.

 

 

That would depend on the buyers stance on pressing, shill bidding is wrong, pressing is wrong to some people, not legally "wrong".

Huh?

 

Heritage openly and legally bids on its own auctions.

 

I said, shill bidding is wrong. Pressing books is not right or wrong, it's a personal decision.

I knew exactly what you were saying. And I'm saying shill bidding is wrong according to who?

 

Heritage openly does it...countless bidders continue to participate in their auctions...and it's all perfectly legal. That sure seems like a personal decision to me.

 

JC beat me to it.

 

You guys are getting all mixed up between shilling and allowing employees to bid on auctions like everyone else.

 

Shilling involves insider info and the premeditated act of manipulating customers bids to their max amount. That is NOT freely allowed in any state I've heard of, and there have been many auction houses prosecuted for pulling such scams.

 

BIG difference between the two.

[arexcrooke]

If shilling bugs you, then there isn't a single auction format you should ever participate in.

I agree. There are three books I want in the Comic Link auction. I'm not sure I want the aggravation associated with bidding on them to even compete for the right to own them. Take into account other circumstances surrounding the books and I am thinking of passing on them altogether.

 

Jim,

If you are speaking of the Northland X-Men I am selling, I hope you are not insinuating that I am shilling them because I am not nor would I ever. I, as the consignor, have no idea who is bidding on my books nor how many people may be bidding on them. I am as in the dark as anyone else here as to the identity of the bidders.

 

As to previous auctions, i've noticed there is usually a flurry of activity in the begining, a long lull of near zero activity during the middle and another flurry of activity at the end. I've seen this pattern since I first started using comic auctions. Nothing new here.

I know Doc can speak for himself, but I took it to mean that there is funny business going on in these auctions and that funny business causes him to not want to bid at all, regardless of the consignors.

I very much doubt he was targeting you

[The Troll King]

You guys are getting all mixed up between shilling and allowing employees to bid on auctions like everyone else.

 

Shilling involves insider info and the premeditated act of manipulating customers bids to their max amount. That is NOT freely allowed in any state I've heard of, and there have been many auction houses prosecuted for pulling such scams.

 

BIG difference between the two.

 

You're not exactly correct.

 

Shilling in Texas auctions is legal to protect the item being sold as at a given time the right buyer might not be there and the item may sell for substantially less than it should.

 

Often times at live auctions the auctioneer will pull an item if there is little interest which is essentially the same thing.

 

Casinos in Nevada are legally allowed to have shill players at poker tables that are playing for the house to help generate action at a table.

 

Not entirely different.

[jkrk]

Random thoughts:

 

I start with the assumption that every auction is being shilled. I would prefer a full disclosure by the auctioneer that shilling is allowed so no one will be surprised. The shills goal is to take the book up to the minimum price the seller is looking to obtain (is that the hidden reserve?).

 

If sellers would start their auctions at a minimum opening price there would be less of a need for shilling. However, buyers love to see a low opening price and multiple bids which convince them that they are bidding on a very desirable book which they might buy very cheaply so the shills have a role to play.

 

No reserve, low opening prices are the shills playground. If we see only a few books selling on auction sites at discounts does that mean most auctions are being shilled? Or are the discounts on undesirable books?

 

Try this one:

E-Bay sometimes caps out your commission on a sale. Take a book that is difficult to value and put it up for sale on E-bay. Let's say you know the book should sell for $15,000-20,000. Start the auction at $1 and have each of your friends bid for the book. Seven days later the auction might end at $40,000. Does GPA pick up the sale? Is the book now valued at $40,000? Maybe the next buyer will pay $30,000 for the book (a $10,000 discount to the last sale). All this manipulation for a $20 E-Bay commission and the book never changes hands.

 

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

I don't believe there are across-the-board shills on either ComicLink or Pedigree, as I've won significant books for 20% to 30% less than market average. Do certain people bid up their own books, particularly employees of the house as Heritage does? I'd suspect yes, absolutely.

 

Ultimately there's nothing you can do about shilling. If I want to shill my own auctions even if I don't work for the auction house, it's easy, easy, easy. If shilling bugs you, then there isn't a single auction format you should ever participate in.

 

This is a terrific post.

 

So...the answer to shill bidding is.....acceptance?

 

Why not? It's the answer, for many, to pressing. The path of least resistance and all.

 

 

That would depend on the buyers stance on pressing, shill bidding is wrong, pressing is wrong to some people, not legally "wrong".

Huh?

 

Heritage openly and legally bids on its own auctions.

 

I said, shill bidding is wrong. Pressing books is not right or wrong, it's a personal decision.

I knew exactly what you were saying. And I'm saying shill bidding is wrong according to who?

 

Heritage openly does it...countless bidders continue to participate in their auctions...and it's all perfectly legal. That sure seems like a personal decision to me.

 

JC beat me to it.

 

You guys are getting all mixed up between shilling and allowing employees to bid on auctions like everyone else.

 

Shilling involves insider info and the premeditated act of manipulating customers bids to their max amount. That is NOT freely allowed in any state I've heard of, and there have been many auction houses prosecuted for pulling such scams.

 

BIG difference between the two.

Well...JC's post really doesn't apply to the point I was trying to make and what we are all referring to as "shill bidding" for the purpose of this discussion. His post simply relates to what people might correctly or incorrectly be referring to as "shill" bidding.

 

From what I understand, Heritage can bid on and win books in their own auctions and then relist them for sale or auction again later. This seems similar to what Doug might be doing (and for the record...I don't agree with what either of them is doing if this is the case...whether it's legal in their particular state or not). However, I would agree that if Heritage or Doug were winning any of their own (non-consigned) books...it would certainly put another twist into it and might be the tipping point for the wrong/legal scale.

[arexcrooke]

Wouldnt it be wrong according the auction rules of the state of Florida? As far as I know, I have only heard of Texas allowing the house to bid on items

[qualitycomix]

I find the relationship of this thread to Bob Storms latest thread intriguing. People were directing away from static sales and mentioning auctions. Now auctions are getting placed under the microscope.

 

 

Who knows, possibly intentionally?

 

The bottom line is, this all makes me very grateful for the buying I am able to do through comic book shops and local dealers who seem to still be honest folks (or at least the ones I deal with). It also makes me appreciate guys like Storms, Dave Reynolds, Al Stoltz, Terry O'Neil and some others a whole lot more.

Have you checked out QualityComix February auction? When I read the opening post in this thread, all I could hear in the back of my head was Richard Nixon saying, "I am not a crook."

 

This happened last time I posted something on the JIM #92/Ewert situation. It's kind of like when the girl's boyfriend you like is cheating on her. If you tell her, you're thrown under the bus too for bearing that news.

 

Thanks Jim. I thought you were a little more intelligent than to compare me to Richard Nixon.

[Domo Arigato]

Wouldnt it be wrong according the auction rules of the state of Florida? As far as I know, I have only heard of Texas allowing the house to bid on items

I'm not sure. I was only questioning the broader "shilling is wrong" while "pressing is simply a personal decision" points that where being made. I don't think it's that simple.

[jkrk]

I find the relationship of this thread to Bob Storms latest thread intriguing. People were directing away from static sales and mentioning auctions. Now auctions are getting placed under the microscope.

 

 

Who knows, possibly intentionally?

 

The bottom line is, this all makes me very grateful for the buying I am able to do through comic book shops and local dealers who seem to still be honest folks (or at least the ones I deal with). It also makes me appreciate guys like Storms, Dave Reynolds, Al Stoltz, Terry O'Neil and some others a whole lot more.

Have you checked out QualityComix February auction? When I read the opening post in this thread, all I could hear in the back of my head was Richard Nixon saying, "I am not a crook."

 

This happened last time I posted something on the JIM #92/Ewert situation. It's kind of like when the girl's boyfriend you like is cheating on her. If you tell her, you're thrown under the bus too for bearing that news.

 

Thanks Jim. I thought you were a little more intelligent than to compare me to Richard Nixon.

 

I trust Quality's auctions more than most. There seems to be more reserves than the others. (thumbs u

[kc120us]

If shilling bugs you, then there isn't a single auction format you should ever participate in.

I agree. There are three books I want in the Comic Link auction. I'm not sure I want the aggravation associated with bidding on them to even compete for the right to own them. Take into account other circumstances surrounding the books and I am thinking of passing on them altogether.

 

Jim,

If you are speaking of the Northland X-Men I am selling, I hope you are not insinuating that I am shilling them because I am not nor would I ever. I, as the consignor, have no idea who is bidding on my books nor how many people may be bidding on them. I am as in the dark as anyone else here as to the identity of the bidders.

 

As to previous auctions, i've noticed there is usually a flurry of activity in the begining, a long lull of near zero activity during the middle and another flurry of activity at the end. I've seen this pattern since I first started using comic auctions. Nothing new here.

I know Doc can speak for himself, but I took it to mean that there is funny business going on in these auctions and that funny business causes him to not want to bid at all, regardless of the consignors.

I very much doubt he was targeting you

 

Thanks, Arex. But to that I ask, what funny business? I, as a seller, was not promised any minimum sale price when the auctions close. I have no clue to the inner workings of the auction sale process other than what we see on the website and what is stated on my contract. Many people here are insinuating that the sellers are bidding up their books. Well, this is one seller who can emphatically tell you he is not bidding on any of his auctions.

[dupont2005]

Shilling in Texas auctions is legal to protect the item being sold as at a given time the right buyer might not be there and the item may sell for substantially less than it should.

Then the auction shouldn't even start for substantially less than it should. I don't think shilling is right. I guess if the house is shilling a consigned item, and in the event the house wins and pays up, it's fine. The house bought the item. If the house is shilling house items, that is fishy as hell. We all know shilling can be difficult to detect but I don't see that as a reason to accept it. I will not buy twice from someone who shilled me once. No matter what. Even if my max bid was a price I was willing to pay and the item was something I really wanted, there is a matter of principle involved between the buyer and seller, and a matter of trust that is destroyed through shilling on the sellers behalf. It may or may not be "illegal", but it is not a practice I will encourage either. He can shill, I just won't bid.

[THE_BEYONDER]

This seems to be about more than shilling. With so many examples posted....it appears that Doug is attempting to create inflated artificial values for his inventory( ie: market manipulation).

[namisgr]

How so, if the books that aren't being sold to someone other than Doug also aren't being reported to GPA?