Mac Man Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? I guess terminology has led to confusion... tec 33 is not in a "slump" ...I have said over and over what a great book it is... and there is still demand for the book, but it is so much over valued in most folks asking prices, relative to perceived demand, that the book "appears" to sell at a bargain compared to surrounding issues... to answer your question, overstreet pretty much bumps all tec's each year... what one has to pay attention to is the % from ospg 38 to 39, tec 33 was increased 5.5% or so across all grades (the minimum) from ospg 38 to 39, tec 29 was increased 8.5% or so across all grades from ospg 38 to 39, tec 31 was increased 10% or so across all grades from ospg 38 to 39, tec 35 was increased 17.5% or so across all grades... just bob's way of "correcting" guide prices... he does everything slowly and for the long term but, tec 33 has been #5 for years in terms of "real world value " ...everyone knows ospg is NOT an accurate source for valuation on pre robin tecs (or early actions etc)... so your continued "statement" about it being the 2nd most valuable is invalid and has been for years and years (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 11, 2010 Author Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... Keep in mind of course that they are nowhere close to equivalent in the guide. Without it in front of me, I think Tec #33 is about 3X as valuable as Tec #35. So I'm still curious to see how close they are in terms of FMV because I've heard that Tec #35 goes for about 5X guide. What does Tec #33 go for, 2-3X guide unrestored? I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... as mentioned, tec 33 still sells for over guide!, don't think anyone has ever said it has decreased in price relative to guide, so naturally, it is still increasin, right?...and has as long as I can remember....but because it was already artificially higher in the guide than current demand (relative to surrounding issues) would warrant, it will be increased at the minimum %, while the other issues are given high bumps to try to "true" up (as best as OSPG can), their values (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 11, 2010 Author Share Posted July 11, 2010 but, tec 33 has been #5 for years in terms of "real world value " ...everyone knows ospg is NOT an accurate source for valuation on pre robin tecs (or early actions etc)... so your continued "statement" about it being the 2nd most valuable is invalid and has been for years and years (thumbs u Haven't I been saying it's been the 2nd most valuable according to the guide; in which case I'd be correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat-Hound Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I still think Detective # 33 should be valued 2nd to # 27 because of the origin significance.. Even though the cover is classic in its own right, for some reason the book is behind in popularity compared to issues # 29, #31 and #35 for example.. I still think the demand for the book is still there but not just as popular right now compared to the other three.. It must be the scarcity and the "ever more so" Classic covers of the #29, #31 and # 35 that makes issue #33 fall behind.. Can you imagine the VALUE of Detective # 31 would be if the origin was in that book instead of the # 33 ? Would it be realistic that Overtreet would have the # 31 a $20 Grand book in "good" if this were the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... Keep in mind of course that they are nowhere close to equivalent in the guide. Without it in front of me, I think Tec #33 is about 3X as valuable as Tec #35. So I'm still curious to see how close they are in terms of FMV because I've heard that Tec #35 goes for about 5X guide. What does Tec #33 go for, 2-3X guide unrestored? I'm not sure. about 1.5% guide (thumbs u tec 35, with the 17% increase is actually probably under 5x now (maybe dropped to about 4x)...and, depending on how the guide moves this year (I submitted a LOT of data to help correct the pricing deficiencies), the muliples will change again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I still think Detective # 33 should be valued 2nd to # 27 because of the origin significance.. Even though the cover is classic in its own right, for some reason the book is behind in popularity compared to issues # 29, #31 and #35 for example.. I still think the demand for the book is still there but not just as popular right now compared to the other three.. It must be the scarcity and the "ever more so" Classic covers of the #29, #31 and # 35 that makes issue #33 fall behind.. Can you imagine the VALUE of Detective # 31 would be if the origin was in that book instead of the # 33 ? Would it be realistic that Overtreet would have the # 31 a $20 Grand book in "good" if this were the case? and we are all entitled to our opinions...the problem is that the market has OVERWHELMINGLY responded to the contrary, and thus, the values have moved accordingly (real world) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 11, 2010 Author Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... as mentioned, tec 33 still sells for over guide!, don't think anyone has ever said it has decreased in price relative to guide, so naturally, it is still increasin, right?...and has as long as I can remember....but because it was already artificially higher in the guide than current demand (relative to surrounding issues) would warrant, it will be increased at the minimum %, while the other issues are given high bumps to try to "true" up (as best as OSPG can), their values (thumbs u But even if the OSPG continues to bump the values of Tec #33 and #35 at their current rate (meaning a greater % for #35), wouldn't it take forever for the two to reach an equivalent status? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 but, tec 33 has been #5 for years in terms of "real world value " ...everyone knows ospg is NOT an accurate source for valuation on pre robin tecs (or early actions etc)... so your continued "statement" about it being the 2nd most valuable is invalid and has been for years and years (thumbs u Haven't I been saying it's been the 2nd most valuable according to the guide; in which case I'd be correct? it is listed (at least through last year) as the second most valuable in the price guide, but because we all know it is not (not even close, to be honest, probably 40-50% behind in value to 29 and 31 and maybe 20% behind in value to 35), to continue to bring that point up is "not relevant" to "real world" valuation of the issues because overstreet doesn't correct the guide real world... if he did, it wouldn't be the 2nd highest in the guide, and wouldn't have been for years... so it is like citing an inaccurate source, that you know is inaccurate...it doesn't support your points, it hurts them (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... as mentioned, tec 33 still sells for over guide!, don't think anyone has ever said it has decreased in price relative to guide, so naturally, it is still increasin, right?...and has as long as I can remember....but because it was already artificially higher in the guide than current demand (relative to surrounding issues) would warrant, it will be increased at the minimum %, while the other issues are given high bumps to try to "true" up (as best as OSPG can), their values (thumbs u But even if the OSPG continues to bump the values of Tec #33 and #35 at their current rate (meaning a greater % for #35), wouldn't it take forever for the two to reach an equivalent status? nope, I am hoping they are brought to equal in this year's guide or maybe by next, and exceed in next years (for 29 and 31...it will take bob 5+ years at current rate to get 35 to catch up)... but, it has been a 4-5 year process of getting the guide to reflect the "true market value"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Man Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 (edited) all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... as mentioned, tec 33 still sells for over guide!, don't think anyone has ever said it has decreased in price relative to guide, so naturally, it is still increasin, right?...and has as long as I can remember....but because it was already artificially higher in the guide than current demand (relative to surrounding issues) would warrant, it will be increased at the minimum %, while the other issues are given high bumps to try to "true" up (as best as OSPG can), their values (thumbs u Right, I understand that. I guess the question (as I read it anyhow) seems to point to the need for continual bumping (even if it is at the minimum %) IF the OSPG wants to be an accurate, reliable source? But to be fair, I know that this is an issue ALL fields of comics experience from the OSPG. Do you suppose it is because Overstreet doesn't want to give the impression of a drop in demand by actually correcting the price on this book (which I think might mean a decreased/frozen percentage relative to the other Pre-Robin Tecs)? Edited July 11, 2010 by Mac Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 and that is the problem with the guide...it is just that, " guide" that is still primarily controlled by a few , that are not as "in touch" with the market on certain keys books as they should be... does anyone really think a 9.2 af15 is a 65,000??? etc...does anyone really think that doubling the guide value to 130K (where the book would still eclipse) will do any harm?...to continue to cite the guide as reality on key books, is counter production to reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 11, 2010 Author Share Posted July 11, 2010 I still think Detective # 33 should be valued 2nd to # 27 because of the origin significance.. Even though the cover is classic in its own right, for some reason the book is behind in popularity compared to issues # 29, #31 and #35 for example.. I still think the demand for the book is still there but not just as popular right now compared to the other three.. It must be the scarcity and the "ever more so" Classic covers of the #29, #31 and # 35 that makes issue #33 fall behind.. Can you imagine the VALUE of Detective # 31 would be if the origin was in that book instead of the # 33 ? Would it be realistic that Overtreet would have the # 31 a $20 Grand book in "good" if this were the case? Given my display-name...of course I agree. What Rick has continued to emphasize is that regardless of our personal opinions on the subject, the market as a whole has changed to the extent in which 29, 31, and 35 have become the more popular books. I think the popularity of collecting slabs is a huge part of that but at the same time, Tec #33 has simply fallen out of vogue. I don't find it conincidental that all of a sudden despite years and years of things being very different, Tec #35 has now become so hot that everyone is paying a premium. Tec #33 simply has much more going for it which I think will help sustain its value better in the long run. Tec #35 is driven by a great cover and scarcity...although the scarcity factor has not held down the prices recently as I think we've seen many more Tec #35's for sale than we have in past years. It hasn't mattered as the book is still "hot". Rick mentioned Tec #33 selling for about 1.5X guide and I don't think it would take much to bump that figure up to 2-3X guide, at which point it would surpass #35. But Tec #33 has to become the "hot" book for the market to establish a trend. It has yet to do so but being backed by the fact that it will always be the origin issue, I think that's bound to change in time. The combination of content & classic cover drove Tec #33 for years and years; I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility to see that trend eventually continue years down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 all pre robin tecs with batman on the cover sell over guide...33 included... because 33 had been pushed up higher in the guider moons ago, it doesn't command the multiple that surrounding issues do, but I dont' ever recall seeing a tec 33 blue sell "under" guide.. How close would you place Tec #33 in terms of FMV to #35? I know that you have predicted a continued slump for #33 and that the guide should eventually catch-up by allowing books like #35 to be reflected better. Why do you think it is that the OSPG has continued to bump up Tec #33's value and keep it as the #2 Batman Tec while other books (such as #35) have continued to sell for greater multiples? That's a very good question... as mentioned, tec 33 still sells for over guide!, don't think anyone has ever said it has decreased in price relative to guide, so naturally, it is still increasin, right?...and has as long as I can remember....but because it was already artificially higher in the guide than current demand (relative to surrounding issues) would warrant, it will be increased at the minimum %, while the other issues are given high bumps to try to "true" up (as best as OSPG can), their values (thumbs u Right, I understand that. I guess the question (as I read it anyhow) seems to point to the need for continual bumping (even if it is at the minimum %) IF the OSPG wants to be an accurate, reliable source? But to be fair, I know that this is an issue ALL fields of comics experience from the OSPG. Do you suppose it is because Overstreet doesn't want to give the impression of a drop in demand by actually correcting the price on this book (which I think might mean a decreased/frozen percentage relative to the other Pre-Robin Tecs)? bob explained long ago why he raises (rarely lowers) prices in the guide at a slow and steady pace, even if the market is far evolved from it...it is "his" guide and he will continue ... but, we all know (those of us that collect certain books) what the real world value is...so, the guide should just be one small (and sometimes irrelevant outside of a starting point) part of the valuation equation... I really wish I could run the On line version of ospg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 11, 2010 Author Share Posted July 11, 2010 but, tec 33 has been #5 for years in terms of "real world value " ...everyone knows ospg is NOT an accurate source for valuation on pre robin tecs (or early actions etc)... so your continued "statement" about it being the 2nd most valuable is invalid and has been for years and years (thumbs u Haven't I been saying it's been the 2nd most valuable according to the guide; in which case I'd be correct? it is listed (at least through last year) as the second most valuable in the price guide, but because we all know it is not (not even close, to be honest, probably 40-50% behind in value to 29 and 31 and maybe 20% behind in value to 35), to continue to bring that point up is "not relevant" to "real world" valuation of the issues because overstreet doesn't correct the guide real world... if he did, it wouldn't be the 2nd highest in the guide, and wouldn't have been for years... so it is like citing an inaccurate source, that you know is inaccurate...it doesn't support your points, it hurts them (thumbs u I have made a number of posts on the subject so it is very possible that I'm missing something here...but I believe that when I have brought up the fact that it is 2nd according the the guide, it has been to reference the fact that I feel there to have been a valid reason for it reaching that spot in the first place (even though I've agreed that it is not 2nd according to FMV). So to which context do you feel I have used it in a fashion that has not supported my points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 my last word on the subject (because we are all entitled to form our own opinions based on whatever criteria we choose) is that very few collectors will ague that tec 33 is not "very important" , etc... but the reasons folks collected tec 33 "first" (and tec 35 much later), are no longer primary reasons in our hobby (and this is not just my opinion, but evidenced and supported by the majority of the market collecting these issues)... this has been a 20+ year evolution that won't change any time soon... our market has evolved to the point that importance is sometimes overshadowed by other factors (such as cover, hype, scarcity, grade, value, etc)... now, back to some blueberry cake donuts and coke zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 but, tec 33 has been #5 for years in terms of "real world value " ...everyone knows ospg is NOT an accurate source for valuation on pre robin tecs (or early actions etc)... so your continued "statement" about it being the 2nd most valuable is invalid and has been for years and years (thumbs u Haven't I been saying it's been the 2nd most valuable according to the guide; in which case I'd be correct? it is listed (at least through last year) as the second most valuable in the price guide, but because we all know it is not (not even close, to be honest, probably 40-50% behind in value to 29 and 31 and maybe 20% behind in value to 35), to continue to bring that point up is "not relevant" to "real world" valuation of the issues because overstreet doesn't correct the guide real world... if he did, it wouldn't be the 2nd highest in the guide, and wouldn't have been for years... so it is like citing an inaccurate source, that you know is inaccurate...it doesn't support your points, it hurts them (thumbs u I have made a number of posts on the subject so it is very possible that I'm missing something here...but I believe that when I have brought up the fact that it is 2nd according the the guide, it has been to reference the fact that I feel there to have been a valid reason for it reaching that spot in the first place (even though I've agreed that it is not 2nd according to FMV). So to which context do you feel I have used it in a fashion that has not supported my points? I guess that wasn't my last word, as stated in my previous post it has already been conceeded that years ago, it was the 2nd most valuable...and the reason has been hashed to death...I haven't seen a single person (myself included) state otherwise...but because the way overstreet moves values in the guide, it hasn't been a relevant value (relevant to surrounding issues) in years and years and years... so my point is, there is NO point to continually (as in more than once) bringing it up in any current discussion ...you know the answer, we all do (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 11, 2010 Author Share Posted July 11, 2010 my last word on the subject (because we are all entitled to form our own opinions based on whatever criteria we choose) is that very few collectors will ague that tec 33 is not "very important" , etc... but the reasons folks collected tec 33 "first" (and tec 35 much later), are no longer primary reasons in our hobby (and this is not just my opinion, but evidenced and supported by the majority of the market collecting these issues)... this has been a 20+ year evolution that won't change any time soon... our market has evolved to the point that importance is sometimes overshadowed by other factors (such as cover, hype, scarcity, grade, value, etc)... now, back to some blueberry cake donuts and coke zero Right now, I'm drinking a blueberry sports drink...if that counts. I think that sometimes, you can throw "cover" and "hype" into the same category. That is not to imply that some covers are not worth the hype but rather that...we do see trends of some covers becoming "hot" as I've mentioned; and I think Tec #35 fits into this category. While I'd agree that there are likely to be more copies of Tec #33 than Tec #35, I don't know if the same has been true as to how many copies have been available as of late; as #35's seem to be popping up more often now than it has in previous years. Yet even despite this, Tec #35 has continued to sell better than #33; and I don't think anyone would question there being more demand. Which to me, really brings it down to the cover since we know that the content of #33 is what helped push it past all other Tecs (outside of #27) for many years. To me, a cover (no matter how great) can only continue for so long, to beat another book with a classic cover in its own right, when that other book has content of story that is more important that 99% of all other GA books. My point being...I think Tec #33 has many more attributes to help sustain and increase it's value in the long-run. Both "cover" and "hype" as you have mentioned, have been determining factors that have shaped the actual prices realized in the market...I just don't think it's enough to continue to support the degrees of disparity as time moves forward. (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t3quila Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 my last word on the subject (because we are all entitled to form our own opinions based on whatever criteria we choose) is that very few collectors will ague that tec 33 is not "very important" , etc... but the reasons folks collected tec 33 "first" (and tec 35 much later), are no longer primary reasons in our hobby (and this is not just my opinion, but evidenced and supported by the majority of the market collecting these issues)... this has been a 20+ year evolution that won't change any time soon... our market has evolved to the point that importance is sometimes overshadowed by other factors (such as cover, hype, scarcity, grade, value, etc)... now, back to some blueberry cake donuts and coke zero Right now, I'm drinking a blueberry sports drink...if that counts. I think that sometimes, you can throw "cover" and "hype" into the same category. That is not to imply that some covers are not worth the hype but rather that...we do see trends of some covers becoming "hot" as I've mentioned; and I think Tec #35 fits into this category. While I'd agree that there are likely to be more copies of Tec #33 than Tec #35, I don't know if the same has been true as to how many copies have been available as of late; as #35's seem to be popping up more often now than it has in previous years. Yet even despite this, Tec #35 has continued to sell better than #33; and I don't think anyone would question there being more demand. Which to me, really brings it down to the cover since we know that the content of #33 is what helped push it past all other Tecs (outside of #27) for many years. To me, a cover (no matter how great) can only continue for so long, to beat another book with a classic cover in its own right, when that other book has content of story that is more important that 99% of all other GA books. My point being...I think Tec #33 has many more attributes to help sustain and increase it's value in the long-run. Both "cover" and "hype" as you have mentioned, have been determining factors that have shaped the actual prices realized in the market...I just don't think it's enough to continue to support the degrees of disparity as time moves forward. (thumbs u For Tec 33 to become 2nd most valuable in FMV, CGC and comic grading and placing in slabs would have to end. The origin while important is not where the market is heading. Covers are driving price rises not stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
