Page Quality on CGC Books

[sufunk]

I believe page quality is a better reflection of preservation than the grade.

I put a lot of value into the page quality. As a Rule of Thumb, White pages usually go for a 10% or more premium, while CR/OW go for a discount.

You are correct that it has been debated. It is a matter of personal preference but

for me, I want WHITE pages.

Your white pages now were off-white to white pages yesterday and could very well be cream to off-white pages tomorrow.

 

Not true.

 

I'd like to see pics of the white pages book that resumed to a cow, much less the Many, MANY examples of this. Oh, and also the many, many cow that resubbed to whites (thumbs u

 

 

Page quality changes all the time on resubs. It goes up. It goes down. Believe what you want, Cochise. It makes no difference to me. (thumbs u

 

AKA, you dont have any actual examples (thumbs u

 

yes, it goes up and down just like grades. Once in a blue moon, there is also a HUGE PQ difference on a resub the same way there is with grades like the legendary 4.0 that became a 9.0. That is not the norm like you make it out.

 

To say that a white pages could "VERY WELL" be a cow on a resub is NOT accurate. That implies it happens all the time. It doesn't.

 

If i'm wrong, post the numerous instances of whites becoming cows and vice versa. Short of that, you're wrong. Sorry (thumbs u

Fine, I'm wrong. I've never resubbed any books. Resub away.

 

Since you're the master of resubs and without question right, it should be pretty easy to post the pics of this everyday occurence of cows becoming white and whites becoming cows. I'm sure its happened to you dozens of times alone (thumbs u

 

Post away

 

You've been here, what? Less than two months?

 

And you seem to be taking on a lot of extremely knowledgeable people, with decades of experience behind them, and demanding that they provide you with 'proof'.

 

It's a shame that you want to adopt this approach, as you might otherwise be able to learn stuff.

 

What would i learn? How to be incredibly rude and condescending to people?

 

Are you so used to talking this way to people on here that you dont even realize how insanely rude and condescending ALL of your remarks in this thread have been?

 

Let me recap and see if i have this correct:

 

1) PQ means absolutely nothing as it is completely arbitrary from one day to the next. So much so that CGC themselves cares nothing about PQ and is basically laughing and shaking their heads at anyone who does.

 

2) Anyone that does care about PQ in the books they buy are either "crazy" or "just a label chaser".

 

3) We know this because of the little snippets of conversations you are nice enough to grace us with from the Wizard of Oz himself Haspel.

 

4) No proof if needed to show we are right and you are wrong. We've been here longer and know much more. To challenge that is "a shame" and you'll never learn anything unless you blindly follow what we say.

 

Did I miss anything or thats pretty much the jist of your argument???

[VintageComics]

Overstreet's 40th edition shows 10.0's and 9.9's can only have white pages, and only at the 9.8 level does this guide start to allow for OW/W. I realize CGC has its own unpublished standards. At what grade does CGC knock a book for PQ?

 

I believe one of the Wolverine 1 Limited Series 10.0's is OW/W, so that definitely doesn't match Overstreet.

 

As many people in the TMNT thread have pointed out, I have a 9.8 with OW pages. I'm not sure I've ever seen c/ow on a 9.8 yet.

 

I believe I have seen a 9.8 with c/ow pages.

 

From what I have seen and heard, C/OW can possibly affect the grade if the book is a "tweener" book where the grade is not clear...ie. teeters between two possible grades...although I think this is only the case on a higher grade book.

 

From what I have seen Light Tan to Off White pages will limit the book to 8.5 regardless of how the rest of the books looks. There is the odd book that has graded a 9.0 but that is the exception. There have also been a few books with much higher grades but I believe those ended up being quality control errors that CGC has admitted to.

[PBU-migration]

Perhaps this thread is racist... Where is that funny gif of the kid saying "that's racist" I've seen on here?

 

 

Is that from Wonder Showzen?

[Jeffro.]

 

What would i learn? How to be incredibly rude and condescending to people?

 

Are you so used to talking this way to people on here that you dont even realize how insanely rude and condescending ALL of your remarks in this thread have been?

 

Let me recap and see if i have this correct:

 

1) PQ means absolutely nothing as it is completely arbitrary from one day to the next. So much so that CGC themselves cares nothing about PQ and is basically laughing and shaking their heads at anyone who does.

 

2) Anyone that does care about PQ in the books they buy are either "crazy" or "just a label chaser".

 

3) We know this because of the little snippets of conversations you are nice enough to grace us with from the Wizard of Oz himself Haspel.

 

4) No proof if needed to show we are right and you are wrong. We've been here longer and know much more. To challenge that is "a shame" and you'll never learn anything unless you blindly follow what we say.

 

Did I miss anything or thats pretty much the jist of your argument???

 

No one is suggesting that you blindly follow anything. However, F_T is right about one thing, there are extremely knowledgable and experienced people on the board who have talked to, on numerous occasions, both Borock and Haspel. It would be foolish to "blindly" dismiss that information. It has value. Sounds to me like you don't value it at all. What do you require, taped evidence from Haspel to convince you?

[lizards2]

I can say from cracking out crow books, that some are crow, some ow, some ow/w and some w. Some deserve the fugly notation, some do not. It's too bad there is little quality control in this area by CGC.

 

I have to say a bigger concern to me than PQ is the condition of the cover - I'll take a nice crow with white covers over a white paged book with sun/dust shadows, or where the cover has turned from white to OW or tan.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

 

What would i learn? How to be incredibly rude and condescending to people?

 

Are you so used to talking this way to people on here that you dont even realize how insanely rude and condescending ALL of your remarks in this thread have been?

 

Let me recap and see if i have this correct:

 

1) PQ means absolutely nothing as it is completely arbitrary from one day to the next. So much so that CGC themselves cares nothing about PQ and is basically laughing and shaking their heads at anyone who does.

 

2) Anyone that does care about PQ in the books they buy are either "crazy" or "just a label chaser".

 

3) We know this because of the little snippets of conversations you are nice enough to grace us with from the Wizard of Oz himself Haspel.

 

4) No proof if needed to show we are right and you are wrong. We've been here longer and know much more. To challenge that is "a shame" and you'll never learn anything unless you blindly follow what we say.

 

Did I miss anything or thats pretty much the jist of your argument???

 

No one is suggesting that you blindly follow anything. However, F_T is right about one thing, there are extremely knowledgable and experienced people on the board who have talked to, on numerous occasions, both Borock and Haspel. It would be foolish to "blindly" dismiss that information. It has value. Sounds to me like you don't value it at all. What do you require, taped evidence from Haspel to convince you?

The amount of people who have resubbed books and had PQ differences is astounding. The old label myth, etc.. I take PQ grading with a grain of salt as not many could PQ 5 out of 5 times.

[VintageComics]

No one is suggesting that you blindly follow anything. However, F_T is right about one thing, there are extremely knowledgable and experienced people on the board who have talked to, on numerous occasions, both Borock and Haspel. It would be foolish to "blindly" dismiss that information. It has value. Sounds to me like you don't value it at all. What do you require, taped evidence from Haspel to convince you?

 

I think another valid point to make is that most topics like this have been rehashed a bazillion times with 1000's of posts and literally 12's of threads.

 

Most people who have been here a while and talk about it now simply consolidate all those threads and discussions into a quick reply that might seem a little terse, even though it isn't meant to be.

 

[Jeffro.]

Well, F_T is terse but that's part of his charm.

[Bosco685]

Most people who have been here a while and talk about it now simply consolidate all those threads and discussions into a quick reply that might seem a little terse, even though it isn't meant to be.

 

But if you are saying recently CGC started tightening down on PQ standards, wouldn't that be new information and fresh discussion?

 

[VintageComics]

Well, F_T is terse but that's part of his charm.

 

Very terse, and very charming.

[sufunk]

No, try actually reading my responses. I have no problem with saying PQ isnt nearly as important as grade or that it is not a priority. I agree with that.

 

My problem is a statement like "that white pages book you have today could VERY WELL be a c/ow on a resub tomorrow" and that PQ is completely arbitrary. That is NOT the case.

 

White pages books dont change to cows everyday and vice versa. has it ever happened ? probably i'm sure. Is it incredibly rare? Again, i'm sure it probably is.

 

I have no problem with the argument that PQ isnt nearly as important as grade to CGC. I do have a problem with the argument that PQ is completely arbitrary and VERY WELL could change drastically (w to cow) every time you resub a book. Sorry but thats an argument i need proof, not just someones join date, to believe.

[Jeffro.]

I can say from cracking out crow books, that some are crow, some ow, some ow/w and some w. Some deserve the fugly notation, some do not. It's too bad there is little quality control in this area by CGC.

 

I have to say a bigger concern to me than PQ is the condition of the cover - I'll take a nice crow with white covers over a white paged book with sun/dust shadows, or where the cover has turned from white to OW or tan.

 

I hope you took notes, photographed each book (before and after), and taped personal conversations about each comic with both Haspel and Borock, then had them notarized because if you didn't, it's just anecdotal and a case of all us CGC board thugs gangpiling a n00b.

[VintageComics]

Most people who have been here a while and talk about it now simply consolidate all those threads and discussions into a quick reply that might seem a little terse, even though it isn't meant to be.

 

But if you are saying recently CGC started tightening down on PQ standards, wouldn't that be new information and fresh discussion?

 

 

Sure, and that is a valid point but there has always been some slight variation in grading standards through the past 10 years.

 

 

[Bosco685]

that is a valid point

You had me at "valid point."

 

[cheetah]

I don't fully agree that PQ is mercurial. There are books that are CGC white and then there are books that are freakingly white. Church pedigree books are often white enough that they deserve a 'really, really white' PQ. You see other books occassionally that are so white that there is no doubt they are white.

 

Saying that, the transition between CGC white and CGC ow/w isn't a fixed point and it does vary over time. Even Borock noted that after he left CGC they got harder on PQ and this 'wasn't good.'

 

PQs of slightly brittle and brittle are also pretty solid.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

No, try actually reading my responses. I have no problem with saying PQ isnt nearly as important as grade or that it is not a priority. I agree with that.

 

My problem is a statement like "that white pages book you have today could VERY WELL be a c/ow on a resub tomorrow" and that PQ is completely arbitrary. That is NOT the case.

 

White pages books dont change to cows everyday and vice versa. has it ever happened ? probably i'm sure. Is it incredibly rare? Again, i'm sure it probably is.

 

I have no problem with the argument that PQ isnt nearly as important as grade to CGC. I do have a problem with the argument that PQ is completely arbitrary and VERY WELL could change drastically (w to cow) every time you resub a book. Sorry but thats an argument i need proof, not just someones join date, to believe.

Leave your slabs in a hot room for a summer, it will happen. PQ is very easy to change. To actually achieve "brittle" pages is a whole other story. But it is very easy to lose page quality, to go from white to OW/W could probably be done in a hot summer with no cooling. There is certainly reasons that we have "ideal" temperature controls when trying to preserve any type of news print.

[etanick]

the need to differentiate for a collector drives his or her own "madness".

 

Whether it is PQ and/or the number on the top left and/or how perfect the wrap is....things will never change because he or she need to justify the money spent and the moment he or she smells a debate that lessen the reasons behind his or her "madness", then we have something like this thread.

 

Many of us are guilty of label chasing, moi included and guilty as charged.

 

It always boggle my mind when people talk about PQ as if the book will disintegrate into dust...face it...even books with tan and brittle pages in a slab will outlast all of us and even our children. The old motto of buying what you love instead of all the other reasons will always hold true in the long run....and if you love white pages then enjoy it.

 

I will debate the preservation issue any days since I have proof, thousands of them that storing books in cheap bags in less than ideal environments for 30 years will still maintain white pages. Hell, all the bags are yellowed but the books are just fine.

 

oh god, here go the lectures on the ideal storage to preserve books.

 

 

[VintageComics]

No, try actually reading my responses. I have no problem with saying PQ isnt nearly as important as grade or that it is not a priority. I agree with that.

 

My problem is a statement like "that white pages book you have today could VERY WELL be a c/ow on a resub tomorrow" and that PQ is completely arbitrary. That is NOT the case.

 

White pages books dont change to cows everyday and vice versa. has it ever happened ? probably i'm sure. Is it incredibly rare? Again, i'm sure it probably is.

 

I have no problem with the argument that PQ isnt nearly as important as grade to CGC. I do have a problem with the argument that PQ is completely arbitrary and VERY WELL could change drastically (w to cow) every time you resub a book. Sorry but thats an argument i need proof, not just someones join date, to believe.

 

It's not arbitrary.

 

There is some consistency but there will always be a small (or whatever you want to call it) percentage of books that will change on a resub.

 

It's not an exact science as the coarse label designations (white/oww/ow/c-ow etc) might lead you to believe.

[Foolkiller]

No one is suggesting that you blindly follow anything. However, F_T is right about one thing, there are extremely knowledgable and experienced people on the board who have talked to, on numerous occasions, both Borock and Haspel. It would be foolish to "blindly" dismiss that information. It has value. Sounds to me like you don't value it at all. What do you require, taped evidence from Haspel to convince you?

 

I think another valid point to make is that most topics like this have been rehashed a bazillion times with 1000's of posts and literally 12's of threads.

 

Most people who have been here a while and talk about it now simply consolidate all those threads and discussions into a quick reply that might seem a little terse, even though it isn't meant to be.

 

That's exactly right, as are your other points Roy. I'm certainly not trying to "blow off" completely sufunk, as hearing this for the first time, because frankly, it's not intuitive. With that said, I am simply offering you the benefit of what I've basically been told to my face and I take it the reason they've told me is so that I have a better understanding of both their opinion and the rationale behind why they feel this way.

 

Either way, you don't have to "believe" it or "not believe" it and you are welcome to arrive at your own conclusion.

 

Page quality though, unlike the grading itself, is a bit more arbitrary. I'm not saying that they don't care at all, but I do believe that they don't feel as strongly about it as you might think. Ask him next time you see him, he's very approachable at shows -- he's an articulate guy when it comes to comics and I think he's always given me answers in an extremely forthright way. So has Borock every time I've asked him questions.

[Jeffro.]

No, try actually reading my responses. I have no problem with saying PQ isnt nearly as important as grade or that it is not a priority. I agree with that.

 

My problem is a statement like "that white pages book you have today could VERY WELL be a c/ow on a resub tomorrow" and that PQ is completely arbitrary. That is NOT the case.

 

White pages books dont change to cows everyday and vice versa. has it ever happened ? probably i'm sure. Is it incredibly rare? Again, i'm sure it probably is.

 

I have no problem with the argument that PQ isnt nearly as important as grade to CGC. I do have a problem with the argument that PQ is completely arbitrary and VERY WELL could change drastically (w to cow) every time you resub a book. Sorry but thats an argument i need proof, not just someones join date, to believe.

 

I leave it up to you whether or not you accept the board knowledge. (there is a lot to learn here) I am no expert. I don't claim to be. I have not resubbed dozens of comics so I wouldn't know. However, there are people here who have and I respect what they have to say on the subject. I may not always agree with it but I also do not dismiss it out of hand either.