Page Quality on CGC Books

[VintageComics]

I don't fully agree that PQ is mercurial. There are books that are CGC white and then there are books that are freakingly white. Church pedigree books are often white enough that they deserve a 'really, really white' PQ. You see other books occassionally that are so white that there is no doubt they are white.

 

Sure, but there are San Fran and Vancouver books which are freakish white. Whiter than the Churches...so it's all about finding a median way to assess page quality, and it is those borderline or fringe books will change upon reassessment.

 

I talked to some graders and they thought the Church books were white until they saw the Vancouver books. The realized they didn't know what freakish white was until they saw those.

 

It's relative to perception because there is no actual point of reference (ie. a color snapshot of what the PQ was in 1940).

[lizards2]

I can say from cracking out crow books, that some are crow, some ow, some ow/w and some w. Some deserve the fugly notation, some do not. It's too bad there is little quality control in this area by CGC.

 

I have to say a bigger concern to me than PQ is the condition of the cover - I'll take a nice crow with white covers over a white paged book with sun/dust shadows, or where the cover has turned from white to OW or tan.

 

I hope you took notes, photographed each book (before and after), and taped personal conversations about each comic with both Haspel and Borock, then had them notarized because if you didn't, it's just anecdotal and a case of all us CGC board thugs gangpiling a n00b.

:: True, dat. My collecting is for myself. I crack books to integrate them into my collection, and have never subbed or resubbed to CGC, nor do I travel in those circles. I can just tell you from personal experience that PQ is all over the board with CGC books, and varies so much from crow up that no one should take CGC's opinion of PQ very seriously.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

The always insightful BIP comics CGC page quality chart

[sufunk]

No, try actually reading my responses. I have no problem with saying PQ isnt nearly as important as grade or that it is not a priority. I agree with that.

 

My problem is a statement like "that white pages book you have today could VERY WELL be a c/ow on a resub tomorrow" and that PQ is completely arbitrary. That is NOT the case.

 

White pages books dont change to cows everyday and vice versa. has it ever happened ? probably i'm sure. Is it incredibly rare? Again, i'm sure it probably is.

 

I have no problem with the argument that PQ isnt nearly as important as grade to CGC. I do have a problem with the argument that PQ is completely arbitrary and VERY WELL could change drastically (w to cow) every time you resub a book. Sorry but thats an argument i need proof, not just someones join date, to believe.

 

I leave it up to you whether or not you accept the board knowledge. (there is a lot to learn here) I am no expert. I don't claim to be. I have not resubbed dozens of comics so I wouldn't know. However, there are people here who have and I respect what they have to say on the subject. I may not always agree with it but I also do not dismiss it out of hand either.

 

I'm not dismissing it out of hand. If people are saying that PQ can and does drastically change from white to cow all the time, i want to see proof of that.

 

Like i said, i'm sure it has happened a few times out of thousands and thousands of resubs. My issue is with the original statement that my whites pages book could "very well be a cow on a resub tomorrow".

 

Maybe i'm misinterpreting the use of "VERY WELL" but to me that implies that it happens all the time and is a pretty common occurrence. I havent seen that or heard that before so before i believe that, i want to see multiple examples, not just a story of how someone heard it happened once upon a time.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I believe page quality is a better reflection of preservation than the grade.

I put a lot of value into the page quality. As a Rule of Thumb, White pages usually go for a 10% or more premium, while CR/OW go for a discount.

You are correct that it has been debated. It is a matter of personal preference but

for me, I want WHITE pages.

Your white pages now were off-white to white pages yesterday and could very well be cream to off-white pages tomorrow.

 

Not true.

 

I'd like to see pics of the white pages book that resumed to a cow, much less the Many, MANY examples of this. Oh, and also the many, many cow that resubbed to whites (thumbs u

 

 

Page quality changes all the time on resubs. It goes up. It goes down. Believe what you want, Cochise. It makes no difference to me. (thumbs u

 

AKA, you dont have any actual examples (thumbs u

 

yes, it goes up and down just like grades. Once in a blue moon, there is also a HUGE PQ difference on a resub the same way there is with grades like the legendary 4.0 that became a 9.0. That is not the norm like you make it out.

 

To say that a white pages could "VERY WELL" be a cow on a resub is NOT accurate. That implies it happens all the time. It doesn't.

 

If i'm wrong, post the numerous instances of whites becoming cows and vice versa. Short of that, you're wrong. Sorry (thumbs u

Fine, I'm wrong. I've never resubbed any books. Resub away.

 

Since you're the master of resubs and without question right, it should be pretty easy to post the pics of this everyday occurence of cows becoming white and whites becoming cows. I'm sure its happened to you dozens of times alone (thumbs u

 

Post away

 

You've been here, what? Less than two months?

 

And you seem to be taking on a lot of extremely knowledgeable people, with decades of experience behind them, and demanding that they provide you with 'proof'.

 

It's a shame that you want to adopt this approach, as you might otherwise be able to learn stuff.

 

What would i learn? How to be incredibly rude and condescending to people?

 

Are you so used to talking this way to people on here that you dont even realize how insanely rude and condescending ALL of your remarks in this thread have been?

 

Let me recap and see if i have this correct:

 

1) PQ means absolutely nothing as it is completely arbitrary from one day to the next. So much so that CGC themselves cares nothing about PQ and is basically laughing and shaking their heads at anyone who does.

 

2) Anyone that does care about PQ in the books they buy are either "crazy" or "just a label chaser".

 

3) We know this because of the little snippets of conversations you are nice enough to grace us with from the Wizard of Oz himself Haspel.

 

4) No proof if needed to show we are right and you are wrong. We've been here longer and know much more. To challenge that is "a shame" and you'll never learn anything unless you blindly follow what we say.

 

Did I miss anything or thats pretty much the jist of your argument???

 

(1) Nowhere did I say that CGC doesn't care or are laughing...that was another poster.

 

(2) Nowhere did I state that people who value PQ are 'crazy' or 'label chasers'.

 

(3) Nowhere did I say I'd talked to Haspel or Borock...that was somebody else entirely.

 

(4) Nowhere did I say 'you'll never learn anything unless you blindly follow what we say'. Nowhere. I simply suggested that you might want to take on board some of the stuff being revealed here.

 

Oh, and...

 

(5) If you think this is me being 'insanely rude and condescending', that is certainly something you don't know much about.

[joeypost]

I have 2 resubs on their way to CGC right now, one a ow/w and one white. We'll see what they come back.

 

By definition, a resub is hoping for a differed result but to imply that PQ is completely arbitrary, is a little much.

 

The truth is it is a little closer to being arbitrary than a science.

 

I have had CRM/OW books come back OW/W but never white. These are all old label books and books within a specific time period of the old label.

 

I had a Hulk #2 go from White to OW/W on s resub. The pages were blinding they were so clean. Yet the PQ was downgraded.

 

After re-subbing thousands of books I have never seen a book get anything worse than CRM/OW if they started as CRM/OW to begin with. The PQ downgrade is not as rare as you would think. Going from a lesser PQ to a higher one is the rarity. It happens but only if you know what to look for. Even with some who I would consider pro's at detecting a books ability to be upgraded the formula is not 100%. Probably closer to 60%. It is always a gamble. Always.

[sufunk]

You guys do realize that you are jumping on my case for not believing that white pages changes to cow pages routinely and vice versa even though all of you but watson agree that they dont routinely change that drastically, right???

 

I've never said ANYTHING in this thread about PQ other than it isnt completely arbitrary and doesnt routinely change that drastically as drwatson stated (thumbs u

[Foolkiller]

You guys do realize that you are jumping on my case for not believing that white pages changes to cow pages routinely and vice versa even though all of you but watson agree that they dont routinely change that drastically, right???

 

I've never said ANYTHING in this thread about PQ other than it isnt completely arbitrary and doesnt routinely change that drastically as drwatson stated (thumbs u

 

But nobody said "completely" arbitrary. I said "quite" arbitrary (and it is). As to routinely changing, I think what people are saying is that if you do a high volume of subs (as joey does) there's a good chance to see a lot of variance.

[sufunk]

I have 2 resubs on their way to CGC right now, one a ow/w and one white. We'll see what they come back.

 

By definition, a resub is hoping for a differed result but to imply that PQ is completely arbitrary, is a little much.

 

The truth is it is a little closer to being arbitrary than a science.

 

I have had CRM/OW books come back OW/W but never white. These are all old label books and books within a specific time period of the old label.

 

I had a Hulk #2 go from White to OW/W on s resub. The pages were blinding they were so clean. Yet the PQ was downgraded.

 

After re-subbing thousands of books I have never seen a book get anything worse than CRM/OW if they started as CRM/OW to begin with. The PQ downgrade is not as rare as you would think. Going from a lesser PQ to a higher one is the rarity. It happens but only if you know what to look for. Even with some who I would consider pro's at detecting a books ability to be upgraded the formula is not 100%. Probably closer to 60%. It is always a gamble. Always.

 

That statement i agree 100% with Joey and would have had ZERO problem if that is what would have been said at the beginning.

 

I said i wanted white pages and drwatson said "you realize that white pages book could very well be a ow/w and then a cow on resubs right???"

 

That is the only thing i disagree with. White does not routinely change to cow and cows dont routinely change to white. THAT i dont believe without multiple examples.

[Foolkiller]

I have 2 resubs on their way to CGC right now, one a ow/w and one white. We'll see what they come back.

 

By definition, a resub is hoping for a differed result but to imply that PQ is completely arbitrary, is a little much.

 

The truth is it is a little closer to being arbitrary than a science.

 

I have had CRM/OW books come back OW/W but never white. These are all old label books and books within a specific time period of the old label.

 

I had a Hulk #2 go from White to OW/W on s resub. The pages were blinding they were so clean. Yet the PQ was downgraded.

 

After re-subbing thousands of books I have never seen a book get anything worse than CRM/OW if they started as CRM/OW to begin with. The PQ downgrade is not as rare as you would think. Going from a lesser PQ to a higher one is the rarity. It happens but only if you know what to look for. Even with some who I would consider pro's at detecting a books ability to be upgraded the formula is not 100%. Probably closer to 60%. It is always a gamble. Always.

 

That statement i agree 100% with Joey and would have had ZERO problem if that is what would have been said at the beginning.

 

I said i wanted white pages and drwatson said "you realize that white pages book could very well be a ow/w and then a cow on resubs right???"

 

That is the only thing i disagree with. White does not routinely change to cow and cows dont routinely change to white. THAT i dont believe without multiple examples.

 

I think that most people would have to agree with that.

[sufunk]

You guys do realize that you are jumping on my case for not believing that white pages changes to cow pages routinely and vice versa even though all of you but watson agree that they dont routinely change that drastically, right???

 

I've never said ANYTHING in this thread about PQ other than it isnt completely arbitrary and doesnt routinely change that drastically as drwatson stated (thumbs u

 

But nobody said "completely" arbitrary. I said "quite" arbitrary (and it is). As to routinely changing, I think what people are saying is that if you do a high volume of subs (as joey does) there's a good chance to see a lot of variance.

 

I agree, thats the whole point of resubs, to get a different grade/PQ. Obviously PQ isnt an exact science just like grading isnt and things can change on a resub with a different grader.

 

My only issue is with the degree of variance. I've never seen cows become white or white become cows unless they sit in your trunk all summer. Drwatson said it "very well" could happen which implies it happens regualrly. I want proof of THAT before i believe it.

[Comicopolis]

Never ask for proof on the CGC boards.

[chrisco37]

I've only ever resubbed one book.

 

On the resub, the book went from LT/OW to OW. (Timmay mentioned this early in this thread).

 

That was all the evidence I needed regarding "PQ Premiums" and the arbitrary nature of PQ assignment.

 

I was never a "PQ snob" to begin with though. If there are two books, identical grade, one OW and one CR/OW, I'd buy the one that was better centered.

[Foolkiller]

You guys do realize that you are jumping on my case for not believing that white pages changes to cow pages routinely and vice versa even though all of you but watson agree that they dont routinely change that drastically, right???

 

I've never said ANYTHING in this thread about PQ other than it isnt completely arbitrary and doesnt routinely change that drastically as drwatson stated (thumbs u

 

But nobody said "completely" arbitrary. I said "quite" arbitrary (and it is). As to routinely changing, I think what people are saying is that if you do a high volume of subs (as joey does) there's a good chance to see a lot of variance.

 

I agree, thats the whole point of resubs, to get a different grade/PQ. Obviously PQ isnt an exact science just like grading isnt and things can change on a resub with a different grader.

 

My only issue is with the degree of variance. I've never seen cows become white or white become cows unless they sit in your trunk all summer. Drwatson said it "very well" could happen which implies it happens regualrly. I want proof of THAT before i believe it.

 

Okay and that's fair. But I want to remind you that you posted -- and the reason I stepped in -- is that you only want "white" pages and would pay less for "ow/w".

 

If that's the case, then you aren't just talking about this huge variance swing, it's more than that. I said at the onset that it's not likely you see extreme ends of the spectrum, but that there are 1 or 2 steps where you can see variance. So I am disagreeing with your model that it is wise to pay a premium for white, when it could be o/w or ow/w OR that you wouldn't pay the same for an ow/w book. Because the reality is, it's just a label designation and with those ranges, you can get a tremendous amount of variance on resub, so I have questions about the ultimate accuracy of the designation.

 

And that's what I was commenting on.

[Count]

I keep thinking of this book :shrug:

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

Do you think if it gets subbed enough times it'll come back as a white pager?

 

[Count]

Yup

[Comicopolis]

Yup

 

We'll need to see some proof though.

[sufunk]

Personally, i'd threaten to sue until it was restored to lt/ow

[sufunk]

You guys do realize that you are jumping on my case for not believing that white pages changes to cow pages routinely and vice versa even though all of you but watson agree that they dont routinely change that drastically, right???

 

I've never said ANYTHING in this thread about PQ other than it isnt completely arbitrary and doesnt routinely change that drastically as drwatson stated (thumbs u

 

But nobody said "completely" arbitrary. I said "quite" arbitrary (and it is). As to routinely changing, I think what people are saying is that if you do a high volume of subs (as joey does) there's a good chance to see a lot of variance.

 

I agree, thats the whole point of resubs, to get a different grade/PQ. Obviously PQ isnt an exact science just like grading isnt and things can change on a resub with a different grader.

 

My only issue is with the degree of variance. I've never seen cows become white or white become cows unless they sit in your trunk all summer. Drwatson said it "very well" could happen which implies it happens regualrly. I want proof of THAT before i believe it.

 

Okay and that's fair. But I want to remind you that you posted -- and the reason I stepped in -- is that you only want "white" pages and would pay less for "ow/w".

 

If that's the case, then you aren't just talking about this huge variance swing, it's more than that. I said at the onset that it's not likely you see extreme ends of the spectrum, but that there are 1 or 2 steps where you can see variance. So I am disagreeing with your model that it is wise to pay a premium for white, when it could be o/w or ow/w OR that you wouldn't pay the same for an ow/w book. Because the reality is, it's just a label designation and with those ranges, you can get a tremendous amount of variance on resub, so I have questions about the ultimate accuracy of the designation.

 

And that's what I was commenting on.

 

I'm not saying it's "wise" to pay a premium for white pages, i only said that is what I do. For me, i WANT white pages if at all possible, just like i want the highest grade i can reasonably afford. I'll pay more for white and less as the PQ goes down. I'm not saying that is what anyone else should do, just thats what I prefer.

 

Personally, that is my model and how i'll spend my money on books i want. If it's white pages, i'll pay at or above GPA. ow/w, i'll pay maybe at GPA but look for a little below. ow, i'm not paying GPA, i want below for an ow. cow, to me should be well below GPA.

 

Of course, this also depends on the book. I mainly collect SA Marvels and for those cow is not acceptable to me. There are a million and 1 white or ow/w SA Marvels so i want at least ow/w 99% of the time.

 

The few times i go outside SA Marvels, lower PQ may be acceptable. I got a SC22 with c/ow PQ because for that book, cow is more than acceptable. Anything higher and the the prices are thru the roof IF you can even find it. That isnt the case for SA Marvels.

 

To each his own. If someone wants white pages and will pay more for it,thats their choice. If someone is perfectly happy with c/ow books, thats their choice as well.