Does CGC have the moral responsiblity of keeping records of their work?

[chrisco37]

It'll just never, ever happen.

 

Way too much money to be made on the press and resub.

 

Even if they wanted to, as LordRahl pointed out, it's just impractical. It also adds time and expense to their process with no likely expectation of higher sales, which means they'd just have to raise grading prices to implement it.

 

Yep.

 

[sufunk]

No.

 

+1

 

This really is ridiculous. A "title" to 1k books should HAVE to be passed? How exactly is anyone going to police that?

 

By your thinking it will be policed because people will not pay as much for the book without the "title". You cant really be naive enough to believe that. As others have pointed out, people could care less what a book looks like as long as the number on the upper left of the slab matches what they want. You really think people wont pay BIG money for 9.6's and 9.8's because the book doesnt have a "title" of ownership and previous pressing to go with it???

 

People would buy the books with no history day and night as long as they were HG enough (thumbs u

 

I must be dense because i just dont understand this outrage and getting so emotional over it. Unless you are HEAVILY invested in HG books or had your top census book taken away by a pressed book, what does it matter? As i said in the other thread rocketeer was freaking out in, wether that FF #4 is a 9.4 or a 9.6 its WAY out of my league so i could care less what it got pressed up to

[vane]

Ok,..the issue of pressing is never going to go away,..and frankly I don't give a dump whether a book is pressed or not,..what does get me infuriated is watching the same high grade books get pumped up bigger and bigger each year,...it's obscene that someone can buy a book for 25K and a month later sell it as a better book for 50k,...

 

...CGC started this circus and I feel they have a responsibility to the hobby to control it,....so why can't CGC books come with a statement of ownership?...like a title or a deed,...and when it gets sold the title changes hands and CGC gets updated of the sale,...call me crazy but I would like to know the history of a book I just paid thousands of dollars for,...is it fool proof?...no, but it's a start,...at least it would give buyers the advantage of deciding if they want to buy a high priced book based on it's history,...of decide not to because of it's lack of history,...

 

...think about when you buy a luxary used car,...most come with a complete history of service and repair,..would you buy a 50K used Mercedes without a log record?,..

 

 

What you're asking for is more man power and that means rising CGC fees.

 

CGC started what circus??? Without CGC I'll probably be paying comic books that has restoration without me knowing it.

[VintageComics]

I'm guessing this thread was started based on the FF #4 CGC 9.6 from the other thread.

 

The book was owned by a person who didn't care about pressed/upgraded books, it was sold through me to another person who didn't care about pressed/upgraded books and it was auctioned off and bought by a 3rd person likely who doesn't care about pressed/upgraded books (I'm hypothesizing as I don't know who bought it ultimately but based on the people that would collect an FF #4 in high grade I assume the majority of them know about pressing and upgrading).

 

If the majority of people who would collect a book like that in that grade/price range don't care then who would care?

 

The people who would be looking to upgrade the book, that's who.

 

 

There is more than just one side to an economic model and for every person that wants a book that has not been upgraded, there will be another who does.

 

Ok,..the issue of pressing is never going to go away,..and frankly I don't give a dump whether a book is pressed or not,..what does get me infuriated is watching the same high grade books get pumped up bigger and bigger each year,...it's obscene that someone can buy a book for 25K and a month later sell it as a better book for 50k,...

 

...CGC started this circus and I feel they have a responsibility to the hobby to control it,....so why can't CGC books come with a statement of ownership?...like a title or a deed,...and when it gets sold the title changes hands and CGC gets updated of the sale,...call me crazy but I would like to know the history of a book I just paid thousands of dollars for,...is it fool proof?...no, but it's a start,...at least it would give buyers the advantage of deciding if they want to buy a high priced book based on it's history,...of decide not to because of it's lack of history,...

 

CGC did not start the circus. Hate the people who are paying those prices. The hobby has been the same since the first time a book worth a dime sold for a dollar. Throughout history people have ripped on other people who raise the bar with the prices they pay for comics.

 

$500 was crazy money for an AF #15 at one time but when the first one sold for $50,000 all of a sudden anyone that owned was for more than 10 years was a genius.

 

Outrageous prices form outrageous emotions, unfortunately. Both good and bad.

 

Comics are a relatively new hobby compared to coins, but it's the coin model that comics are built on. Grading, upgrading, auctions, etc. Comics are literally riding on the coat tails of coins.

 

Pretty sure it won't be long before there is a grading system that divides between 9.0/9.2/9.4 etc.

 

If anyone really wants to stop upgrades, just "mannup" (thank you Mitch Mhedy for the phrase) and buy the book before it gets upgraded.

 

Otherwise, it's a free market and an open game for everyone to play. That's the reality of it.

 

...think about when you buy a luxary used car,...most come with a complete history of service and repair,..would you buy a 50K used Mercedes without a log record?,..

 

Apples and oranges on so many different levels.

 

If there is a problem with a car it can kill people. Comics, not so much. 16 or 20 leaves of paper don't do as much damage as a 5000 lb projectile.

 

Comics are not generally status symbols, cars are.

 

Cars are multidimensional and layered, and a lot more expensive to repair than to just get a complete one. They are greater than the sum of their parts and much more difficult and expensive to repair than comics.

 

I don't want to get dragged into another debate on this. It's been hashed out ad naseum while you were gone.

 

 

The bottom line to me is that it's just simple economics in a hobby finding a balance with people trying to figure out where they fit in, in the grand scheme. Nothing more.

[seanfingh]

[VintageComics]

 

You love listening to me pontificate.

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

You love listening to me pontificate.

 

 

More like i am inured to it.

[VintageComics]

 

You love listening to me pontificate.

 

 

More like i am inured to it.

 

A little red wine and you are enamoured by it.

[Mister_Comics]

The way I see it its one of those things they should of started from the get-go. All they had to do was put the submitters name on the label. It wouldn't matter if it was submitted by a private collector or business, the name could have been added to the labels. And each time the book was re-submitted the next name could be added to the list. A nice way to have some history on a book.

 

Two things make this impracticle. The list of owners getting longer and lost history on books that are un-slabbed.

 

[cd4ever]

No they do not.

 

 

[Rocketeer]

...I never said put the owner's name on the label,..you all jumped and assumed that,..I said a separate document that acts as a title for the book,...you would submitt the title not the book upon purchase, and have the ownership name updated and transfered,...

[DrWatson]

Who's going to do that? People can't even keep up with pedigree certificates... or car titles for that matter.

[Chespirito]

I think you should be able to encapsulate with COAs aaaand have cgc cases with NG identifier upon request

[G.A.tor]

sounds good on paper, but won't ever happen

[Rocketeer]

Who's going to do that? People can't even keep up with pedigree certificates... or car titles for that matter.

...well I always get a car title when I buy a car,...I think its illegal to sell one without a transfer of title in most if not all states, so I can't speak for people who operate illegally,...and I think you would be surprised at how many people would want a title on a book as well,...you are all taking alot of liberty here speaking on behalf of all the people who buy high grade books when you say they don't care if they have been pressed,..I personally do not,..

 

..as for the cost,...I don't think that most people would object to paying a minimal transfer fee to CGC,...say $5.00,.a small amount for a purchase of $1,000.00..

 

...let's be honest,..it's not that it can't be done,...sellers don't want it to be done,...the poor poor sellers who are thanklessly pressing books so they can satisfy the greed of high grade dealers,...

 

...it's the same with meth dealers,...they are not responsible for drug abuse,...they only make meth cause the demand is sooo darn high and the users want it so badly,...they don't care if it will kill them,..they just want more meth,...

[yecul]

What they should do is stamp the inside cover of each submitted book to make tracking easy and conclusive.

[VintageComics]

...it's the same with meth dealers,...they are not responsible for drug abuse,...they only make meth cause the demand is sooo darn high and the users want it so badly,...they don't care if it will kill them,..they just want more meth,...

 

Comics don't kill people. Sometimes ex wives do, though.

 

[VintageComics]

What they should do is stamp the inside cover of each submitted book to make tracking easy and conclusive.

 

It's been discussed in detail on here. Most collectors don't want random markings on their expensive books.

[shadroch]

They can't possibly know who a raw comic would belong to. People send comics in to be graded through third parties. An impossibly large database. Privacy issues. etc..

 

...and that book would have an open past,...and that would reflect the price of that book on the open market,...given the choice would you buy a NM with a complete history for 5k of one without it?....

 

How can CGC possibly know who has owned a comic in the past?

 

they can't that's the whole point,..however a new submission would have the original owner's name,..and I know that anyone can sub a book for someone else,...but again you would have the choice of buying a book that has no recorded past,...you take the risk,...and I'm not talking about the average book,...I'm talking about books that have 1 thousand dollar value or more,...

 

I'm still not following. What do you mean it would have the "original" owners name? All CGC can know is who is submitting that particular book right then. Say that book gets sold, submitted through a third party, etc. all they can know is who is submitting that book right then. Even if the same person sends the same comic twice, how can they know whether or not it's the same book?

 

There is no practical way of doing what Rocketeer is suggesting. All CGC could tell you is who the last submitter was. But beyond that, the entire premise is flawed IMO based on the fact that CGC does not have any moral obligations beyond giving you what you paid for (a third party grade and resto check), even if there was a practical way of doing what he's suggesting.

 

 

An invisible serial number would go along way towards stopping the press and resub nonsense, but its certainly not in CGCs best interest to do this.

Then the question is oes a company have an obligation to the hobby or does it exist simply to wring out every last penny from its client base.

[seanfingh]

They can't possibly know who a raw comic would belong to. People send comics in to be graded through third parties. An impossibly large database. Privacy issues. etc..

 

...and that book would have an open past,...and that would reflect the price of that book on the open market,...given the choice would you buy a NM with a complete history for 5k of one without it?....

 

How can CGC possibly know who has owned a comic in the past?

 

they can't that's the whole point,..however a new submission would have the original owner's name,..and I know that anyone can sub a book for someone else,...but again you would have the choice of buying a book that has no recorded past,...you take the risk,...and I'm not talking about the average book,...I'm talking about books that have 1 thousand dollar value or more,...

 

I'm still not following. What do you mean it would have the "original" owners name? All CGC can know is who is submitting that particular book right then. Say that book gets sold, submitted through a third party, etc. all they can know is who is submitting that book right then. Even if the same person sends the same comic twice, how can they know whether or not it's the same book?

 

There is no practical way of doing what Rocketeer is suggesting. All CGC could tell you is who the last submitter was. But beyond that, the entire premise is flawed IMO based on the fact that CGC does not have any moral obligations beyond giving you what you paid for (a third party grade and resto check), even if there was a practical way of doing what he's suggesting.

 

 

An invisible serial number would go along way towards stopping the press and resub nonsense, but its certainly not in CGCs best interest to do this.

Then the question is oes a company have an obligation to the hobby or does it exist simply to wring out every last penny from its client base.

 

Or the question might be if a high enough percentage of their clientele couldn't care less about pressing, why should they?