Wizard First Program - Not April's Fools

[Marvelous]

Who is going to be the first to buy a Wizard First CGC 10.0 and crack the slab and re-submit through regular CGC to see if it gets a CGC 10.0? Hopefully, some reputable dealer does this just as a test.

[PovertyRow]

Obviously, this has been in the works for a while (see attached).

 

Longer than any of us realize!

 

[Mr. Zipper]

I think the guys at CGG are finally having a good day today!

 

Well, it certainly deflates those that bludgeon CGG with the "CGC has integrity, impartial blind grading, etc" arguement.

 

I always tried to stay open-minded, but between the CGG PVC issue, and the CGC Wizard nonsense, they both have black eyes in my book. I've been readying some books for submission... I think I'll hold off for now. The CGG PVC holder bothers me, and the forever wait from CGC bothers me as well. I don't know what I'll do going forward. Mylars have worked for me for the better part of 30 years so far, I can live without slabs for a while longer.

 

[chrisco37]

As others have stated, the problem lies not in manufacturing collectibles; Wizard has been doing this for awhile now - Wizard 1/2 issues, Ace, etc...

 

Someone mentioned (maybe Wormboy) that he had questions about the graders knowing who submitted what. Based on my brief visit and tour, I can tell you that (under the current system), the graders could NOT know who submittted what.

 

It is quite possible that they may get a "head's up" that Heritage/Ewert/Metro (sorry Vince, just using your name b/c you're one of the big boys) is about to submit a large order, but they would have no way of knowing when they were grading those books.

 

The problem IS that the graders (if they're different or the same guys) WILL know that the books are from Wizard. No "normal" book would get a 9.5. In order for a book to get that grade, it would have to be a Wizard book!

 

I think it is a bad, bad idea for CGC.

[awe4one]

Using a different, broader scale further differentiates standard CGC grading with the Wizard product. That's a good thing!

 

No...it's far from a good thing....

 

CGC is validating a brand new grading scale dictated by company who just so happens to put out, arguably, the most popular price guide on Modern comics. They are essentially giving these new slabbed comics, comics that will see the street long before normal customers' submissions, the CGC stamp of approval using non-CGC grading criteria. All in the hopes of manipulating the Modern market into buying these "manufactured collectibles".

 

You honestly don't see the problem with this? The potential problems are smacking me in face as well as gving me a classic case of early 90s deja vu. I thought the OS 9.2 change was bad......this is far worse IMO......

 

Jim

[Foolkiller]

Actually Supa, there's no way I would make the same decision.

 

1) Probably the biggest criticism of CGC is the often unfounded accusation that certain parties (Mile High, Heritage, metro etc.) get special treatment on their books. Until now, it was just that speculation... and Steve said that when books are graded he had no idea of the source of the book... which I have always believed, especially since I had seen their original set up in Jersey. Although a siginifcant profit right now, what happens is that as confidence is eroded in the marketplace, those consumers who were buying up CGC products might start feeling like the books in the holder aren't always graded accurately, and as confidence in the product lessens, so too will the demand for CGC books and thus the need for CGC as company. Someone will undoubtedly rise up to take their place as CGC has demonstrated that there is a strong demand for certified books, but the way they are perceived to currently be doing business means that many consumers will believe, and now there is some evidence for, some companies getting preferential treatment... even if Wizard isn't, in truth, getting any.

 

2) CGC is a company whose basic commodity they are trading on is their credibility. I said in one of my first posts ever on the boards, Steve was a standup guy long before CGC and remains so in my eyes. This was a business decision, and what this decision does is open you up to large number of people believing that your number commodity is questionable. The whole point of CGC is that they are unbiased and independent when they look at a comic book. It is what is. Not because someone in particular has the book. I'm sure as a company, they know down the line there is a finite supply of older books to submit... eventually people will run out of high grade books to keep supplying... so how do we continuously generate a need for CGC and the product... well... in combination, you have to have things like signature series and a reliance on having a flow or a market for slabbed moderns. You have to create value around it. This was CGC's way of addressing to some degree that concern.

 

I would have turned Wizard down on this and offered, at best, simply allowing them to submit books in large quantity -- perhaps even allowing them a little faster turnaround on their books... not that it would be better but grading at a modified scale and changing the rules strikes me as basically unfair. I am not against capitalism... but I am against going against what was the basic tenet of the company when it started.

[wormboy]

I was mistaken, they were economy. I apologize. But 4 months?!

[AlexH]

This has to be a continued joke. I don't even know how to effectively articulate how bad of an idea this would be for Wizard and CGC to do this. Has anyone called Wizard to verify this and if it is a joke enough is enough.

 

No Wizard store

 

Holy cash cow Batman!

[Mr. Zipper]

one word forumites......CAPITALISM like it or not, you'd do the same thing in CGC shoes.

 

Gotta disagree with you here, Supa.

 

Capitalism does not mean making money by any means necessary or with any partner available.

 

WISE capitalists choose their partners, endorsements and alliances very carefully, and closely analyze what effect these relationships will have on their current customer base and business relationships .

[garthgantu]

If this is true, I am definitely out. I've been on the edge of just dropping comic collecting, and waiting out the inevitable storm, but the Wizard First BS coupled with Bob Overstreet racking 9.2 prices to the stratosphere, are looking like the final straws.

 

I've learned to trust my intuition in these matters, and it's high time to get out of collecting for a bit, and just sell my excess books.

 

New theory: CGC is doing this Wizard deal just to drive JC outta the biz! Seems like a lot of trouble to go to, but there it is...

 

New theory 2: CGC is doing this simply to obfuscate the situation re: the rampant "clean, press and resubmit" activity... again, a lot of trouble to go to, but if it gets us to stop harping on the C, P+R phenomenon, it might just be worth it on some level...

[Rip]

[minutekev@50]

So similar to the early 90s it's pathetic...Wizard was built on pushing Image (Liefeld, McFarlane, etc.) and feeding into the collector mentality.

 

Now, we've got manufactured CGC comics, which now appear to be the die-cut, chrome, gold, foil covered collectible of the millenium.

 

It's like something indicates to the collective minds in the comics industry that things are on an upswing so we 'might as well go ahead and flush all that good will and cosumer confidence down the drain!'

[Red Hook]

I think CGC realized that their future is in the grading of moderns of which there is an infinite horizon, vs the grading of older books, of which there is definitely a limited number. Eventually the golden, silver, bronze submissions are going to slow, whethter that is in 2, 3, 4 or 5 years. To continue to make plans for expansion of staff, facilities, etc, CGC must have felt it had to solidfy a relationship with a company like Wizard.

 

Do I sound dumber than a monkey's butt or what?

[Foolkiller]

no you don't redhook... read my post above... i completely agree with you.

[texasknight]

Ok, I read through 9 of 12 pages on this thread.. I think thats enough to give my opinion..

If you don't like it, no big deal, it's just my opinion, and not a stated fact...

1) If you don't like the Wizard First program, then simply do not submit any MARVEL comics that have been issued after the start of this program since the Wizard First program will only be using Marvel comics (as things stand now).

2) Again, just my opinion but if a Wizard 10 is a CGC 10, then there wont be many of them for Wizard to sell..

3) If one of the Wizard books does not measure up to a CGC 10, then it will probably (again my opinion) be given a 9.5 no matter what the real quality is of the book.

4) From what I got out of SteveB's comments, Bronze/Silver/Golden books will not be affected by this in grading or times since this is only for a select few Marvel Moderns (which use different graders).

5) Although I think this idea is brilliant from CGC's standpoint (more $$$ for them) and possibly a good idea for Wizard (more $$$ for them as well), I think for those comic dealers and individuals who are submitting modern/new release Marvel books in hopes of getting the elusive 9.9 or 10 grades the idea SUX ! But since this only affects Marvel books, I say keep submitting those DC books, and forget about the Marvel books...

6) Since I have only submitted ONE book that was released in the last 12 months I'm not too worried about this affecting me right now so I'm not too bothered by it. Most of my submissions are Silver and Bronze age.

7) I do agree that the Wizard First label needs to only mention that it was graded by CGC on the very back and hopefully the front of the label will make it VERY clear that the book is a Wizard first book.

[supapimp]

capitalism is about making as much money as you possibly can with your product, and that's what CGC is doing. as i mentioned in my prior post i'm not happy with the whole wizard team up. most forumites know exactly how i feel about wizard magazine. but i think if wizard fooks up the market like they did once before in the early nineties, the market will rebound again, history will repeat itself. if you think about it some more, why hasn't any of the BSD's or players in the market come on a gripe. it's not really going to affect the market as much as some think. it might actually bring some collectors into the market to buy the CGC universal blue label graded books.

 

just my two bills,

 

pimpy

[Red Hook]

no you don't redhook... read my post above... i completely agree with you.

 

Got it. Didn't read it as closely as it deserved.

[RS]

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about

 

You are not the only one Steve

[CaptainBackfire]

redhook wrote:

 

CGC can't be serious about speeding up the turnaround time if they are going to take this on. I did resent paying close to $50 a book standard for my last submisssion and getting the equivalent of economy service for it. I'm not a big time dealer looking to flip for a profit. I just wanted my books graded and protected. Well, that plan is now out the window.

 

And yes, Manufactured Collectible is a filthy phrase. This does not bode well.

 

But seriously, if there was ever an opening for a legitimate competitor to CGC, Steve B. just handed them an engraved invitation.

 

I tend to agree with this... It seems to me that besides good judgement, what's really lacking here is some serious competition to CGC's near stranglehold on the comic certification business. I think if there was another company around to seriously challenge CGC, then they would be a little more reluctant to sign up for something so blatantly effing retarded as manufacturing collectibles with Wizard.

 

As far as turnaround times go, this "Wizard First" thing can only hurt an already painful situation.

 

I have a few thousand comics from all different ages, but mostly they are pretty worthless. I have a few golden age books that are worth a few dollars but nothing high grade, nothing major. Admittedly, maybe I am not the target customer for CGC. I have 4 books that I bought over the last year or so that were already slabbed. The more I have been reading/posting here, the more I have been wanting to submit 2 or 3 of my nicer books. However, the longer I wait to submit, the longer the turnaround times become. This has always been my major barrier to submitting anything for grading by CGC. I just don't like the idea of parting with my books for months on end, and I don't feel that it's worth the expense to go the expedited route (like I said, my books aren't that valuable to begin with and I'm not selling them).

 

I believe CGC when they say turnaround times are getting better, but I'd have to see some drastic improvements before I will ever ship off my moderately valuable books to CGC. I can't sit here and complain loudly and threaten to withold submissions over this, because I'm not a big CGC customer, only a potential small-time customer. But I can say that for now, they've lost this potential customer.

 

Zanarkand wrote:

 

sborock wrote:

The deal is that Wizard will get a limited amount of copies of only a few titles from Marvel right off the press and they CONTRACTED us to grade their books using WIZARD'S NEW GRADING SCALE. This is stated on the back of the label.

 

Cool. Can I contract with you to grade books too? Here's the plan: I send you $16 for every Modern comic I want graded. I will agree to wait twice your advertised turnaround time to get them back, since I will anyway. But since Wizard gets to make up their own freaking grading scale which YOU happily slap on the comics, I should have the same privilege. I would like all comics that are perfect to be 10, and all comic less than perfect to be 9.9. Thank you.

 

Jesus H. Christ...

 

Unfortunately, I feel like this is an all too accurate depiction of what CGC has done... Funny, but sad and disappointing at the same time. Disappointing that the people at CGC, who by all accounts are good guys, cannot see the folly in this decision for all the $$$$ Wizard is "contracting" to them...

 

I can only speak for myself, but to me, CGC has done some serious damage to their credibility with this move.

[Foolkiller]

2 ) Again, just my opinion but if a Wizard 10 is a CGC 10, then there wont be many of them for Wizard to sell..

 

don't be so sure about the number... since they're "straight off the press" expect a lot more 10.0s... otherwise I doubt Wizard would think this was such a great idea.