delekkerste Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 If anyone did hoard Hulk 181's, it's a safe assumption that they did so for investment purposes. Otherwise, what would be the point? I don't think this is a safe assumption - I've seen "hoards" of single non-key issues that I'm sure the owner didn't consciously set out to accumulate. At a convention last year, I saw that Neat Stuff Collectibles had an entire longbox of some random early 1970s Thor issue (I forget which #). I'm quite sure nobody set out to consciously hoard this particular issue. I also saw stacks and stacks of various single issues that Neat Stuff had pulled out of their warehouse inventory for the show. There were keys, semi-keys and non-keys represented from the 1970s through the 1990s. Neat Stuff has so many books in inventory that I'm sure they don't even know what they have or what everything is worth (for example, they sold me a bunch of ASM #299s for $1 each, one of which came back a 9.8 from CGC). There were stacks and stacks of single issues, including many, many 1970s Marvels, some never opened from how they were initially shipped. I was told this this huge room was a drop in the bucket of what they own. I can only imagine what the rest of their holdings look like, as well as those of Gary Dolgoff, Joe Koch, Mile High, etc. Again, I'm not saying there's a Hulk 181 mega-hoard out there. But I certainly wouldn't be "investing" my money assuming that more books aren't going to eventually turn up. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Neat Stuff isn't a good example for your point..what they call a NM, or so it seems from their auctions, is usually a VF. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 There's a big difference between Hulk 181's and "some 1970's thor" or ASM #299. There are cases where dealers will purchase old store stock, or some other similar hordes of books, usually as part of some bigger deal, and end up with books like the examples you used. If you told me that Neat Stuff had accumulated a whole box of GS X Men 1's or 94's, that argument would hold. But stumbling upon a horde of "some 70's Thor" is likely to, and probably happens all the time with bulk dealers. But unintentionally stumbling on a box of Hulk 181's? That would only happen in some dealer/fanboy wet dream. What we're saying isn't too different. The point is, it's doubtful that there are many hordes of this book, if any, in true NM. My initial argument was that there aren't going to be huge amounts of true NM OR HIGHER copies, not copies in general. I'm sure there's a lions share of VF's out there, including hoards, but IMO not many true 9.4-9.6's left. And again, I said I could be wrong, but this is my standing opinion based on my experiences with this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Agreed... although it was rumored that one of those guys (owner of one of those comic empires) fell on his head climbing a fence trying to get into studio 54 back in the day. If anyone could lose a box of keys... it might be that guy I think if you want to invest in Hulk 181 at these prices and expect a decent return... you need a 9.6 (around $3500 currently... $4k if White). I doubt seriously the population numbers are going to move beyond demand for 9.6's at ANY point. However, I doubt few will lose with a 9.4 either (if they don't go nuts when buying it). We must also consider that many people want, and pay for this book for reasons other than just investment (or its not the primary reason). I bought one because I love the character and had to have it. I have no intentions of selling it... ever. In fact, I might have it buried with me with instructions that I be dug up in 300 years and one of my decendants can have it (and cash in) if he is named after me... and collects comics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Neat Stuff isn't a good example for your point..what they call a NM, or so it seems from their auctions, is usually a VF. I'm not talking about Neat Stuff's auctions, I'm talking about the size of their gargantuan warehouse inventory - much of it in pristine condition up to NM/MT 9.8. As I said, they have *huge* amounts of unread, single issues from the 1970s to the 1990s in their inventory. The room they had set up had up to 100 copies of a ton of single issues including 1970s Marvels. Unread and untouched until they decided to pull out a truckload or two for the convention - a veritable drop in the bucket of their overall inventory. As I mentioned, I bought several ASM #299s, all between 9.6 and 9.8. I bought a bunch of early 1980s Batman issues from 9.6 to 9.8 - absolutely pristine copies. I don't collect 1970s Marvels except for X-Men and ASM, but if I was a FF or Avengers collector, for example, I would have gone hog-wild opening up a stack of 50 unread copies of various issues from the mid-to-late 1970s. Don't underestimate how many copies of all comics have survived, even in grade, since at least as far back as the 1970s. I am sure Neat Stuff isn't the only dealer with millions of comics in their warehouses. Everytime I go to a convention here in NYC and see stacks and stacks of issues you wouldn't believe anybody would have hoarded, it reminds me that every single Marvel comic had a print run in the tens/hundreds of thousands (even millions for a couple of books)...is it any wonder that so many copies are still around, whether they were actively hoarded or not? Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Well they need to work on their grading then b/c a FF 52 with black marker all over the moon, and easily seeable spine stress isn't NM. Btw, what do you think of evolving standards of grading thus lowering the amount of truly high grade copies out there.. in some cases buying a NM in the early 80's would be the equivolent grade-wise of a VF+ at best now. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I would agree with Bruce, I bought this book just b/c I thought the cover was cool and I like Wolverine..the books was nice looking and the price was right, so why not. There are other reasons for owning the book then just for investments Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 "I would agree with Bruce, I bought this book just b/c I thought the cover was cool and I like Wolverine" Come on Brian, not even you beleive that BS. If you JUST liked the cover art and Wolverine and had no thoughts of the value then you would not have droped $1850 on a NM 9.4. A much lower grade (and price) could have got you the cover you wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Btw, what do you think of evolving standards of grading thus lowering the amount of truly high grade copies out there.. Oh, I totally agree with you there. I was at my parents' house for the holidays (where much of collection resides) and was looking through all those books I own that used to be considered NM or better (but now are only 9.0 to 9.2!) Ah well, times change. By the way, I'm not bagging on your 181 purchase...it's a really nice copy at a lower price than some recent sales on one of the most in-demand books out there. I can certainly understand the logic of paying up for a major key...it's the logic of bidding up these semi-key books (Defenders 1, IF 1, etc.) in 9.8 to 4-figure/multiple 4-figure levels that I'm not quite grasping... Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yeh I'm investing in it so I can get a couple hundred bucks... I'll be keeping this one, as I've said before I'm expanding into the rest of the Marvel universe and buying covers that I like. And why would I buy this one? B/c I already have 2 copies in lower grade..why buy another instead of just getting what I want?? Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supapimp Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 people have to remeber that hulk 181 and spidey 129 were guided at the same price too for awhile, hulk 181 has since out distance itself from spidey 129. lots of room for more growth, but it may be due to supaoverexposure of puny in the late 80's and early 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I don't know, I think ASM 129 has slowed down due to Punisher being underexposed..either that or I just haven't seen where he's been popping up, except for the "mature rated" comics that come out occasionally. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yep, I've had that problem as well.. I'm glad I didn't buy much stuff in the early 90's or I think I probably would've been looking at a lot more junk then I currently have. :\ Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 The Punisher, Wolverine & Ghost Rider were THE most over-exposed characters of the early 90's. All three turned up as guest stars in just about every book under the sun. Popularity for both Ghost Rider and The Punsher have since waned (they both had their regular series cancelled) but Wolverine is still strong. As long as Wolvie remains popular and he can hang on to his regular gig, then his first app should remain strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 "And why would I buy this one? B/c I already have 2 copies in lower grade..why buy another instead of just getting what I want??" Hey Brian, I am not saying that you made a bad move buying the book. You got it for a good price, it is a very nice copy and you are obviously happy with it, so great. I would like a nice copy of the book myself.... All I am saying is that when someone spends $1800+ on a comic book they are doing so thinking the book will at least hold its value, even if they don't intend to sell it. Otherwise, why buy the book now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeBruce13 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 BS? Let me qualify Lee... "I just wanted the book"... but I WANTED a beautiful example of the book too. So... "I just wanted the book in HG". I have high grade tastes across the board and have to pay to enjoy the type of book I need to feel content with it as my permanent "keeper". You may characterize my affliction as a mental deficiency, ego-related, and/or irrational obsession if you like... but it's my problem and I understand my needs. I'm not saying I ignored the price and did not hold some hope that it may go up, but I did not believe so at the time. I certainly did not buy it thinking I was making a great investment. When I bought my 9.6 W for $3,200 it was the highest price paid by far for a 9.6 and I was insulted/criticized/mocked for the purchase by more than a few dealers and collectors... and I did have some remorse for the amount I had to lay out...but "I just HAD TO HAVE the book in 9.6 or 9.8" Trust me.. part of me would LOVE to be the type of collector that is extremely satisfied with just VF copies of everything... but that just isn't me. I do buy many books for both reasons though... love and investment, but 181 was mostly obsession and passion... trust me! There's more to my story with Hulk 181, but it's painfull to talk about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph0 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 So any time I pay money for something I have to assume it'll appreciate in value? I've spent a ton of money on electronics and those certainly aren't worthy investments. I bought the book for the simple effect of b/c it was nice..the price was a by-product of it being nice. I bought the book now b/c it was a superior copy at a cheaper price then the other ones.. I don't foresee being able to buy this for 10 dollars any time soon and the opportunity presented itself to buy one so I did. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COI Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Actually, as I mentioned a few pages ago, I think if you're going to buy this book in HG, a 9.6 is actually the best deal at around 3K-4K, especially when you consider that 9.2's sell for up to $1200. I think for comics in general the books that will have ANY shot of apreciation above inflation are the best copies available of its kind. But if you care more about the books as a passion, and can afford the copies you want and still provide yourself with 3 squares a day, by all means go nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awe4one Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 And a nice book it is Murph. Enjoy! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Man_Of_Steel Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I don't know if this has been pointed out but it's time for some facts from reliable sources. According to the Standard Catalog of Comic Books circulation statement there are 202,592 copies of Incredible Hulk 181 printed/sold. According to the CGC census 1,177 have been graded. What percentage is that of 202,592? Of the 1,177 CGC graded copies 407 of them grade 9.0 or higher. Obviously out of the percentage that HAVE been graded the majority grade Very Fine and lower. However, 407 out of 1,177 is a good number, and when you look at the very small percentage that have been sent in to CGC these first 2 years versus the percentage that have not, I guarentee that we will see a sizeable growth of 9.0 and higher copies. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the number of current 9.0 and higer copies DOUBLE in the next 10 years, that is assuming that CGC will still be around. I'm confident that the X-Men 2 movie hype will bring in a few more HULK 181's to CGC's door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
