9.2 versus 9.6 Ethics versus Reality.

[NoImSpartacus]

No Beyonder. Not speaking about me. Im 47 and been doing comics for 30 years. Collect Golden Age Sci Fi. Strange Worlds, Planets, Etc. Im a Monster/Space collector. X-Men doesnt do much for me but I can respect those that collect it. My concern is only due to some of the things I have seen being done in the comic world over the past few months. When I saw this young one take a hit, I figured it was worth mentioning and watch the interesting discussion.

[THE_BEYONDER]

No Beyonder. Not speaking about me. Im 47 and been doing comics for 30 years. Collect Golden Age Sci Fi. Strange Worlds, Planets, Etc. Im a Monster/Space collector. X-Men doesnt do much for me but I can respect those that collect it. My concern is only due to some of the things I have seen being done in the comic world over the past few months. When I saw this young one take a hit, I figured it was worth mentioning and watch the interesting discussion.

 

Why didn't you intervene and save the youngster some money?

[Aman619]

this was a great thread.. and a perplexing conundrum. Frankly, even considering all the possibilities of culpability on both sides, bottom line, I think the dealer has a clear choice whether to keep his extra profits, or lose two customers' business going forward. If he's a smart businessman, he'll work it out by pleasing NoIm, and keeping the kid interested in comics collecting by giving back something meaningful over $100. If he's smart he'll realize that much many times over from them both... though, Im sure the kid wont be buying any unslabbed books at high multiples. He'll still have learned a solid life lesson (as we all have) but at least it will be to be careful with his money, NOT that all comics guys are crooks!!

[underthebigw]

An expensive lesson for the the kid - don't pay multiples of top guide , unless you feel confident that you can judge the grade - regardless of who else has graded it.

 

I think the lesson would be:

 

Don't trust comic book dealers...as they are more than likely trying to screw you.

 

I young kid should be able to rely on the expertise of his local comic dealer. I don't think it's asking " too much " to be able to TRUST a seller.

 

Maybe I'm just callous, but c'mon. There are certain lessons in life that you need to learn and, as far as I'm concerned, by age 15, the most important thing is to trust your own judgement. I don't care what your age is, if you're going spend mutiples of guide, you better know what you're doing. And if you're going to spend a premium on ANYTHING in life, not just a book, you better be certain you're going to get your money's worth. I know one of my eye-opening collecting experiences was paying $3.60 for a VG Amazing Spider-man 32 when I was 13. I think that was NM guide at the time. Only later did I learn I was taken for about 8 new books worth of cashola. However, by the time I was 15, experiences like this led me to be a very savy buyer who could more than hold his own at large NYC shows. Live and learn. In this thread's original scenario, could the dealer have been nicer about it? Sure. Do we know for sure the book wasn't damaged at all by the kid? Nope. Whose really responsible in this situation--the kid and whoever gave him $460 bucks to spend. (I'm continuously in shock at how much disposable income kids have now).

 

As for the age question, if you're 35 and this happens to you, unless you had an agreement before hand, I really think you're completely out of luck.

[sfilosa]

If the kid wanted a CGC 9.6, then he should have bought a CGC 9.6!!!

 

It's that simple.

 

First of all, who's to say the kid or post office didn't damage the book slightly anyway.

 

If it had restoration, different story. But I think everyone of us has been screwed buying a book (intentionally or not). You get what you pay for. At least now with CGC, you pretty much know what you are getting.

[FlamingCarrot]

It'd be one thing if the comic came back with a PLOD from CGC, but it looks like the kid purchased the book and was happy with the deal.

 

Whenever we have one of those grading contest threads, the grades are all over the place, so we know how subjective things like this can be. A 9.2 and 9.6 can be the result of a million variables when it comes to the grader. He could've had a bad day, woke up late, got a ticket or something, who knows? Without looking at a scan of the book, I think it's alittle too premature to make a definitive call one way or the other.

[Darthdiesel]

Add me to the "dealer is a jerk" crew...

 

I don't have any problem including a markup to hedge your bets on high grade stuff. But if the dealer truly believed this was a 9.6 copy and was worth $400+ there is no good reason for him to have not slabbed it. If he had it raw with a price of $180 or so, I don't think the kid would have a beef. That falls into the "pays your money, takes your chances" game. But when you start getting into the $300 over guide range on a Modern book, you need to slab it if you want to charge that price.

 

If I have a raw book that I think is borderline 9.2-9.4, and 9.2s sell for $100 slabbed and 9.4s sell for $300 slabbed, I don't have any problem charging $150-160 raw. But if you're charging $400+ raw because you think it's a 9.6, you better be a more accurate grader than drbanner...

 

...or have a great return policy in place.

 

now advocate:

 

Let's say the raw price was $180 or so, would the "15 year old" have come back and given the dealer more money if it did come back as a CGC 9.6? Is he obligated to ?

 

It all about who's screwing who; and to some extent, to what degree is dependent on the type of $$$ we are talking about.

[Darthdiesel]

dealers can advertise their books any way they choose -- nobody is forcing you to buy them. If you, as the buyer, take on the risk, then you are stuck with the book.

 

 

Really? I didn't know that comic book dealers were exempt from false advertising laws.

 

 

What about consistent undergrading sellers like our forumite, Bigman? He is always calling his CGC 9.6/9.8 potential books (as seen from his latest submission), "Near Mint" when selling raw. His Fines look like VFs? Is he guilty of false advertising?

[Aman619]

 

now advocate:

 

Let's say the raw price was $180 or so, would the "15 year old" have come back and given the dealer more money if it did come back as a CGC 9.6? Is he obligated to ?

 

It all about who's screwing who; and to some extent, to what degree is dependent on the type of $$$ we are talking about.

 

but in this case, if anyone was doing the "screwing" it was the dealer not kid.

And in that example, the dealer, the wiser of the two, COULD have sold it as a 9.2 for $130 (a fair price for that grade) and agreed with th ekid on a further payment of some kind SHOULD the kid get it graded and SHOULD it come back 9.4 or 9.6. Too much to ask, I know, but IMO it wasnt fair to sticker a raw book at the nosebleed 9.6 price in the first place/

 

The only 9.6s that get to sell for big multiples are officially CGC slabbed 9.6s ,... not Any Scm=hmo Dealer's definition of a 9.6. It just aint a 9.6 until Sarasota says so! Thats the rules of the game.

[DiceX]

Should the kid get a refund on this book?

Think about these points before making a decision...

1) The price was very high for a raw copy anyway.

2) The dealer sold the book raw, and when the kid bought the book he was happy with the price he paid for the *raw* book.

3) The last two sales for a CGC 9.2 were $240 and $310, so did he really lose that much money?

4) If the kid wanted to get a CGC graded copy, he should have bought a CGC graded copy.

5) If the book had graded 9.8, does the kid now owe the dealer money?

6) The kid learned a life lesson for $250. I can guarantee he will learn more lessons in the future that he will *wish* cost only $250.

7) The kid obviously knew how much the CGC 9.6 was worth, so is he's mad for getting screwed while he was trying to screw the dealer?

 

Two sides of the story here.

A scumbag dealer that charges too much for a raw book.

And a kid buying a $460 lottery ticket for the chance at a $750 comic.

Looks to me like greed on both sides.

If the dealer wants future business with the kid, he will probably pony up a little money to keep him coming back.

 

I don't know which one to feel sorry for. My gut says neither.

After the day I had today, I can assure you there could be worse things happen to this kid than lose $250 on a funny book.

[DKB]

If the kid wanted a CGC 9.6, then he should have bought a CGC 9.6!!!

 

.

 

Exactly. If you are going to pay the CGC 9.6 price for a book, may as well get one that is already CGC 9.6. I can understand paying slightly over guide 9.2, 10%-25% considering you can hold it, for a book that looks like it *might* be higher than the price indicates, then pressing your luck with the slab. Maybe you'll get a 9.4 and made a good deal out of it. No point paying slab cash for non-slabs though.

[Darthdiesel]

but in this case, if anyone was doing the "screwing" it was the dealer not kid.

 

How do we know that the kid wasn't going to get it slabbed and try to flip it for $1500 on eBay? I'm not so sure that this 15 year old is as naive as we think - he does, after all, know about CGC?

 

And in that example, the dealer, the wiser of the two, COULD have sold it as a 9.2 for $130 (a fair price for that grade) and agreed with the kid on a further payment of some kind SHOULD the kid get it graded and SHOULD it come back 9.4 or 9.6. Too much to ask, I know, but IMO it wasnt fair to sticker a raw book at the nosebleed 9.6 price in the first place

 

Why go through all this in the first place? Isn't that why he already graded the book and put a sticker price on it? It's the 15 year old who decided to overspend? How do you know the dealer's costs for the book? What if he paid $300 for it? Is $130 still a fair price? What if it is being consigned to the dealer and he is taking a small percentage from this sale? That happens a lot? What if the dealer is under obligation to the consignor to sell it at over $400? Life isn't fair and we all learn the hard way. Helping this kid gives him a false sense of security and aide that is never there in reality; also it gives him a warped vantage point of how the business world works. Maybe if he pulled his head out of arse and get off the dope, he'd realize how not to throw away $500 on a comic book without haggling a bit or getting guarantees from the dealer on condition. As described, this is absolutely the stupidest 15 year old I've come across ever and I used to prey on saps like this in my highschool days. Not proud of it, but these guys are perfect targets for everything bad in life...

 

The only 9.6s that get to sell for big multiples are officially CGC slabbed 9.6s ,... not Any Scm=hmo Dealer's definition of a 9.6. It just aint a 9.6 until Sarasota says so! Thats the rules of the game.

 

I think you are missing a after this part of the post

[Darthdiesel]

That's the focal point of this whole ordeal: the lottery aspect. NO ONE actually wants to pay the CGC 9.6 going rates for a 9.6 potential book. that's why you've got the boards and eBay rife with lowballing flippers....this kid's mentality is no different... and is on the path to being considered another "Gollum" in the hobby...

[Aman619]

good guesses on what really MIGHT have happenned. But none of us know more than the scenario NoIm layed out. And based on that, my gut feeling is as I stated.

 

And I meant that last part, if youre suggesting that it was a ridiculous statement. I couldnt tell, and never really get the graemlins anyway. CGCs grading kicked off the multiples era we are in, and noone elses 9.6s mean anything w/o the slab. Youre just gambling on your personal grading talent (and CGCs whims) if you think otherwise. Thats not a gamble I want to take at market prices on raw books.

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

I don't think I am qualified to answer what the intentions of dealer or the buyer were. I don't think I am qualified to answer if either party is a moral person. Quite frankly, I don't understand how any of you can make that decision based on one person's post. The dealer set a price for a book, which another person agreed to pay. The other person could have examined the book before the purchase for any defects. The buyer knew enough about comics to make a $460 decision and also knew enough about comics to send the book off to CGC to be graded. I really don't see the problem here. Seems like the kid knew enough. Does anyone here seriously believe that this kid has been nickel and diming his way through comics and then decides to blow $460 on a purchase? Again, I am not qualified enough to give a definitive answer this because I don't know the kid, but I really doubt it.

 

Consider this...since some of us have the image of a young kid who is naive to comics just making a simple purchase...could this kid not have mishandled the comic book? Before he sent the book to CGC, he unknowingly banged a corner, caused a couple spine creases, or whatever brings the book down to a 9.2 grade. This book could have truly been a 9.6 when sold. Simply not enough is known about the situation for the dealer to blindly offer a refund.

[Darthdiesel]

And I meant that last part, if youre suggesting that it was a ridiculous statement. I couldnt tell, and never really get the graemlins anyway. CGCs grading kicked off the multiples era we are in, and noone elses 9.6s mean anything w/o the slab. Youre just gambling on your personal grading talent (and CGCs whims) if you think otherwise. Thats not a gamble I want to take at market prices on raw books.

 

A gamble I could live with from certain dealers in whose abilities to grade I trust based on personal experience and past success with CGC on their books. But I see your point .... on expensive keys (and I don't include X-men 101 in this category; I'm talking high grade early FF's, JIM's, silver, etc...), you'd rather have the CGc 9.6 label on top of it before spending so much. BUT if I'm selling you a modern book that I'm calling CGC 9.6 equivalent, you'd best believe it is at least that

[Darthdiesel]

The more posts I read in this thread, the more animosity and bile is building towards this kid whom I don't know from Adam, all because he pulled the biggest bonehead move and seems like he wants an "out" in the form of a misplaced imposition on a seller's sense of responsibility to stand behind his grading standards.

[DiceX]

The more posts I read in this thread, the more animosity and bile is building towards this kid whom I don't know from Adam, all because he pulled the biggest bonehead move and seems like he wants an "out" in the form of a misplaced imposition on a seller's sense of responsibility to stand behind his grading standards.

 

He had the book in hand and still paid the money.

It's hard for me to feel sorry for him.

[greggy]

The more posts I read in this thread, the more animosity and bile is building towards this kid whom I don't know from Adam, all because he pulled the biggest bonehead move and seems like he wants an "out" in the form of a misplaced imposition on a seller's sense of responsibility to stand behind his grading standards.

 

He had the book in hand and still paid the money.

It's hard for me to feel sorry for him.

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

The more posts I read in this thread, the more animosity and bile is building towards this kid whom I don't know from Adam, all because he pulled the biggest bonehead move and seems like he wants an "out" in the form of a misplaced imposition on a seller's sense of responsibility to stand behind his grading standards.

 

I honestly feel no animosity nor bile for any of these people who I really don't know. From the few facts given, it just seems very difficult to justify giving this kid any kind of refund. On one hand, this kid could have wanted to flip this book to pay for medical bills for his dying mother on life support and was deviously deceived by this wretched dealer who only wants to make money to support his drug habit. On the other hand it could be a punk kid who really bought a 9.6 and switched it with a 9.2 that he had graded earlier and is trying to make some quick cash off a kindly old LCS owner who is trying to save money to send his grandkids to college. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

 

The way I see it is like this:

 

- Dealer looks at a book and decides to put a 9.6 sticker and $460 tag on it. It could have really been a 9.6, it might not have been. Who knows for certain?

 

- A 15 year old kid had $460 to spend and chose to spend it on a book which he had time to examine carefully for defects.

 

- The kid comes in a few days/weeks/months later with a CGC 9.2 book which he states is the 9.6 book that he purchased and wants a refund.

 

Knowing so little, how can we assume the intentions or morals of either party? It is pure speculation at this point. If I had to make an objective decision based on the information given to me, there is no way that I could say that the dealer intentionally and maliciously ripped the kid off and should give him a refund.