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For Your Eyes Only they said, but EVERYONE should read this!
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Started by Guest,

178 posts in this topic

fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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Posted

The fact that those books are largely restored should be only minorly disappointing to current Metropolis customers and shouldn't be a huge surprise. The history of comics prior to the late 1990s was that a LOT of large, knowledgable national dealers would restore comics themselves and sell them without disclosing the work. More than a few of the current most well-known dealers around used to do this. I hear that it was never widely considered ethical, but there were a lot of well-known people doing it and a lot of people knew it went on. It didn't become widely known issue of contention until the mid to late 1990s. CGC has cemented undisclosed restoration as a cardinal sin and has forced most of those dealers to stop touching up books. With one notable exception in a seller of key comics.

 

Cage bought his collection back when even a lot of the top collectors weren't thinking much about restoration when they bought books. In today's market, I think a seller could be convicted of fraud for knowingly selling comics with undisclosed restoration. However, is that true of the early 1990s and before market? I'm not sure that many people knew slight restoration went on as much as it did, so I'm not sure whether it affected prices much. I've heard that the dealers doing the work wouldn't pay much for books where they spotted other people's work, but I'm not sure that collectors in general thought much about it.

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CosmicBob

CosmicBob

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I once emailed them about some Superboys on their website, I asked for scans. He sent me back the scans but said they don't usually email scan for books under $500, he was doing me a big favor.

 

I didn't like his grading on them, I thought they were way overgraded. But it could be that I'm extremely tough. I look at some of the things that get CGC 9.0 and can't believe it! All those spine stresses or chips out of the edges! ACK!

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Matt Nelson

Matt Nelson

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Hopefully I can be of some help straightening out the Cage questions floating around here...I cataloged almost the entire collection for Heritage a few weeks ago, and saw every single book front and back. There are indeed just a few restored books, compared to the total number in the sale. I didn't do a tally (wish I did), but in terms of percentage, it's very low. Out of 350-400 individual books, I'm guessing maybe 40 or 50 had work...so 10-12%? But of these 10%, some constituted a large portion of the collection's value. The Mile High Adventure #40 has a tiny bit of color touch. The Mile High Cap #1 has a bit of color touch, tear seal, and a cleaned cover. Some of the keys have small work, like cleaned covers or small color touch or support. I think this is where the percentages get confusing. Talking about number of books, it's small. Value wise, it's bigger, although I wouldn't say anywhere near 70%.

 

There are many other things to consider as well. These books were bought over a span of many years, at older market values. I don't know what was bought when, and I can't say for certain if he'll make money or lose money on this sale--something only he and his accountant know. But the collection is very valuable...$2 Million? Who knows, I certainly didn't bother to add it up. How crazy the market is now, there's no telling what they'll sell for.

 

Side note: most of the purple labeled books do not have the "from the Nicolas Cage collection" on them. The giant books do, like the Adventure #40. In my opinion, this is a big snub to restored books. I wonder who's idea it was to do this. Not good for the hobby's impression of restored books.

 

Did Steve Fishler not disclose the restoration to Cage? From the rumors that are swirling about, it certainly seems that there were a few that got in under the radar. But how many? All of them? Just the Mile Highs? Again, something only he can answer. I will say that the majority of the restored books had very light work on them. The kind that can easily pass without detection. Is it possible even Steve didn't spot some of the work? I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but either way, it's not good press for him.

 

On a brighter note, the UNrestored stuff was amazing. The early Adventure run, one of the toughest to complete, was almost all there (#1-102). I think it was missing 15 or so issues, mostly pre-hero. A nice chunk of Mile High copies were part of it, and they were stunning. The Adventure #40 is a killer, killer book, despite the purple label. I promise you'll never see a nicer copy. I'd buy it any day of the week.

 

Marvel Mystery #1-92 isn't too shabby either. Both #1's (Oct and Nov, both unrestored) are pretty, and the #2 and #4 are eye-popping. Lots of pedigrees, lots of high grades.

 

Planet #1-72 are all mid to high grade, no pedigrees, and I think only one had a purple label. A very uniform run of books, almost as if they were bought together. There are some fantastic covers there! Oh, and the #1 is dead NM.

 

The MH All-Star #3 9.6 is amazing. The MH Cap #1 is amazing. Even in high grade that book can look dull, but the Mile High copy has colors and corners that defy description. Graded a 9.0, I bet it gives the $265,000 NM+ 9.6 a run for it's money. Also a run of Mile High Catmans, a run of Power, most of the Timely key issues, a bunch of DC keys (but no Batmans! Go figure. Guess he gave up on that franchise), and a Thrill #1. Or Flash, forget which.

 

The most interesting lot to see was his Luke Cage run, since this is what he based his professional name on. I noticed multiple issues on some, and a few were unbagged and ragged. Could these be his childhood copies???? No way of knowing, although that would be a great question to ask if anyone ever ran into him. I think that lot may see some heated bidding. And it guides for nothing.

 

Hope this information lays questions to rest.

 

Matt Nelson

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sborock

sborock

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Matt,

ALL of the comics say "FROM THE COLLECTION OF NICOLAS CAGE" it's just listed on the right side of the label, not under the grade where the restoration is noted. Go look again. We would not "snub" any comic, you know better than that. tongue.gif

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comicinvestor-migration

comicinvestor-migration

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There are many other things to consider as well. These books were bought over a span of many years, at older market values. I don't know what was bought when, and I can't say for certain if he'll make money or lose money on this sale--something only he and his accountant know.

 

You know, I really hate when this comment is brought up. Cage spent fair market value for unrestored books, yet some think it's okay that they're restored because he "may make money anyway".

 

That's just bizarre because it totally discounts the huge sum he would have made had his smart investment actually been for the unrestored books he paid for. That's the amount he got scammed for, and even in the case of the restored Cap #1, that's some serious bucks.

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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That's assuming he was told they were unrestored. The majority of collectors didn't think about it before the late 90s, and very few dealers volunteered that info back then. I think it was this ignorance that has led to the market for restored comics to fall through the floor.

 

Once the ignorance is gone, restored comic prices should recover a bit. Somebody's gotta educate those that thirst for knowledge first...

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Matt Nelson

Matt Nelson

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Ha, you know I wasn't insinuating YOU guys would come up with that idea, Steve! I could have sworn I saw a few of the restored books without Cage notes on them, but if they're there, my whoops.

 

And I don't want to downplay Cage unknowingly buying restored books. That is bad, bad, bad. The restored books will obviously sell for way less than if they were unrestored. No one should have to suffer that fate, even wealthy movie stars.

 

Matt

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Guest

Guest

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Posted

Matt,

ALL of the comics say "FROM THE COLLECTION OF NICOLAS CAGE" it's just listed on the right side of the label, not under the grade where the restoration is noted. Go look again. We would not "snub" any comic, you know better than that.

 

It was my understanding that thursday at Heritage was all Nicholas Cage books. That's lot #s 5001-5414... If that's the case, then there are definitely a couple of cage books without the designation (yes, I'm currently browsing through the cage collection lot by lot.... very cool. I'm still wondering where the hundreds of restored books are though....)

 

here's a couple of examples:

 

lot 5002 Action Comics #9 (DC, 1939) CGC Apparent VF/NM 9.0 Moderate (P) Off-white to white pages.

 

lot 5003 Action Comics #15 (DC, 1939) CGC Apparent VF 8.0 Slight (P) Off-white pages.

 

 

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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Can you elucidate on how the Action 9 top/bottom spine piece replacement is obvious? I can see it on the back cover at the top and bottom; does it stop there, or are there pieces on the front also?

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Guest

Guest

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The pieces replaced at the top and bottom of the spine on the Action #9 is obvious. How anybody could miss the restoration on this one is pretty sad. That goes for both the dealer that sold the book and Cage.

 

Again, to play the other (non-conspiracy) side in this thread.... there's no guarantee that both the dealer that sold it and Cage didn't know. The only evidence we have that Cage was swindled is Crusty's second-hand gossip and I'm sorry, but I trust Crusty as far as I could throw a buick.

 

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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Tried:

 

- full brightness, low contrast

- full brightness, high contrast

- low brightness, full contrast

- low brightness, low contrast

 

Couldn't see anything on the front top or bottom spine. The back piece replacement is quite clear at any contrast/brightness though.

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Guest

Guest

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Buddha,

 

I'd suggest practicing throwing that Buick, because you're drivel about this being a "conspiracy theory" is naive and uneducated. The information once again is NOT up for debate, its fact, even Matt Nelson admitted to knowing some of this info a few posts back, so what's this diatribe really about?

 

Please, go talk crazy somewhere else, you're already looking like someone who just doesn't want to believe the evidence no matter what, because you MUST at all costs be right. Sorry, but you're WRONG and the books ARE restored and there are quite a few of them to boot, so just quiet down already and learn something....if you stay this course you'll only end up looking like a bigger fool when the truth becomes more common knowledge! crazy.gif

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