CGC Pricing vs. Raw Pricing - Who will win?

[Soft-Serve]

Hello all,

 

I'm new here, a long-time collector, but fairly recently starting collecting CGC slabs for both collecting and investing. I'm totally hooked. I find the presentation, grade assurance, and preservation aspects of the CGC's service to be perfect for my collecting style. Of course, I'm also very much impressed with how much more CGC books are worth in the marketplace (at least those 8.0 and up). I do realize under that grade, slabbing can often be more of a hindrance than a benefit to many sellers. For Buyers, under that grade, it's more a personal collecting choice rather than any sort of investment.

 

Now, I apologize if this subject has been beaten-to-death, but I wanted to ask anew, in my own words. I hope you don't mind! Alos, please forgive any assumptions I've made regarding age, value, etc.. I'm fine being corrected and am hoping for a reasonable discussion of the topic.

 

More and more, as I talk to certain comic shop owners (often older, say 50 and up), as well as reading certain auction rants in a comic's description paragraph over at Ebay, I'm seeing some resistance to professional grading and slabbing. This is nothing new. The complaint usually is that Overstreet is the bible and if a 9.6 is worth $500 in Overstreet, it should be worth that slabbed - so why bother? Some even feel insulted that a professional grading service should take their place of their 20+ years of experience grading their own books. Maybe I'm not talking to the right people, but I don't hear the same complaints from the younger generation of comic collectors.

 

Maybe it's because the CGC has been around either before, or shortly after, many began collecting. As a result, for younger collectors (say 35 and younger) its become the "gold standard" of comics whereas for some older collectors, it is sometimes seen as an unnecessary "upstart" intruding into their long-time hobby/profession and distorting pricing.

 

I'm sold myself on the service as I mentioned in the beginning. While I love holding a fine silver-age raw comic in my hands, smelling the history, and feeling the cover, I still am more impressed when the same book is slabbed and graded. It adds to it's importance I think as well as it's value. (to me and the market)

 

So, who will win? In 20 years will most raw books simply be pre-CGC copies considered somehow "less-than", or will there continue to be resistance and division? Personally I think that as today's younger collectors take the mantle of the older generation (that is against professional grading), there will be general acceptance of slabbing and the price bump it gives to a book's value. Thoughts?

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Welcome to the Boards, Jeremy.

[DiceX]

The price is what the market says it will sell for. No more. No less.

It matters not what someone's brother's cousin says it's worth unless they have cabbage and they buy slabbage.

 

 

[reddwarf666222]

The idea that the comic is slabbed adding more value to the comic for the most part is bad. The only grades that should really matter when getting more money slabbed is 9.4 and above because 9.4 should be the condition of the comic when picking it up off the store shelf. Even then for the most part 9.8 and above are the only ones that should really command quite a bit more for most comic releases.

[Soft-Serve]

The idea that the comic is slabbed adding more value to the comic for the most part is bad....

 

For me, it's the certification that adds value, it's like buying a lifetime warranty. It's not that the car is somehow "better", but protected.

 

Grading and slabbing makes me feel more secure in my purchase (even if it is for a multiple of NM value) because I know that there are others that feel the same and that could theoretically sell to them. Of course I'm referring mainly to grades lower than 9.2 but above 6.5 or so.

 

In the end, the market does determine the value for everything, including certified grades. Even if my comic collecting program tells me that my Hulk #181 CGC 8.0 is worth $2450, I know realistically that I would probably be able to sell it for no more than $1100- $1200 right now.

[DiceX]

When your average comic shop owner learns the difference between a 7.0 and a 9.2, I'll start paying him a premium. Until then, he can suck it and whine about it.

 

 

[VintageComics]

There are many markets. Some dealers are terrific graders and I would pay what some people consider "slabbed prices" for their books.

 

The entire reason encapsulation came to be was because many dealers could not grade and could not spot restoration.

 

Those that can grade and spot resto don't need to slab their books.

 

 

[oakman29]

Where's the crack option?

Welcome to the Boards.

[Soft-Serve]

When your average comic shop owner learns the difference between a 7.0 and a 9.2, I'll start paying him a premium.

 

Yeah, I hear you. I found a dealer locally where the owner grades all his books at NM prices irregardless of the actual condition whereas his employee (who is usually doing the actual ringing-up) will take the book out and grade it rather low.

 

I try to show up only when the owner is out....

 

 

[Tony S]

The idea that the comic is slabbed adding more value to the comic for the most part is bad....

 

For me, it's the certification that adds value, it's like buying a lifetime warranty. It's not that the car is somehow "better", but protected.

 

Grading and slabbing makes me feel more secure in my purchase (even if it is for a multiple of NM value) because I know that there are others that feel the same and that could theoretically sell to them. Of course I'm referring mainly to grades lower than 9.2 but above 6.5 or so.

 

In the end, the market does determine the value for everything, including certified grades. Even if my comic collecting program tells me that my Hulk #181 CGC 8.0 is worth $2450, I know realistically that I would probably be able to sell it for no more than $1100- $1200 right now.

 

CGC has recently graded it's 2 millionth book. Anyone want to make a guess at how many raw books there are? 100's of millions? Billions? There were titles up through the early 1960's that routinely sold close to a million copies a month.

 

The raw market is vastly bigger than the slabbed market. It will always be vastly bigger than the slabbed market. Some dealers grade well, some don't. In reality - it doesn't matter how they grade. It is what they charge. Feel free to call it a VF when it is really a FN as long as you offer a "discount" and charge the FN price.

 

The local comic shops in this area don't send books to be graded and slabbed because they see little to no value in it. They have been in business a long time and they don't need to slab books to sell them. Neither are their customers asking for them slabbed. All of them are knowledgeable enough about the market that if a high grade key came in they would get it graded and encapsulated if it would improve the sale price.

 

I'm not running down professional grading and encapsulation. But we tend to forget that this forum is populated with "advanced" collectors - and we are a minority. I try to strike a balance in my own collection between raw and slabbed. A NM book is NM whether it is encapsulated or not. It's just better protected and safe to hand to non-collecting friends when encapsulated. But it also takes up the space of half a dozen raw comics. So for my own collection I don't slab inexpensive books. Inexpensive can mean different things to different people - for me it's past the $300 mark.

 

As a dealer, I get books professionally graded and encapsulated as it makes financial sense. The mental calculator is always thinking about the grade and potential value raw vs slabbed.

 

There have been a few occasions when selling I've had people want a slabbed book - but ask me to crack it out and send it raw. There is a small group of collectors that hate slabbing.

 

BTW - if your collecting program is telling you that Hulk 181 in 8.0 is worth $2450, you need a better collecting program. That much closer to the 9.4 price.

 

[crazyhips]

In 20 years I would hope there is more than just CGC that reliably and consistently grades and encapsulates comics. CGC is the gold standard but monopoly is never a good practice in the long run.

 

[shine_pittsy]

There are many markets. Some dealers are terrific graders and I would pay what some people consider "slabbed prices" for their books.

 

The entire reason encapsulation came to be was because many dealers could not grade and could not spot restoration.

 

Those that can grade and spot resto don't need to slab their books.

 

 

+1

I like what VintageComics says here... pretty much sums up the entire reason of slabbing.

[divad]

A NM book is NM whether it is encapsulated or not.

 

Many collectors like the security of a slabbed book. Can't argue with that. Do I care? No, just as soon be able to hold it my hands and read it.

 

Pricing? The market always determines price - slabbed or otherwise.

[Soft-Serve]

You bring up some good points. Certainly it's unrealistic to think that all books should receive professional grading. Encapsulation is currently a niche market for a relatively small group, and will probably remain so - similar to graded coin collecting.

 

This all being said, I can't help but prefer Graded books if they are available. They cost a premium, but I personally feel more secure with my purchase. It's a personal thing and I can see how many do not share that view. It wasn't long ago that I was just the opposite, so it just got me wondering how many others will have a similar change in opinion.

 

Regarding my collecting program, I've addressed the pricing issue with the company in the hopes they'll source more sources for their market data in future versions. Other than that, I think it's ideal for my purposes. (ComicBase16 Express)

[Sqeggs]

The restoration check is a big one. You are really rolling the dice if you buy a high-dollar book that isn't slabbed or checked by an impartial and knowledgeable third party. Cracking PLODs and selling them raw as unrestored has unfortunately become too common.

[Racer-X]

POV from this one collector: for high-end books I need them slabbed, or vetted by a supremely reliable seller, but pretty much the former. Need the guarantee.

 

But I like buying (and WTB, BTW) high-grade, raw books (silver, gold, bronze) under, say, $200 per book. Still, nothing beats a raw book in hand.

 

 

[ChrisInBaltimore]

My LCS has been dealing comics since the early 70 and been operating a store since the late 70s. He trusts in his grade and has fairly high standard when you get into nicer books.

 

Having said all that, he is really into the CGC thing. He has tons of them and is dealing CGC books all the time. It wouldn't surprise me if he was on these boards. He's one of the "older" dealers and he enjoys the third party grading.

 

The issue is the internet. When you look at a book online there is no guarantee in what you are getting. Mycomicshop.com is probably one of the bigger comic dealers, and look at all the people that complain about them over-grading stuff. When you buy a slab, you have that guarantee, and that seems to say lot.

 

The back issue market is also driven by the internet. There just isn't a big enough market to simply own a store these days.

[Hibou]

The price is what the market says it will sell for. No more. No less.

It matters not what someone's brother's cousin says it's worth unless they have cabbage and they buy slabbage.

 

 

+1

 

Besides, as you know, OSPG only lists to 9.2 and there certainly is a difference between a 9.2 and a 9.8.

 

If you're going to do a lot of slabbed buying a selling, a great resource is GPANALYSIS ... the site is relatively inexpensive per month but tracks sales history for slabbed books in all grades.

 

And WTTB!

 

 

 

[bruce21wayne21]

The issue is the internet. When you look at a book online there is no guarantee in what you are getting. Mycomicshop.com is probably one of the bigger comic dealers, and look at all the people that complain about them over-grading stuff. When you buy a slab, you have that guarantee, and that seems to say lot.

 

This is why professional grading, whatever it may be in the future will not go away. CGC isn't infallible, but as far as trust in the grade goes, its the best way to feel you really got x quality comic.

 

That goes for internet and things you can see up close and touch (maybe) in person.

[Boozad]

The issue is the internet. When you look at a book online there is no guarantee in what you are getting. Mycomicshop.com is probably one of the bigger comic dealers, and look at all the people that complain about them over-grading stuff. When you buy a slab, you have that guarantee, and that seems to say lot.

 

This is why professional grading, whatever it may be in the future will not go away. CGC isn't infallible, but as far as trust in the grade goes, its the best way to feel you really got x quality comic.

 

That goes for internet and things you can see up close and touch (maybe) in person.

 

There are many raw dealers who can seriously grade. I'd buy a book unseen from Flaming_Telepath for instance (again) and know I wouldn't be disappointed. I'd feel happier buying a book unseen from him than a CGC graded book.