Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[mysterio]

This is the penultimate pressing thread.

 

Another floating doo doo in the CGC board's pool. ::

 

Have a few scotches, and laugh a little. They're just comics.

 

For the most part comics that had a little value of less than a dollar until someone put a 9.8 or sig on them. Think about it,as most bronze, copper and modern comic book books valued at nm in Overstreet go for a few dollars at best in nm, but when you put that 9.6 or 9.8 label on them, then the value goes up significantly or if the 9.8 doesn`t work, then add a sig as well for the book to have some value.

It`s all about artificial value created for the majority of these comics because if you took off that 9.8 or it didn`t get that sig with someone witnessing it, then the nm comic reverts back to being worth to less than a dollar.

Myself from now on I am sticking to just golden age and silver age comics to be certified,as the rest of the market just doesn`t seem like a good bet, unless they are super uber keys.

Who cares if I get the latest issue of the Image hot comic book in 9.8 and sig if everybody else has one as well? Where is the future value in that? It reminds me of the Franklin Mint and the manufacturing of collectibles.

 

You post like a guy who has no interest in modern comic books and yet you post in the modern forums regarding your speculation "picks" and must buys. Which side of the fence do you sit on? It's fine to act high and mighty but you do realize that we can search your previous posts right? Like this one today...

 

My pick

Get them now because later you will be paying double cover for them.

 

That wasn`t a comic book that I would get slabbed. I will only get gold and silver age comic books certified,as it would be ridiculous of me to get a modern comic book like Borderlands or it`s similar kind pressed into a 9.8 or sig.

Thanks for pointing this out. (thumbs u

 

Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from (thumbs u

No problem.

To me fair is the buying and selling of raw Walking Dead`s on Ebay, what won`t be fair is all these newbies who are spending hundreds on the latest modern all proped up in a fancy 9.8 slab,and then get disappointed when they will get offered less than a $20 spot for them in a few years.

 

Everybody who collects for any length of time has been there. Not everything holds value, whether slabbed or not ( let's see where non- key WDs are in 5 years, for an example). But to suggest that moderns shouldn't be slabbed smacks of "what I collect rules and what you collect sucks".

That`s not what I am getting at. My point is most moderns have a value of cover and less, but when you put them in a CGC 9.8 they now get artificial value.

Take them out of their slabs and they are only having the value of a read.

This is much different than Walking Dead #1 or AF#15 because you can take Walking Dead#1 and AF #15 out of their slabs, and they will still hold value.

The majority of copper and modern comics would lose value, and I mean lose value big time to having thier value be worth less than a buck or two if ever taken out of slab and sold raw.

That is because as I just pointed out they have

ARTIFICIAL VALUE

that was created to make money for a few savy people.

I am surprised not many people on this edumacated board have not figured this it out by now.

 

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. What is artificial about that? You can argue about whether or not you think it is justified to pay X amount for a book in a 9.8 slab vs. the cover price the NM raw would be worth, but I don't see how that difference in value would be artificial. Many values in the OSPG are what I would categorize as artificial, because they bear no resemblance to the actual market prices being realized (see HG pre-hero Marvels as one example).

 

Are the values of the hot Image book of the month in CGC 9.8 sustainable over the long term? Almost certainly not. But are they artificial? Not if someone is paying them. Are they justified? Almost certainly not, but that is a different story and a matter of one person's opinion.

 

From its inception CGC has codified the minute subdivisions of NM that drive these values, and it works on all eras. Should a 9.8 really be worth 2-3x or more the price of a virtually identical 9.6 just because the label says they are different? I would say no, but others disagree. But those differences in value aren't artificial, because they clearly exist. The debate is over whether or not those differences are justified, which is a different matter.

[Boozad]

They have, they're just not replying to you.

Oh welcome back! I missed you since your second FDQ exit!

 

You'll have to point that one out to me. Good luck in finding it. (thumbs u

[skypinkblu]

Just wow. It doesn't even matter if you think Matt is nice and honorable, which I do. This is a cluster of a decision. To me, CGC sells trust. This erodes trust just like it did the first time the move was proposed.

 

If one company owns a company selling a service meant to increase a grade and a company which grades, that's a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest means less trust. If there were a way to know which books go through CI first, I would trust that grade less.

 

 

CGC doesn't sell trust. They sell an evaluation, and they make the rules by which that evaluation happens. It's up to us to buy into their rules, and judging by their wait times, they've had plenty of buy in.

 

If they're not selling trust, what are they selling? Trust in their grading ability. Trust in the impartiality (not grading certain people's book more favorably). Trust they won't damage your book. So on and so on.

How does adding Matt change any of that?

 

 

You may look at it differently because you are already an expert and probably know what should improve a grade, so you might not have the same need for Matt's input...but when I would meet with Matt, years ago, about a book, he would TELL me, what he would suggest be done to the book, to improve the grade. Fixing this or that, or pressing (he pretty much always suggested pressing). I collect older lower grade books and the ones I wanted "fixed" had restoration already...so maybe there was more that he could tell me...

 

However, I think there is an issue, with a grading company owning another company that can "improve" the books.

 

Let's say the graders are impartial (which I hope and expect they are)...what happens if the book comes back a lower grade than Matt guesses, or as restored when Matt says it should no longer show as restored. I've had that happen when I gave him books. Will there be a do-over? Will you have to pay another set of CGC fees?

 

The last time I gave Matt a book to remove restoration, some was missed. I was told I'd have to resubmit it to him and to pay CGC again until the resto was found,, that was the "normal" procedure. What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

I wish Matt luck, and congratulations...but I DO think there are going to be many issues here.

[ComicConnoisseur]

They have, they're just not replying to you.

Oh welcome back! I missed you since your second FDQ exit!

 

You'll have to point that one out to me. Good luck in finding it. (thumbs u

You really want me to go back and search for a thread from a few years ago when you where so upset at the board that you announced you were quitting? I really don`t have the time to go search, plus this search function really sucks now.

 

Edited November 17, 2012 by ComicConnoisseur

[xsmr2-migration]

What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

 

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies.

 

 

It is CCG that is buying Matt's company.

[Boozad]

They have, they're just not replying to you.

Oh welcome back! I missed you since your second FDQ exit!

 

You'll have to point that one out to me. Good luck in finding it. (thumbs u

You really want me to go back and search for a thread from a few years ago when you where some upset at the board that you announced you were quitting? Please I think your first FDQ was in 2008 or 2009! I really don`t have the time to go search, plus this search function really sucks now.

 

 

Yep I got pissed once over something and decided to do one, I could probably find it for you. Second time? Naa, I just pissed off for personal reasons. No great announcement. It's good to know you pay so much interest in me to know what I was doing two years before you got here though. It's weird but gives me a warm, tingly feeling.

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

You guys this is a non-issue.

 

 

This parent company of CCG knows what the hell they are doing.

 

CGC and Classics Inc will be under one umbrella company but come on use some common sense. They are not going to destroy the reputation they have created for themselves by doing something shady now with the grading going forward.

 

They will keep the resto/pressing under one area and when books move from that side of the company over to the CGC side for grading they will be handled fairly. If they do this in any other manner they will kill the company and they are smarter than this.

 

If you have a problem with resto or pressing that is another subject, but this is a non-issue and nothing shady is going to happen unless they are out to destroy the company from within.

 

Love me a good Friday thread!!

Their reputation is already. Extra long turn around time, grading that is never consistent, missing trimming, GA grade bump, and the list goes on. Do not act like they have some amazing reputation, they just dont have a competitor. So running a company like is acceptable as long as we can all make a few bucks.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

 

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies.

 

 

It is CCG that is buying Matt's company.

Who owns CGC?

[buttock]

Just wow. It doesn't even matter if you think Matt is nice and honorable, which I do. This is a cluster of a decision. To me, CGC sells trust. This erodes trust just like it did the first time the move was proposed.

 

If one company owns a company selling a service meant to increase a grade and a company which grades, that's a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest means less trust. If there were a way to know which books go through CI first, I would trust that grade less.

 

 

CGC doesn't sell trust. They sell an evaluation, and they make the rules by which that evaluation happens. It's up to us to buy into their rules, and judging by their wait times, they've had plenty of buy in.

 

If they're not selling trust, what are they selling? Trust in their grading ability. Trust in the impartiality (not grading certain people's book more favorably). Trust they won't damage your book. So on and so on.

 

They're selling an evaluation that most of their customers rely (wish?) on to make money. It isn't about trust. If it was trust, then they'd grade strictly, not loose enough to get max value out of a book. CGC isn't in business to give collectors trust. You'd like that to be the case, but it's just not their business model. Just look at their advertising (Your book is worth 10X more in a CGC slab!!!) They are in business to make money, and the best way to do that for this market is to tantalize others with the opportunity to make money.

 

[Beige]

What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

 

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies.

 

 

It is CCG that is buying Matt's company.

 

You seem to be the company shill.

Tell us all why we should trust CGC with an on-site pressing and restoration service, when before CGC in some cases had no idea what was pressed or not.

Go on.

Do it - you know you want to...

[mintcollector]

Just wow. It doesn't even matter if you think Matt is nice and honorable, which I do. This is a cluster of a decision. To me, CGC sells trust. This erodes trust just like it did the first time the move was proposed.

 

If one company owns a company selling a service meant to increase a grade and a company which grades, that's a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest means less trust. If there were a way to know which books go through CI first, I would trust that grade less.

 

 

CGC doesn't sell trust. They sell an evaluation, and they make the rules by which that evaluation happens. It's up to us to buy into their rules, and judging by their wait times, they've had plenty of buy in.

 

If they're not selling trust, what are they selling? Trust in their grading ability. Trust in the impartiality (not grading certain people's book more favorably). Trust they won't damage your book. So on and so on.

How does adding Matt change any of that?

 

 

You may look at it differently because you are already an expert and probably know what should improve a grade, so you might not have the same need for Matt's input...but when I would meet with Matt, years ago, about a book, he would TELL me, what he would suggest be done to the book, to improve the grade. Fixing this or that, or pressing (he pretty much always suggested pressing). I collect older lower grade books and the ones I wanted "fixed" had restoration already...so maybe there was more that he could tell me...

 

However, I think there is an issue, with a grading company owning another company that can "improve" the books.

 

Let's say the graders are impartial (which I hope and expect they are)...what happens if the book comes back a lower grade than Matt guesses, or as restored when Matt says it should no longer show as restored. I've had that happen when I gave him books. Will there be a do-over? Will you have to pay another set of CGC fees?

 

The last time I gave Matt a book to remove restoration, some was missed. I was told I'd have to resubmit it to him and to pay CGC again until the resto was found,, that was the "normal" procedure. What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

I wish Matt luck, and congratulations...but I DO think there are going to be many issues here.

 

I have already mentioned this on page 14 (unsure what page exactly, as my post is 'buried' like most others in this thread) and others have mentioned this after me, but I fail to see how this is any different than the relationship between NCS and NGC; BOTH owned and operated by the Certified Collectibles Group?

 

At the end of the day when the dust settles, this will have almost ZERO effect on the hobby as a whole. Pressing is already a wide spread practice. If you saw my post in the comic book grading and restoration issues sub-forum; I have been what I call a 'major' collector of comic books since 2008; buying most of my books when the market went into a free fall in 2010. I just submitted my first submission for pressing months ago. Interestingly enough, out of three books chosen for a possible upgrade out of nine sent; only ONE got a grde bump of ONE lone grade (9.2 to a 9.4). The other two pressed and graded came back the same grade sent; and six were rejected for pressing.

 

The reason why this is 'major news' in 'comic book collecting land' is because it now affects your (or our) chosen collecting field. This is NOTHING compared to what happens in other fields of the antiques and collectibles market; which I am involved in. Even collectors of 'rare' books face more prominent threats then taking an original comic book and attempting to 'press' out a corner ding or bend or stress line.

 

In conclusion, I really think it comes down to how an INDIVIDUAL collector defines 'pressing.' I see pressing as minor conservation. Others see it as restoration. Frankly, I don't care about it; as I buy well known 'pressed' books all the time. That being said, I can understand why a person who may consider this process 'restoration' being upset over the announcement.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

 

Edited November 17, 2012 by mintcollector

[skypinkblu]

Just wow. It doesn't even matter if you think Matt is nice and honorable, which I do. This is a cluster of a decision. To me, CGC sells trust. This erodes trust just like it did the first time the move was proposed.

 

If one company owns a company selling a service meant to increase a grade and a company which grades, that's a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest means less trust. If there were a way to know which books go through CI first, I would trust that grade less.

 

 

CGC doesn't sell trust. They sell an evaluation, and they make the rules by which that evaluation happens. It's up to us to buy into their rules, and judging by their wait times, they've had plenty of buy in.

 

If they're not selling trust, what are they selling? Trust in their grading ability. Trust in the impartiality (not grading certain people's book more favorably). Trust they won't damage your book. So on and so on.

 

They're selling an evaluation that most of their customers rely (wish?) on to make money. It isn't about trust. If it was trust, then they'd grade strictly, not loose enough to get max value out of a book. CGC isn't in business to give collectors trust. You'd like that to be the case, but it's just not their business model. Just look at their advertising (Your book is worth 10X more in a CGC slab!!!) They are in business to make money, and the best way to do that for this market is to tantalize others with the opportunity to make money.

 

Actually, you just gave me an idea, Dan...99.8 percent of my collection is not slabbed/pressed etc...maybe I should start selling more books...they will all have POTENTIAL:) :

[ComicConnoisseur]

This is the penultimate pressing thread.

 

Another floating doo doo in the CGC board's pool. ::

 

Have a few scotches, and laugh a little. They're just comics.

 

For the most part comics that had a little value of less than a dollar until someone put a 9.8 or sig on them. Think about it,as most bronze, copper and modern comic book books valued at nm in Overstreet go for a few dollars at best in nm, but when you put that 9.6 or 9.8 label on them, then the value goes up significantly or if the 9.8 doesn`t work, then add a sig as well for the book to have some value.

It`s all about artificial value created for the majority of these comics because if you took off that 9.8 or it didn`t get that sig with someone witnessing it, then the nm comic reverts back to being worth to less than a dollar.

Myself from now on I am sticking to just golden age and silver age comics to be certified,as the rest of the market just doesn`t seem like a good bet, unless they are super uber keys.

Who cares if I get the latest issue of the Image hot comic book in 9.8 and sig if everybody else has one as well? Where is the future value in that? It reminds me of the Franklin Mint and the manufacturing of collectibles.

 

You post like a guy who has no interest in modern comic books and yet you post in the modern forums regarding your speculation "picks" and must buys. Which side of the fence do you sit on? It's fine to act high and mighty but you do realize that we can search your previous posts right? Like this one today...

 

My pick

Get them now because later you will be paying double cover for them.

 

That wasn`t a comic book that I would get slabbed. I will only get gold and silver age comic books certified,as it would be ridiculous of me to get a modern comic book like Borderlands or it`s similar kind pressed into a 9.8 or sig.

Thanks for pointing this out. (thumbs u

 

Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from (thumbs u

No problem.

To me fair is the buying and selling of raw Walking Dead`s on Ebay, what won`t be fair is all these newbies who are spending hundreds on the latest modern all proped up in a fancy 9.8 slab,and then get disappointed when they will get offered less than a $20 spot for them in a few years.

 

Everybody who collects for any length of time has been there. Not everything holds value, whether slabbed or not ( let's see where non- key WDs are in 5 years, for an example). But to suggest that moderns shouldn't be slabbed smacks of "what I collect rules and what you collect sucks".

That`s not what I am getting at. My point is most moderns have a value of cover and less, but when you put them in a CGC 9.8 they now get artificial value.

Take them out of their slabs and they are only having the value of a read.

This is much different than Walking Dead #1 or AF#15 because you can take Walking Dead#1 and AF #15 out of their slabs, and they will still hold value.

The majority of copper and modern comics would lose value, and I mean lose value big time to having thier value be worth less than a buck or two if ever taken out of slab and sold raw.

That is because as I just pointed out they have

ARTIFICIAL VALUE

that was created to make money for a few savy people.

I am surprised not many people on this edumacated board have not figured this it out by now.

 

 

From its inception CGC has codified the minute subdivisions of NM that drive these values, and it works on all eras. Should a 9.8 really be worth 2-3x or more the price of a virtually identical 9.6 just because the label says they are different? I would say no, but others disagree. But those differences in value aren't artificial, because they clearly exist. The debate is over whether or not those differences are justified, which is a different matter.

The digital 9s were created because the savy people figured out a nm book wouldn`t be worth slabbing. That`s how I see it, and for someone to suggest something different is like someone offering me a famous bridge in brooklyn for sale.

[drbanner]

However, I think there is an issue, with a grading company owning another company that can "improve" the books.

 

Exactly, there is an undeniable issue here.

 

I deal with Conflict of Interest (COI) and Confidential Business Information (CBI) all the time professionally, and you avoid COI not by not having COI, but by not having the perception of the opportunity for COI. Having the same company press your books that grades your books is almost certainly a COI, but must certainly be considered providing opportunity for COI to even the most ardent head-in-the-sand CGC supporters. Or maybe not...

 

And it's laughable to think that a CGC submission form that now asks whether or not you want your books "maximized" before grading isn't going to have a dramatic effect on census numbers moving forward, regardless of what some here think. I do feel sorry for all the folks that put together their collections (investments) before this point, one only has to look at David's recent liquidating of his sweet 8.0 collection of books to see what effect the "perception" of the CPR game has had on the hobby, and that was before the insitutionalized pressing we are about to see. It's a game changer...and not for the better.

[skypinkblu]

What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

 

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies.

 

 

It is CCG that is buying Matt's company.

 

Classics only works on comics, unless they spread out to coins and cards, the issue is only relevant with CGC items...so the relationship is there, between the two parts of the umbrella company. You can try and spin it as if it's not...but they didn't "acquire" classics because they would help the coin/card business.

[shrunkenhead]

 

 

 

At the end of the day when the dust settles, this will have almost ZERO effect on the hobby as a whole. Pressing is already a wide spread practice. If you saw my post in the comic book grading and restoration issues sub-forum; I have been what I call a 'major' collector of comic books since 2008; buying most of my books when the market went into a free fall in 2010. I just submitted my first submission for pressing months ago. Interestingly enough, out of three books chosen for a possible upgrade out of nine sent; only ONE got a grde bump of ONE lone grade (9.2 to a 9.4). The other two pressed and graded came back the same grade sent; and six were rejected for pressing.

 

 

 

 

So what book got the one grade bump? I can see you thinking it's insignificant if it were a two or three-figure book. But what about the person who presses a spidey 1 from a 9.2 to a 9.4? It seems to me you're overlooking some of the ramifications for the upper tiers of the hobby.

[ComicConnoisseur]

They have, they're just not replying to you.

Oh welcome back! I missed you since your second FDQ exit!

 

You'll have to point that one out to me. Good luck in finding it. (thumbs u

You really want me to go back and search for a thread from a few years ago when you where some upset at the board that you announced you were quitting? Please I think your first FDQ was in 2008 or 2009! I really don`t have the time to go search, plus this search function really sucks now.

 

 

Yep I got pissed once over something and decided to do one, I could probably find it for you. Second time? Naa, I just pissed off for personal reasons. No great announcement. It's good to know you pay so much interest in me to know what I was doing two years before you got here though. It's weird but gives me a warm, tingly feeling.

Because I like you,as you add to the board, and also you have the best board name Boozad.

How could I not be interested?

(thumbs u

[Boozad]

They have, they're just not replying to you.

Oh welcome back! I missed you since your second FDQ exit!

 

You'll have to point that one out to me. Good luck in finding it. (thumbs u

You really want me to go back and search for a thread from a few years ago when you where some upset at the board that you announced you were quitting? Please I think your first FDQ was in 2008 or 2009! I really don`t have the time to go search, plus this search function really sucks now.

 

 

Yep I got pissed once over something and decided to do one, I could probably find it for you. Second time? Naa, I just pissed off for personal reasons. No great announcement. It's good to know you pay so much interest in me to know what I was doing two years before you got here though. It's weird but gives me a warm, tingly feeling.

Because I like you,as you add to the board, and also you have the best board name Boozad.

How could I not be interested?

(thumbs u

 

[skypinkblu]

Just wow. It doesn't even matter if you think Matt is nice and honorable, which I do. This is a cluster of a decision. To me, CGC sells trust. This erodes trust just like it did the first time the move was proposed.

 

If one company owns a company selling a service meant to increase a grade and a company which grades, that's a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest means less trust. If there were a way to know which books go through CI first, I would trust that grade less.

 

 

CGC doesn't sell trust. They sell an evaluation, and they make the rules by which that evaluation happens. It's up to us to buy into their rules, and judging by their wait times, they've had plenty of buy in.

 

If they're not selling trust, what are they selling? Trust in their grading ability. Trust in the impartiality (not grading certain people's book more favorably). Trust they won't damage your book. So on and so on.

How does adding Matt change any of that?

 

 

You may look at it differently because you are already an expert and probably know what should improve a grade, so you might not have the same need for Matt's input...but when I would meet with Matt, years ago, about a book, he would TELL me, what he would suggest be done to the book, to improve the grade. Fixing this or that, or pressing (he pretty much always suggested pressing). I collect older lower grade books and the ones I wanted "fixed" had restoration already...so maybe there was more that he could tell me...

 

However, I think there is an issue, with a grading company owning another company that can "improve" the books.

 

Let's say the graders are impartial (which I hope and expect they are)...what happens if the book comes back a lower grade than Matt guesses, or as restored when Matt says it should no longer show as restored. I've had that happen when I gave him books. Will there be a do-over? Will you have to pay another set of CGC fees?

 

The last time I gave Matt a book to remove restoration, some was missed. I was told I'd have to resubmit it to him and to pay CGC again until the resto was found,, that was the "normal" procedure. What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

I wish Matt luck, and congratulations...but I DO think there are going to be many issues here.

 

I have already mentioned this on page 14 (unsure what page exactly, as my post is 'buried' like most others in this thread) and others have mentioned this after me, but I fail to see how this is any different than the relationship between NCS and NGC; BOTH owned and operated by the Certified Collectibles Group?

 

At the end of the day when the dust settles, this will have almost ZERO effect on the hobby as a whole. Pressing is already a wide spread practice. If you saw my post in the comic book grading and restoration issues sub-forum; I have been what I call a 'major' collector of comic books since 2008; buying most of my books when the market went into a free fall in 2010. I just submitted my first submission for pressing months ago. Interestingly enough, out of three books chosen for a possible upgrade out of nine sent; only ONE got a grde bump of ONE lone grade (9.2 to a 9.4). The other two pressed and graded came back the same grade sent; and six were rejected for pressing.

 

The reason why this is 'major news' in 'comic book collecting land' is because it now affects your (or our) chosen collecting field. This is NOTHING compared to what happens in other fields of the antiques and collectibles market; which I am involved in. Even collectors of 'rare' books face more prominent threats then taking an original comic book and attempting to 'press' out a corner ding or bend or stress line.

 

In conclusion, I really think it comes down to how an INDIVIDUAL collector defines 'pressing.' I see pressing as minor conservation. Others see it as restoration. Frankly, I don't care about it; as I buy well known 'pressed' books all the time. That being said, I can understand why a person who may consider this process 'restoration' being upset over the announcement.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

 

Classics does not just do "pressing", they remove restoration...attempt to turn a book in a purple label, into a book with a blue label.

[xsmr2-migration]

What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

 

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies.

 

 

It is CCG that is buying Matt's company.

 

Classics only works on comics, unless they spread out to coins and cards, the issue is only relevant with CGC items...so the relationship is there, between the two parts of the umbrella company.

 

 

So why has there never been a problem with CCG owning both NGC and NCS?