Superman: The Man of Steel #17 & 18 (Doomsday) 3 3

[GM8]

Well, alright then , let's have a go at this

 

 

Later printings of copper/early modern age keys have sold at prices well above 1st printings for a few years.

 

Not all of thr reprints have sustained their value i.e. Wolverine 41 2nd print in CGC 9.8 has taken a big dive from its'GPS high of around $500.

 

I'd say that is b/c it isn't a key book, back in the 90's it was a hot book (the 1st printing) b/c it had a Wolverine/Cable/Sabretooth crossover battle.

 

It is just is harder in grade due to the gold cover inks being easily abraded and the fact that most collectors didn't value 2nd prints as anything more than readers/hole fillers.

 

As such, these sorts of books were thrown into 50 cent boxes and not thrown in Mylars like the 1st printings were.

 

Left unbagged/unboarded in a long box and lugged around to shows with the public rifling thru said box with heavy hands , a book like Wolverine #41 would have taken a beating......stacking transfer on the gold cover inks, the same and abrasions on the mostly black back cover, as well are both issues with that 2nd print.....so the 2nd print is much harder than the 1st, in 9.8.

 

Books like Wolverine #41 still are a ppiece of nostalgia for copper collectors who have a soft spot for Wolvie,Sabretooth and Cable....... it is just not a key like MOS 18.....so the 2nd print has dipped in FMV.

 

 

 

Books like the 1st printings of MOS 18 which has been established as the 1st app of Doomsday, had fairly high print runs.

 

Keep in mind MOS 18 is Doomsday's 1st full app....so this book is a legit key book, in relation to the DC movie universe.*

 

Subsequent printings had lower and lower print runs.They were all virtually printed back to back, on a (presumably) weekly basis as comic shops had increased demand when the printings continued to sell through.

 

Again, the later printings were not thought to hold any real collectible value.

 

*MOS 18 later printings are now considered relatively scarce in grade and cough, cough...this is now considered a legit key book....Doomsday's 1st app in very high grade is not a relatively common book.

 

Unlike MOS 18 1st prints....where collectors/speculators bought multiple copies and immediately bagged/boarded them, presuming each $1.25 book would be a $20-$50 book in a month's time....and they were right.1st prints of MOS 18 sold at $20 or more quickly when the hype about Superman's death was escalated after being reported in Time and Newsweek.

 

A glaring example of this 1990's soeculative hoarding of MOS 18 1st prints can be found all over eBay.

 

One eBay seller , over the last month or so, has listed 10 copy auction lots of MOS 18 1st prints, grading each copy as NM/MT 9.8...auction style..the last lot of 10 raw "NM/MT 9.8" sold for over $300, this was right aftet the news broke confirming Doomsday in the upcoming Bats/Sups film.

 

The lowest the lots of 10 raw "NM/MT 9.8" batches closed for in auction was around $125, before the confirmation was made.

 

The books did appear to be 9.6/9.8 candidates.Assume the buyers of these 10 lots receive the books...look them over and send off 5 out of every 10 to be graded....as is, or pressed.Assume the not so 9.8 potential copies, half of the 10 book lots, are listed on eBay as raw NM at $20 or so, per book.Assume 5 out of every ten of those "NM/MT 9.8" copies comes back from CGC as a split between 9.4, 9.6 and 9.8.

 

 

 

Expect the census to see an uptick in 9.4 to 9.8 MOS 18 1st prints over the next few months.

 

You won't see much of an increase in MOS 18 later printings, for the reasons already cited.

 

 

Bone #1 had a very low print run.

 

The paper stock on Bone #1 is known for being not all thst great.You can't press out color breaks and nothing can be done with fingerprints thst have migrated into the paper itself either.

 

There you have a tough book in 9.8, for 2 reasons....looow print run and the fact that Bone#1 is a book that can't, in most cases, be doctored up by a dry clean & press.

 

Bone quckly picked up a large following and later printings had considerably HIGHER prints runs than the 1st print, that is another factor to figure into the equation.

 

IIRC, the later printings of Bone were also produced with higher quality paper stock as Jeff Smith had the money to have the books printed on better paper stock, after he started turning a profit off of his work.

 

Great analysis. I wouldn't compare this to the later printings of Wolverine #41 for the reasons you cited. I would guess that any key book that has genuine long-term demand like a first appearance can sustain bigger prices on rarer, later printings. But we'll see.

 

A lot of people still don't have the memo. A 5th print of #18 sold BIN just the other day for $12.97 or so.

Edited December 16, 2015 by GM8

[valiantman]

The number of buyers for reprints will always be lower than the number of buyers for first printings, particularly if the reprints cost more than the first prints.

 

I agree that the reprints of Man of Steel #18 are selling for more than first printings, and I agree that they will continue to sell for more than first printings until the reprint supply exceeds the demand for reprints.

 

If that never happens, the reprints will continue to win the value game.

But, if the supply of reprints exceeds the demand for reprints... the price will fall.

 

The number of first printings doesn't matter... because they are first printings.

They have a full-sized market based on being first printings.

 

Besides the relative scarcity... reprints don't have anything else going for them.

They aren't first appearances. They are reprints of first appearances.

They don't have a full-sized market. They're always a subset of the full market.

If the relative scarcity doesn't hold up, neither will the prices.

[GM8]

^ Collector's aren't treating them as reprints, and certainly not valuing them as if they're not first appearances. They're treating them like variants at the same level as all printings of the same issue.

 

The scarcity will hold up because that's exactly what their limited print runs created. A 2nd print of MoS #18 will never be as valuable as the 4th or 5th.

 

It irked me in the beginning as to why these comics had these errors (in my mind) in value. But they're not errors at all - the market is always right.

[RockMyAmadeus]

^ Collector's aren't treating them as reprints, and certainly not valuing them as if they're not first appearances. They're treating them like variants at the same level as all printings of the same issue.

 

This is absolutely correct.

 

It irked me in the beginning as to why these comics had these errors (in my mind) in value. But they're not errors at all - the market is always right.

 

What time frame are you referring to?

 

Until Batman #612, the market universally rejected later printings as having any value. It's taken a long time for that stigma to dissipate.

[divad]

^ Collector's aren't treating them as reprints, and certainly not valuing them as if they're not first appearances. They're treating them like variants at the same level as all printings of the same issue.

 

This is absolutely correct.

 

Presently, yes. But do you really think that will hold up? I don't. I think it's stoopid.

 

Heck, why not release a 6th (VI) printing in conjunction with the movie? (DC are you listening?)

[thecopperagekids]

^ Collector's aren't treating them as reprints, and certainly not valuing them as if they're not first appearances. They're treating them like variants at the same level as all printings of the same issue.

 

The scarcity will hold up because that's exactly what their limited print runs created. A 2nd print of MoS #18 will never be as valuable as the 4th or 5th.

 

It irked me in the beginning as to why these comics had these errors (in my mind) in value. But they're not errors at all - the market is always right.

 

 

 

 

That is exactly what I was saying above, albeit in a more condensed form.

 

Thanks for breaking it down

[GM8]

^ Collector's aren't treating them as reprints, and certainly not valuing them as if they're not first appearances. They're treating them like variants at the same level as all printings of the same issue.

 

This is absolutely correct.

 

It irked me in the beginning as to why these comics had these errors (in my mind) in value. But they're not errors at all - the market is always right.

 

What time frame are you referring to?

 

Until Batman #612, the market universally rejected later printings as having any value. It's taken a long time for that stigma to dissipate.

 

I didn't see Batman 612 play out. I just got back into collecting comics last year (though I've been doing it on and off for a looooong time). That's when I noticed these later prints surpassing the originals. My frame of reference on these is the original TMNT series with value descending on successive prints. But the increasing print run numbers were very important to those market prices. Perception was too. Today they blast the first prints and then later prints are only fractions of the first. The market knows the supply. The higher pricing of scarcer prints will only continue in my opinion.

[GM8]

^ Collector's aren't treating them as reprints, and certainly not valuing them as if they're not first appearances. They're treating them like variants at the same level as all printings of the same issue.

 

This is absolutely correct.

 

Presently, yes. But do you really think that will hold up? I don't. I think it's stoopid.

 

Heck, why not release a 6th (VI) printing in conjunction with the movie? (DC are you listening?)

 

I thought it was stupid too but now I can see how it makes sense. Those months it took for the successive printings to be released look like the same time now many years afterwards.

 

Who knows what a 6th printing today would do. Look at Batman Adventures #12 with the new variants. It's 2 decades later! We'll see how those values hold up but I just shake my head with that one. Its all about scarcity there but its just like your 6th print of MoS 18 example.

[GM8]

That is exactly what I was saying above, albeit in a more condensed form.

 

Thanks for breaking it down

 

You got it.

 

You mentioned the Bone #1 reprints, which I'm not familiar with. What was/is their story?

[vader2001]

4th print 3 Universal + 2 SS 9.8

 

 

Yahoo! I have 20% of these!

[valiantman]

That is exactly what I was saying above, albeit in a more condensed form.

 

Thanks for breaking it down

 

You got it.

 

You mentioned the Bone #1 reprints, which I'm not familiar with. What was/is their story?

 

Bone #1 is a 1991 book that went to multiple reprintings... all of which have been viewed as "worthless reprints" despite the fact that the CGC census parallels the Man of Steel #18 reprints.

 

Man of Steel #18 (1992)

CGC Universal plus Signature

First print = 1,805 copies

Second print = 44 copies

Third print = 35 copies

Fourth print = 11 copies

Fifth print = 35 copies

 

Bone #1 (1991)

CGC Universal plus Signature

First print = 182 copies

Second print = 13 copies

Third print = 3 copies

Fourth print = 2 copies

Fifth print = 2 copies

Sixth print = 1 copy

Seventh print = 5 copies

Eighth print = 1 copy

Ninth print = 1 copy

 

There are 10 times fewer first prints on the CGC census for Bone #1 (compared to Man of Steel #18) and the price for Man of Steel #18 is more than 10 times lower than Bone #1.

 

But the Bone #1 (which is worth $1,000+ as a high grade first printing) reprints are basically worthless.

There are fewer Bone #1 reprints on the CGC census... and it's not clear how many were printed (or how easy they are to find today).

 

Do we think that the market for Bone #1 reprints will slowly rise closer to the value of the Bone #1 first prints (because Man of Steel #18 reprints are valuable)...

or is it more likely that the market for Man of Steel #18 reprints will slowly fall to reflect the standard view of reprints like Bone #1 reprints?

 

It's unlikely that these two Copper Age keys will have opposite behaving markets in the long run.

Markets show a regression to the mean (return to normal behavior) at some point.

[thecopperagekids]

Bone #1 in CGC 9.8 last sold for over $3200, no other recirded sales b/c the CGC 9.8's are all in personal collections.

 

I have never seen a Bone #1 CGC 9.8 offered for sale, that is how tough of a book it is.So it should be worth as many MOS 18 4th &5th print CGC 9.8's as you can carry in your arms.

 

The reprints of Bone #1 , did not come out the same month, as MOS 18 reprints did.....and the reprints had much higher print runs than the 1st printing of Bone #1.

 

GPA data on Bone #1 printings doesn't tell much of a story.

 

I do think that a 2nd printing of Bone in CGC 9.8 is probably worth anywhere from $500-$1000.

 

I do not know the breakdown of Bone printings nearly as well as I know the breakdown on MOS 18 printings.I never really studied that very much as finding pressable/gradeable copies of Bone#1 1991 reprints is not on the same level of risk/reward ratio as finding pressable/gradeable MOS 18 reprints is.

 

To be honest, I never really even looked and certainly have not hunted down Bone 1991 reprints like Ihave done with MOS 18 reprints.

 

As far as a 6th printing of MOS 18, I am sure DC will print one soon enough and it will have variants, just like the BA 12 2015 reprint.

 

And just like the 2015 printing of BA 12, it will be a gimmick/cash grab book with CGC 9.8's offered for sale right away....and they will likely fly at $100-$200, depending on the print run of each variant.

 

2 months later, those super hot MOS 18 6th printing CGC 9.8 standard and variant covers will drop to a fraction of their initial selling prices, once the initial wave of "gotta have it suckers" actually wise up and realize they are paying $100-$200 for a brand new comic, based solely on movie hype and the fact the book is in a CGC 9.8 holder.

 

 

[valiantman]

The reprints of Bone #1 , did not come out the same month, as MOS 18 reprints did.....

We agree that MOS 18 fifth printing is from years later, right?

 

To be honest, I never really even looked and certainly have not hunted down Bone 1991 reprints like I have done with MOS 18 reprints.

That's part of my point. If MOS 18 reprints are a "turning point" in the hobby due to the scarcity of the reprints for a Copper Age key issue and the number of years that passed before anyone started looking for them, then we've all got an even bigger opportunity to change our view of a bigger Copper Age key (Bone #1) which has reprints that have been overlooked by everyone for even longer.

 

If there are reasons to value MOS 18 reprints, then there are potentially more reasons to value Bone 1 reprints.

 

Or, like many reprints, the MOS 18 reprints don't have a bright future... they have a temporary shine.

[Broke as a Joke]

Speaking for myself, I have no interest in any other printings besides the first print. Basing value of second and later printings solely on print run basically makes it a manufactured collectible.

 

Besides TMNT #1, is there any book where the second printing had a higher print run than the original?

[valiantman]

Speaking for myself, I have no interest in any other printings besides the first print. Basing value of second and later printings solely on print run basically makes it a manufactured collectible.

 

Besides TMNT #1, is there any book where the second printing had a higher print run than the original?

It might be common in self-published books. Mouse Guard #1, for example. TMNT #1 was nothing when it was first printed.

 

I'm at a loss to think of a Marvel or DC example where the second printing wasn't automatically "rarer" than the first.

 

I'm guessing the reprintings of Walking Dead #1 may outnumber the originals.

[rjrjr]

Speaking for myself, I have no interest in any other printings besides the first print. Basing value of second and later printings solely on print run basically makes it a manufactured collectible.

 

Besides TMNT #1, is there any book where the second printing had a higher print run than the original?

It might be common in self-published books. Mouse Guard #1, for example. TMNT #1 was nothing when it was first printed.

 

I'm at a loss to think of a Marvel or DC example where the second printing wasn't automatically "rarer" than the first.

 

Star Wars (1977) #1 - 4 newsstand reprints

Star Wars (1977) #1 - 6 direct (or Whitman) reprints

Edited December 17, 2015 by rjrjr

[valiantman]

Speaking for myself, I have no interest in any other printings besides the first print. Basing value of second and later printings solely on print run basically makes it a manufactured collectible.

 

Besides TMNT #1, is there any book where the second printing had a higher print run than the original?

It might be common in self-published books. Mouse Guard #1, for example. TMNT #1 was nothing when it was first printed.

 

I'm at a loss to think of a Marvel or DC example where the second printing wasn't automatically "rarer" than the first.

 

Star Wars (1977) #1 - 4.

You're saying there are more reprints of Star Wars #1 - #4 than first prints?

[rjrjr]

Speaking for myself, I have no interest in any other printings besides the first print. Basing value of second and later printings solely on print run basically makes it a manufactured collectible.

 

Besides TMNT #1, is there any book where the second printing had a higher print run than the original?

It might be common in self-published books. Mouse Guard #1, for example. TMNT #1 was nothing when it was first printed.

 

I'm at a loss to think of a Marvel or DC example where the second printing wasn't automatically "rarer" than the first.

 

Star Wars (1977) #1 - 4.

You're saying there are more reprints of Star Wars #1 - #4 than first prints?

 

From 1977, absolutely. Although I may walk back my answer of newsstand reprints. #1 - 4 newsstand are definitely common but I believe the 1st prints for #2 - 6 are definitely more easily found. #5 and 6 newsstand are harder to find than $0.35 variants with #6 being magnitudes harder than #5. I would say the direct (Whitman) reprints of #1 - 6 are definitely more common than the 1st prints. The problem is, which is the 2nd print?

Edited December 17, 2015 by rjrjr

[valiantman]

Speaking for myself, I have no interest in any other printings besides the first print. Basing value of second and later printings solely on print run basically makes it a manufactured collectible.

 

Besides TMNT #1, is there any book where the second printing had a higher print run than the original?

It might be common in self-published books. Mouse Guard #1, for example. TMNT #1 was nothing when it was first printed.

 

I'm at a loss to think of a Marvel or DC example where the second printing wasn't automatically "rarer" than the first.

 

Star Wars (1977) #1 - 4.

You're saying there are more reprints of Star Wars #1 - #4 than first prints?

From 1977, absolutely.

Those first prints were massive.

Sure, the reprints fill a nice gap in the (eventual) demand, but do they outnumber the first prints?

[Broke as a Joke]

What was the initial print run on Star Wars #1? I know the later printings were never labeled as second or third printings, just reprint. So it is hard to know exactly what Marvel actually produced the first time they reprinted it.