Superman: The Man of Steel #17 & 18 (Doomsday) 3 3

[Bosco685]

PS. The whole Death of Superman storyline was pretty bad, from a literary standpoint.

 

We have an antagonist who just "shows up", with no back story whatsoever, and in the course of 6 issues, manages to take down the most powerful superhero in the DCU (yes, let's not talk about Spectre, et al.) without any explanation at all. There was no setup, there were no plot elements introduced earlier, there was nothing at all that made us care one whit about "Doomsday", or why he/she/it would or should have A. the motive, B. the opportunity, C. the ability to take down Supes.

 

It was a stunt, a gimmick, and boy did it sell books.

 

But as a literary work, it is awful.

 

It really makes you appreciate the pacing and plotting of storylines like Dark Phoenix, which groundwork was laid beginning in 1976...and didn't culminate until 1980.

 

I imagine, to young teens, it was the thrill of a lifetime.

 

But, just like watching The Poseidon Adventure (1972) as an adult, it wasn't ever very good to begin with.

 

I can get behind this statement! I tried to re-read the run recently, and put down the third book to go watch the news.

 

[Brandon Shepherd]

PS. The whole Death of Superman storyline was pretty bad, from a literary standpoint.

 

We have an antagonist who just "shows up", with no back story whatsoever, and in the course of 6 issues, manages to take down the most powerful superhero in the DCU (yes, let's not talk about Spectre, et al.) without any explanation at all. There was no setup, there were no plot elements introduced earlier, there was nothing at all that made us care one whit about "Doomsday", or why he/she/it would or should have A. the motive, B. the opportunity, C. the ability to take down Supes.

 

It was a stunt, a gimmick, and boy did it sell books.

 

But as a literary work, it is awful.

 

It really makes you appreciate the pacing and plotting of storylines like Dark Phoenix, which groundwork was laid beginning in 1976...and didn't culminate until 1980.

 

I imagine, to young teens, it was the thrill of a lifetime.

 

But, just like watching The Poseidon Adventure (1972) as an adult, it wasn't ever very good to begin with.

 

 

Oh yeah! Removing the goggles of childhood nostalgia and replacing them with viewers of an adult who's innocence is long gone, this statement rings true.

 

The Poseidon Adventure...

[RockMyAmadeus]

PS. The whole Death of Superman storyline was pretty bad, from a literary standpoint.

 

We have an antagonist who just "shows up", with no back story whatsoever, and in the course of 6 issues, manages to take down the most powerful superhero in the DCU (yes, let's not talk about Spectre, et al.) without any explanation at all. There was no setup, there were no plot elements introduced earlier, there was nothing at all that made us care one whit about "Doomsday", or why he/she/it would or should have A. the motive, B. the opportunity, C. the ability to take down Supes.

 

It was a stunt, a gimmick, and boy did it sell books.

 

But as a literary work, it is awful.

 

It really makes you appreciate the pacing and plotting of storylines like Dark Phoenix, which groundwork was laid beginning in 1976...and didn't culminate until 1980.

 

I imagine, to young teens, it was the thrill of a lifetime.

 

But, just like watching The Poseidon Adventure (1972) as an adult, it wasn't ever very good to begin with.

 

 

Oh yeah! Removing the goggles of childhood nostalgia and replacing them with viewers of an adult who's innocence is long gone, this statement rings true.

 

Sad, but true. If you enjoyed something tremendously as a child, be very wary of revisiting it as an adult. Save your happy memories intact!

 

The Poseidon Adventure...

 

Quick story about that: when I was 8 or 9 or so (1980-1981), I saw TPA on a Saturday afternoon movie on TV. It was THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER OMGWTFBBQGARBBB!!! It was so awesome, I couldn't believe how awesome it was.

 

But...this was the early 80's, so you didn't have easy access to old movies like you do now. So, of course, I didn't have it to watch, and it likely wasn't released on video anyways.

 

Fast forward to 1995 or so...I'm in college, and I'm at Costco, and lo and behold, THERE IT IS! TPA on VHS! I had to have it, no two ways about it. I eagerly bought it, watched it...

 

...and was thoroughly disappointed by how absolutely drekky it was. I mean, really, it's one of the lousiest movies ever made, with plot holes you can drive a truck through. As a means of shattering silly childhood illusions, I'm very glad I watched it...but, at the same time, it was a huge letdown to know that what I enjoyed as a kid was so bloody awful.

 

Why Gene Hackman, fresh off his Oscar win for the French Connection, consented to make this movie, I'll never know.

 

[Brandon Shepherd]

I watched part of it with my parents in the mid '90s as a teen. All I remember about it besides a ship capsizing was a girl with a long red skirt having to rip her dress off to climb something, and just so happening to have on red shorts underneath.

 

I also feel the same way about Independence Day and you do about P.A. Awesome as a kid, all spoon as an adult.

[valiantman]

Dumb question: What, if anything, does Doomsday's confirmed inclusion in Batman v Superman mean for the value of these books?

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done.

 

Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271.

 

Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18.

 

The pattern of rise and fall in prices before and after the movie doesn't depend on the number of copies... it's about the roller-coaster pattern.

 

Great Scott...... There are almost 2000 copies submitted to cgc??

There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98

 

Are you sure about that...?

 

Now I wish I had a copy of SCCB at my office.

Man of Steel #18 didn't make the 1992 Top Yearly Sales list... (but #19 and #20 did).

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1992.html

 

Since #300 is X-O Manowar #14, and since the estimated print run was 225,000... MOS #18 direct sales would be below that number.

Your estimate for NM #98 was 250,000, it's pretty clear that NM #98 was printed in a higher number than MOS #18.

(I don't know if the newsstand sales and return rates would change that overall.)

 

I guess my assumption is that MOS #18 survived in higher numbers since it was a "Death of Superman" key from the start, while NM #98 was nothing special for several years.

I'd be very surprised if MOS #18 has fewer in existence today, but it's definitely possible!

[valiantman]

But wait. Doomsday is Zod in the DC movie universe. So shouldn't the first Zod appearance be still the book to get over MOS 18?

Adventure 283 has always been a sought after book. Surprisingly, not as widely discussed among collectors, but a huge book nonetheless

Zod is older than Spider-man, so Adventure #283 has a lot of potential... but you don't often find it in Copper Age dollar longboxes.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Dumb question: What, if anything, does Doomsday's confirmed inclusion in Batman v Superman mean for the value of these books?

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done.

 

Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271.

 

Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18.

 

The pattern of rise and fall in prices before and after the movie doesn't depend on the number of copies... it's about the roller-coaster pattern.

 

Broadly speaking, I would agree with that, except that the amount of surviving copies, especially of ultra high grade examples, has a leveling effect on the roller coaster that easy access to ultra high grade copies, as is the case with MOS #18, does not.

 

Great Scott...... There are almost 2000 copies submitted to cgc??

There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98

 

Are you sure about that...?

 

Now I wish I had a copy of SCCB at my office.

Man of Steel #18 didn't make the 1992 Top Yearly Sales list... (but #19 and #20 did).

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1992.html

 

Since #300 is X-O Manowar #14, and since the estimated print run was 225,000... MOS #18 direct sales would be below that number.

Your estimate for NM #98 was 250,000, it's pretty clear that NM #98 was printed in a higher number than MOS #18.

(I don't know if the newsstand sales and return rates would change that overall.)

 

I guess my assumption is that MOS #18 survived in higher numbers since it was a "Death of Superman" key from the start, while NM #98 was nothing special for several years.

I'd be very surprised if MOS #18 has fewer in existence today, but it's definitely possible!

 

That Standard Catalog...it's such an invaluable resource. In any event, the numbers look like this:

 

New Mutants #98 - 55,200

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

For the year 1990 (into which New Mutants #98 would fall) Diamond doesn't have a top 300 list. However, doing a cursory peruse through the SCCB, New Mutants #98 was *probably* in the #75-125 range, maybe a little higher, but certainly no lower than #150.

 

That year was dominated, of course, by McFarlane's Spiderman, easily taking the top 7 spots. Next up would be Batman, Batman:LOTDK, and Uncanny X-Men, which jostled the next 36 spots throughout the year. Shortly after would be Amazing Spiderman, and Wolverine would be in the mix there, too. After that, there's really not anything that definitively beats NM #98 for the year.

 

As most of us know, this was the era that was dominated by the hot artist, and at that point, Liefeld was on fire. No one cared about Deadpool...true...but it was still a Liefeld book, and orders for #98 and #99 barely let up from the smash hit X-Tinction Agenda issues. So, even if the book by itself wasn't anything particularly special, it still would have sold well and been maintained in the era of bagging and boarding everything.

 

By contrast, MOS #18, coming out just about two years later, was not heavily ordered, and had no lead up to it to give it any boost. Prior to the Death of Superman (DOS), it was a critically low selling title, as the numbers above show. We know that MOS #18 didn't even break the Diamond top 300 for 1992, and when looking at the Cap City numbers, we see why.

 

And orders for MOS #18 were less than half the orders for New Mutants #98. As I think we've discussed in this thread before, the jump in numbers for the DOS and Funeral storylines were unbelievable; it's certainly possible that they were the greatest per-issue sales leaps, both in terms of percentages, and certainly in terms of real numbers, in the entire history of comics. But...MOS #18 wasn't a benefactor of that, as the Cap City orders show.

 

MOS #18 was a full 5-6 weeks before Superman #75 came out, almost enough time (perhaps enough time, at the time) for retailers to up their orders for future issues, after that book came out. And while MOS #18 did enjoy a nearly 30% increase in Cap City orders over #17, #19 saw a 267% increase over #18, and an astonishing 417% increase over #17.

 

So, at least initially, unless Cap City had something strange going on, at least the initial print numbers show MOS #18 being roughly half of New Mutants #98.

 

That brings us to the next consideration: extant numbers, and how to arrive at those.

 

While it is true that MOS #18 was part of the DOS storyline, initially, it wasn't considered anything particularly special in and of itself. Yes, it was always known as "the first appearance of Doomsday", but it took a decided back seat to Superman #75, as did the rest of the issues. In fact, only the surprise issue of JLA #69 had any real aftermarket boost in value immediately following the events of the storyline. And, after Superman "came back to life" less than 6 months later, in one of the most successful "ha ha! We got you, suckas!" moments in comics history, the storyline eventually faded into obscurity, and nobody cared any more, except for #75, which has always maintained "some" value over the last 23+ years.

 

So, we start with a print run that is, roughly, 50% less than New Mutants #98. We know that New Mutants #98 wasn't any great shakes, but it came out at a time when everyone and their mother was buying 10+ copies of New Mutants to save.

 

Then, with MOS #18, we see that same sort of "initial" popularity, and even of the same sort: not the focus, but certainly ancillary to the events of the day (Liefeld/Cable on New Mutants, DOS.)

 

Finally, we see both issues drift into obscurity, and end up in the cheapo boxes, for approximately two decades each.

 

My analysis is that, due to these circumstances, there would be roughly, within 10% either way, the same survival percentage of copies, in the same types of grades, due to the similarity of the circumstances surrounding each issue. What really limits #18, and why it has surprisingly maintained value, is that it started out, by all appearances, at about half the numbers for New Mutants #98, at least extrapolating from the Cap City numbers.

 

We don't know newsstand numbers, but there had been, by late 1992, not an inconsiderable falloff in newsstand sales overall over late 1990. Those may not have much bearing; newsstand copies for both books, especially in ultra high grade, appear to be quite rare, relative to their Direct counterparts.

 

So, while we see 8,000 or so copies of New Mutants #98 on the census, with certainly more to come, I don't believe we'll see even half that number of MOS #18, because they just don't appear to have been made in the same quantities, even if both books appear on the market with the same relative frequency today. And Doomsday would have to approach Deadpool-level popularity to flush those sorts of numbers out, if they exist. Deadpool is, for the time being, the most popular Marvel creation of the 1990's, and perhaps since Hulk #181. (Harley would be the DC equivalent, and she's the most popular DC character created since the 50's, by all appearances.)

 

 

[cd4ever]

Dumb question: What, if anything, does Doomsday's confirmed inclusion in Batman v Superman mean for the value of these books?

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done.

 

Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271.

 

Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18.

 

The pattern of rise and fall in prices before and after the movie doesn't depend on the number of copies... it's about the roller-coaster pattern.

 

Broadly speaking, I would agree with that, except that the amount of surviving copies, especially of ultra high grade examples, has a leveling effect on the roller coaster that easy access to ultra high grade copies, as is the case with MOS #18, does not.

 

Great Scott...... There are almost 2000 copies submitted to cgc??

There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98

 

Are you sure about that...?

 

Now I wish I had a copy of SCCB at my office.

Man of Steel #18 didn't make the 1992 Top Yearly Sales list... (but #19 and #20 did).

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1992.html

 

Since #300 is X-O Manowar #14, and since the estimated print run was 225,000... MOS #18 direct sales would be below that number.

Your estimate for NM #98 was 250,000, it's pretty clear that NM #98 was printed in a higher number than MOS #18.

(I don't know if the newsstand sales and return rates would change that overall.)

 

I guess my assumption is that MOS #18 survived in higher numbers since it was a "Death of Superman" key from the start, while NM #98 was nothing special for several years.

I'd be very surprised if MOS #18 has fewer in existence today, but it's definitely possible!

 

That Standard Catalog...it's such an invaluable resource. In any event, the numbers look like this:

 

New Mutants #98 - 55,200

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

For the year 1990 (into which New Mutants #98 would fall) Diamond doesn't have a top 300 list. However, doing a cursory peruse through the SCCB, New Mutants #98 was *probably* in the #75-125 range, maybe a little higher, but certainly no lower than #150.

 

That year was dominated, of course, by McFarlane's Spiderman, easily taking the top 7 spots. Next up would be Batman, Batman:LOTDK, and Uncanny X-Men, which jostled the next 36 spots throughout the year. Shortly after would be Amazing Spiderman, and Wolverine would be in the mix there, too. After that, there's really not anything that definitively beats NM #98 for the year.

 

As most of us know, this was the era that was dominated by the hot artist, and at that point, Liefeld was on fire. No one cared about Deadpool...true...but it was still a Liefeld book, and orders for #98 and #99 barely let up from the smash hit X-Tinction Agenda issues. So, even if the book by itself wasn't anything particularly special, it still would have sold well and been maintained in the era of bagging and boarding everything.

 

By contrast, MOS #18, coming out just about two years later, was not heavily ordered, and had no lead up to it to give it any boost. Prior to the Death of Superman (DOS), it was a critically low selling title, as the numbers above show. We know that MOS #18 didn't even break the Diamond top 300 for 1992, and when looking at the Cap City numbers, we see why.

 

And orders for MOS #18 were less than half the orders for New Mutants #98. As I think we've discussed in this thread before, the jump in numbers for the DOS and Funeral storylines were unbelievable; it's certainly possible that they were the greatest per-issue sales leaps, both in terms of percentages, and certainly in terms of real numbers, in the entire history of comics. But...MOS #18 wasn't a benefactor of that, as the Cap City orders show.

 

MOS #18 was a full 5-6 weeks before Superman #75 came out, almost enough time (perhaps enough time, at the time) for retailers to up their orders for future issues, after that book came out. And while MOS #18 did enjoy a nearly 30% increase in Cap City orders over #17, #19 saw a 267% increase over #18, and an astonishing 417% increase over #17.

 

So, at least initially, unless Cap City had something strange going on, at least the initial print numbers show MOS #18 being roughly half of New Mutants #98.

 

That brings us to the next consideration: extant numbers, and how to arrive at those.

 

While it is true that MOS #18 was part of the DOS storyline, initially, it wasn't considered anything particularly special in and of itself. Yes, it was always known as "the first appearance of Doomsday", but it took a decided back seat to Superman #75, as did the rest of the issues. In fact, only the surprise issue of JLA #69 had any real aftermarket boost in value immediately following the events of the storyline. And, after Superman "came back to life" less than 6 months later, in one of the most successful "ha ha! We got you, suckas!" moments in comics history, the storyline eventually faded into obscurity, and nobody cared any more, except for #75, which has always maintained "some" value over the last 23+ years.

 

So, we start with a print run that is, roughly, 50% less than New Mutants #98. We know that New Mutants #98 wasn't any great shakes, but it came out at a time when everyone and their mother was buying 10+ copies of New Mutants to save.

 

Then, with MOS #18, we see that same sort of "initial" popularity, and even of the same sort: not the focus, but certainly ancillary to the events of the day (Liefeld/Cable on New Mutants, DOS.)

 

Finally, we see both issues drift into obscurity, and end up in the cheapo boxes, for approximately two decades each.

 

My analysis is that, due to these circumstances, there would be roughly, within 10% either way, the same survival percentage of copies, in the same types of grades, due to the similarity of the circumstances surrounding each issue. What really limits #18, and why it has surprisingly maintained value, is that it started out, by all appearances, at about half the numbers for New Mutants #98, at least extrapolating from the Cap City numbers.

 

We don't know newsstand numbers, but there had been, by late 1992, not an inconsiderable falloff in newsstand sales overall over late 1990. Those may not have much bearing; newsstand copies for both books, especially in ultra high grade, appear to be quite rare, relative to their Direct counterparts.

 

So, while we see 8,000 or so copies of New Mutants #98 on the census, with certainly more to come, I don't believe we'll see even half that number of MOS #18, because they just don't appear to have been made in the same quantities, even if both books appear on the market with the same relative frequency today. And Doomsday would have to approach Deadpool-level popularity to flush those sorts of numbers out, if they exist. Deadpool is, for the time being, the most popular Marvel creation of the 1990's, and perhaps since Hulk #181. (Harley would be the DC equivalent, and she's the most popular DC character created since the 50's, by all appearances.)

 

 

Damn good analysis!

[valiantman]

Dumb question: What, if anything, does Doomsday's confirmed inclusion in Batman v Superman mean for the value of these books?

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done.

 

Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271.

 

Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18.

 

The pattern of rise and fall in prices before and after the movie doesn't depend on the number of copies... it's about the roller-coaster pattern.

 

Broadly speaking, I would agree with that, except that the amount of surviving copies, especially of ultra high grade examples, has a leveling effect on the roller coaster that easy access to ultra high grade copies, as is the case with MOS #18, does not.

 

Great Scott...... There are almost 2000 copies submitted to cgc??

There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98

 

Are you sure about that...?

 

Now I wish I had a copy of SCCB at my office.

Man of Steel #18 didn't make the 1992 Top Yearly Sales list... (but #19 and #20 did).

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1992.html

 

Since #300 is X-O Manowar #14, and since the estimated print run was 225,000... MOS #18 direct sales would be below that number.

Your estimate for NM #98 was 250,000, it's pretty clear that NM #98 was printed in a higher number than MOS #18.

(I don't know if the newsstand sales and return rates would change that overall.)

 

I guess my assumption is that MOS #18 survived in higher numbers since it was a "Death of Superman" key from the start, while NM #98 was nothing special for several years.

I'd be very surprised if MOS #18 has fewer in existence today, but it's definitely possible!

 

That Standard Catalog...it's such an invaluable resource. In any event, the numbers look like this:

 

New Mutants #98 - 55,200

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

For the year 1990 (into which New Mutants #98 would fall) Diamond doesn't have a top 300 list. However, doing a cursory peruse through the SCCB, New Mutants #98 was *probably* in the #75-125 range, maybe a little higher, but certainly no lower than #150.

 

That year was dominated, of course, by McFarlane's Spiderman, easily taking the top 7 spots. Next up would be Batman, Batman:LOTDK, and Uncanny X-Men, which jostled the next 36 spots throughout the year. Shortly after would be Amazing Spiderman, and Wolverine would be in the mix there, too. After that, there's really not anything that definitively beats NM #98 for the year.

 

As most of us know, this was the era that was dominated by the hot artist, and at that point, Liefeld was on fire. No one cared about Deadpool...true...but it was still a Liefeld book, and orders for #98 and #99 barely let up from the smash hit X-Tinction Agenda issues. So, even if the book by itself wasn't anything particularly special, it still would have sold well and been maintained in the era of bagging and boarding everything.

 

By contrast, MOS #18, coming out just about two years later, was not heavily ordered, and had no lead up to it to give it any boost. Prior to the Death of Superman (DOS), it was a critically low selling title, as the numbers above show. We know that MOS #18 didn't even break the Diamond top 300 for 1992, and when looking at the Cap City numbers, we see why.

 

And orders for MOS #18 were less than half the orders for New Mutants #98. As I think we've discussed in this thread before, the jump in numbers for the DOS and Funeral storylines were unbelievable; it's certainly possible that they were the greatest per-issue sales leaps, both in terms of percentages, and certainly in terms of real numbers, in the entire history of comics. But...MOS #18 wasn't a benefactor of that, as the Cap City orders show.

 

MOS #18 was a full 5-6 weeks before Superman #75 came out, almost enough time (perhaps enough time, at the time) for retailers to up their orders for future issues, after that book came out. And while MOS #18 did enjoy a nearly 30% increase in Cap City orders over #17, #19 saw a 267% increase over #18, and an astonishing 417% increase over #17.

 

So, at least initially, unless Cap City had something strange going on, at least the initial print numbers show MOS #18 being roughly half of New Mutants #98.

 

That brings us to the next consideration: extant numbers, and how to arrive at those.

 

While it is true that MOS #18 was part of the DOS storyline, initially, it wasn't considered anything particularly special in and of itself. Yes, it was always known as "the first appearance of Doomsday", but it took a decided back seat to Superman #75, as did the rest of the issues. In fact, only the surprise issue of JLA #69 had any real aftermarket boost in value immediately following the events of the storyline. And, after Superman "came back to life" less than 6 months later, in one of the most successful "ha ha! We got you, suckas!" moments in comics history, the storyline eventually faded into obscurity, and nobody cared any more, except for #75, which has always maintained "some" value over the last 23+ years.

 

So, we start with a print run that is, roughly, 50% less than New Mutants #98. We know that New Mutants #98 wasn't any great shakes, but it came out at a time when everyone and their mother was buying 10+ copies of New Mutants to save.

 

Then, with MOS #18, we see that same sort of "initial" popularity, and even of the same sort: not the focus, but certainly ancillary to the events of the day (Liefeld/Cable on New Mutants, DOS.)

 

Finally, we see both issues drift into obscurity, and end up in the cheapo boxes, for approximately two decades each.

 

My analysis is that, due to these circumstances, there would be roughly, within 10% either way, the same survival percentage of copies, in the same types of grades, due to the similarity of the circumstances surrounding each issue. What really limits #18, and why it has surprisingly maintained value, is that it started out, by all appearances, at about half the numbers for New Mutants #98, at least extrapolating from the Cap City numbers.

 

We don't know newsstand numbers, but there had been, by late 1992, not an inconsiderable falloff in newsstand sales overall over late 1990. Those may not have much bearing; newsstand copies for both books, especially in ultra high grade, appear to be quite rare, relative to their Direct counterparts.

 

So, while we see 8,000 or so copies of New Mutants #98 on the census, with certainly more to come, I don't believe we'll see even half that number of MOS #18, because they just don't appear to have been made in the same quantities, even if both books appear on the market with the same relative frequency today. And Doomsday would have to approach Deadpool-level popularity to flush those sorts of numbers out, if they exist. Deadpool is, for the time being, the most popular Marvel creation of the 1990's, and perhaps since Hulk #181. (Harley would be the DC equivalent, and she's the most popular DC character created since the 50's, by all appearances.)

 

 

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Dumb question: What, if anything, does Doomsday's confirmed inclusion in Batman v Superman mean for the value of these books?

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done.

 

Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271.

 

Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18.

 

The pattern of rise and fall in prices before and after the movie doesn't depend on the number of copies... it's about the roller-coaster pattern.

 

Broadly speaking, I would agree with that, except that the amount of surviving copies, especially of ultra high grade examples, has a leveling effect on the roller coaster that easy access to ultra high grade copies, as is the case with MOS #18, does not.

 

Great Scott...... There are almost 2000 copies submitted to cgc??

There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98

 

Are you sure about that...?

 

Now I wish I had a copy of SCCB at my office.

Man of Steel #18 didn't make the 1992 Top Yearly Sales list... (but #19 and #20 did).

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1992.html

 

Since #300 is X-O Manowar #14, and since the estimated print run was 225,000... MOS #18 direct sales would be below that number.

Your estimate for NM #98 was 250,000, it's pretty clear that NM #98 was printed in a higher number than MOS #18.

(I don't know if the newsstand sales and return rates would change that overall.)

 

I guess my assumption is that MOS #18 survived in higher numbers since it was a "Death of Superman" key from the start, while NM #98 was nothing special for several years.

I'd be very surprised if MOS #18 has fewer in existence today, but it's definitely possible!

 

That Standard Catalog...it's such an invaluable resource. In any event, the numbers look like this:

 

New Mutants #98 - 55,200

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

For the year 1990 (into which New Mutants #98 would fall) Diamond doesn't have a top 300 list. However, doing a cursory peruse through the SCCB, New Mutants #98 was *probably* in the #75-125 range, maybe a little higher, but certainly no lower than #150.

 

That year was dominated, of course, by McFarlane's Spiderman, easily taking the top 7 spots. Next up would be Batman, Batman:LOTDK, and Uncanny X-Men, which jostled the next 36 spots throughout the year. Shortly after would be Amazing Spiderman, and Wolverine would be in the mix there, too. After that, there's really not anything that definitively beats NM #98 for the year.

 

As most of us know, this was the era that was dominated by the hot artist, and at that point, Liefeld was on fire. No one cared about Deadpool...true...but it was still a Liefeld book, and orders for #98 and #99 barely let up from the smash hit X-Tinction Agenda issues. So, even if the book by itself wasn't anything particularly special, it still would have sold well and been maintained in the era of bagging and boarding everything.

 

By contrast, MOS #18, coming out just about two years later, was not heavily ordered, and had no lead up to it to give it any boost. Prior to the Death of Superman (DOS), it was a critically low selling title, as the numbers above show. We know that MOS #18 didn't even break the Diamond top 300 for 1992, and when looking at the Cap City numbers, we see why.

 

And orders for MOS #18 were less than half the orders for New Mutants #98. As I think we've discussed in this thread before, the jump in numbers for the DOS and Funeral storylines were unbelievable; it's certainly possible that they were the greatest per-issue sales leaps, both in terms of percentages, and certainly in terms of real numbers, in the entire history of comics. But...MOS #18 wasn't a benefactor of that, as the Cap City orders show.

 

MOS #18 was a full 5-6 weeks before Superman #75 came out, almost enough time (perhaps enough time, at the time) for retailers to up their orders for future issues, after that book came out. And while MOS #18 did enjoy a nearly 30% increase in Cap City orders over #17, #19 saw a 267% increase over #18, and an astonishing 417% increase over #17.

 

So, at least initially, unless Cap City had something strange going on, at least the initial print numbers show MOS #18 being roughly half of New Mutants #98.

 

That brings us to the next consideration: extant numbers, and how to arrive at those.

 

While it is true that MOS #18 was part of the DOS storyline, initially, it wasn't considered anything particularly special in and of itself. Yes, it was always known as "the first appearance of Doomsday", but it took a decided back seat to Superman #75, as did the rest of the issues. In fact, only the surprise issue of JLA #69 had any real aftermarket boost in value immediately following the events of the storyline. And, after Superman "came back to life" less than 6 months later, in one of the most successful "ha ha! We got you, suckas!" moments in comics history, the storyline eventually faded into obscurity, and nobody cared any more, except for #75, which has always maintained "some" value over the last 23+ years.

 

So, we start with a print run that is, roughly, 50% less than New Mutants #98. We know that New Mutants #98 wasn't any great shakes, but it came out at a time when everyone and their mother was buying 10+ copies of New Mutants to save.

 

Then, with MOS #18, we see that same sort of "initial" popularity, and even of the same sort: not the focus, but certainly ancillary to the events of the day (Liefeld/Cable on New Mutants, DOS.)

 

Finally, we see both issues drift into obscurity, and end up in the cheapo boxes, for approximately two decades each.

 

My analysis is that, due to these circumstances, there would be roughly, within 10% either way, the same survival percentage of copies, in the same types of grades, due to the similarity of the circumstances surrounding each issue. What really limits #18, and why it has surprisingly maintained value, is that it started out, by all appearances, at about half the numbers for New Mutants #98, at least extrapolating from the Cap City numbers.

 

We don't know newsstand numbers, but there had been, by late 1992, not an inconsiderable falloff in newsstand sales overall over late 1990. Those may not have much bearing; newsstand copies for both books, especially in ultra high grade, appear to be quite rare, relative to their Direct counterparts.

 

So, while we see 8,000 or so copies of New Mutants #98 on the census, with certainly more to come, I don't believe we'll see even half that number of MOS #18, because they just don't appear to have been made in the same quantities, even if both books appear on the market with the same relative frequency today. And Doomsday would have to approach Deadpool-level popularity to flush those sorts of numbers out, if they exist. Deadpool is, for the time being, the most popular Marvel creation of the 1990's, and perhaps since Hulk #181. (Harley would be the DC equivalent, and she's the most popular DC character created since the 50's, by all appearances.)

 

 

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

[valiantman]

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies.

Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies.

 

Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies.

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies.

Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies.

 

Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies.

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

 

 

It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine.

[rjrjr]

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies.

Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies.

 

Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies.

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

 

 

It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine.

 

So, there were at most 240 of the 1:500 variants printed for ... wait, wrong thread!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2015 by rjrjr

[valiantman]

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies.

Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies.

 

Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies.

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

 

 

It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine.

Are there circulation numbers for these books? Something that gives us an idea of the newsstand sales?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies.

Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies.

 

Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies.

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

 

 

It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine.

Are there circulation numbers for these books? Something that gives us an idea of the newsstand sales?

No. Because New Mutants was cancelled, they weren't required to print a SOO for issues #96-100, and DC had given up on SOOs by then.

[jimjum12]

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies.

Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies.

 

Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies.

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

 

 

It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine.

Are there circulation numbers for these books? Something that gives us an idea of the newsstand sales?

No. Because New Mutants was cancelled, they weren't required to print a SOO for issues, and DC had given up on SOOs by then.

 

..... I seem to recall CBG publishing a top 20 (or a top 50 ?) list of titles sold (weekly or monthly?) in their tabloid. As I recall, these listed number of titles sold, so I'm not sure if that would help..... nor am I sure how far back that feature went. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited December 8, 2015 by jimjum12

[RockMyAmadeus]

Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful!

 

MOS #17 - 18,700

MOS #18 - 26,350

#19 -96,700

#20 - 84,250

 

What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2?

 

We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values.

 

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.)

Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies.

Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies.

 

Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies.

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

 

 

It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine.

Are there circulation numbers for these books? Something that gives us an idea of the newsstand sales?

No. Because New Mutants was cancelled, they weren't required to print a SOO for issues #96-100, and DC had given up on SOOs by then.

 

That said, the numbers aren't probably much different, except issue #100, than the issues represented by the SOO in NM #99 (which covers issues #84-95.)

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

If all of this is true, the books to start to quietly buy up are the first printing of Justice League 69 and the first printing (with the wrap around) of Justice League 70.

Wouldn't it be a problem that none of the characters from Justice League 69 are in the movie?

That didn't seem to prevent the first issue of the '90s Guardians of the Galaxy series from getting a bump.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

PS. The whole Death of Superman storyline was pretty bad, from a literary standpoint.

 

We have an antagonist who just "shows up", with no back story whatsoever, and in the course of 6 issues, manages to take down the most powerful superhero in the DCU (yes, let's not talk about Spectre, et al.) without any explanation at all. There was no setup, there were no plot elements introduced earlier, there was nothing at all that made us care one whit about "Doomsday", or why he/she/it would or should have A. the motive, B. the opportunity, C. the ability to take down Supes.

 

It was a stunt, a gimmick, and boy did it sell books.

 

But as a literary work, it is awful.

 

It really makes you appreciate the pacing and plotting of storylines like Dark Phoenix, which groundwork was laid beginning in 1976...and didn't culminate until 1980.

 

I imagine, to young teens, it was the thrill of a lifetime.

 

But, just like watching The Poseidon Adventure (1972) as an adult, it wasn't ever very good to begin with.

 

One popular comic writer at the time (I think it was Peter David, but I could be wrong) claimed that the big problem with the storyline is that Superman (written properly) always finds a way to solve the problem that's more than just brute force.

[Gatsby77]

 

That gives us direct numbers for MOS as:

 

MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies

MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies

MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies

MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies

 

 

So... my neighbor has gathered himself 0.03% of the estimated print run? Awesome!