Why do people think New Mutants #98 had a "high print run"...? 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

good lord this thread is getting out of control. Its a common book but not a glut book. what more needs to be said?

 

[Bosco685]

Whoa!

 

 

 

Okay. Where to begin, but within reason.

 

The average speculator did not care about, and did not buy, multiple copies of, in general, issues 98-100, especially #100 with its actual ridiculous print run (500-600k copies), which still sold out at a distribution level and went to a second, and even a third, printing. But this was a different situation than previous sellouts, which happened at the retail level: this was one of the very first books that DEALERS speculated on across the nation, and so while the book was "sold out", once dealers realized that every other dealer had hundreds of copies of NM #100 on hand, it got dumped pretty unceremoniously a few months after X-Force #1 came out (keeping in mind that this was still before the days of the internet, and information took a long time to catch up to reality.)

 

New Mutants 87 was THE hot book of that run at the time. But the wildfire caused by Cable and Liefeld, once it took off and caught the right attention, caused speculation that there was much more ahead. To state it wasn't happening when it was (even Caira can confirm with his post, and I am sure others as well dealing in books at the time) is ignoring reality for the period.

 

None of the book ever reached the level of NM 87 sales, though the speculation that took place didn't care. Even Annual #5 was going for $8-$12 because it contained Liefeld content.

 

Where do you get this figure? It has been repeated in this thread by others, and is not correct. Cap City orders for the book were 806,100. If Diamond was twice that, which would have been quite astonishing, that makes another 1.6 million copies, or 2.4 total for the DM. Since the newsstand was generally immune to the print run madness, it's likely that not more than 2-300,000 newsstand copies were printed, which puts the total at, at best, 2.7 million copies. The published reports at the time were 1.75-2.5 million copies printed.

 

So where does this "5 million" figure come from, other than an unsourced statement on Wikipedia? And why does Wikipedia claim that it is "the second best selling comic of all time"...? Adventures of Superman #500 had Cap City orders of 879,000 copies, against Cap City orders of X-Force #1 of 802,000! That's almost 10% higher! Diamond's orders were certainly going to be similar. How, then, can anyone claim that it was "the second best selling comic book of all time"...? The numbers do not add up.

 

I've seen at least two-three mentions on wikipedia about a 4-5 MM run, so I know what you are referring to. But neither references the source. Even the Rob Liefeld page mentions a 4 MM book count, but no source.

 

On the other hand, there have been interviews with Liefeld (NOT that he would be the distribution expert) where even he mentioned being told the final count - with all card versions included - was over 4 MM.

 

But even with 2 MM X-Force #1s sold (still a crazy number to see in writing), that goes to show the demand and speculation around Liefeld's New Mutants work was way higher than just interest in New Mutants #87.

 

It was beat out by all the copies of X-Men Vol. 2 #1 at a record (est.) 8,014,500, which also shows the excitement surrounding Jim Lee. Crazy times!

 

And the same was true for the latter issues of New Mutants. People were crazy for #87...not the later issues.

 

And speculators focus on the NEXT hot thing...not the remnants of the LAST hot thing.

 

I think we agree to disagree. Even other members have mentioned the orders they were seeing at the time. And I definitely was seeing it.

 

because newsstand buyers almost never bought multiple copies, and speculators already had plenty of DM copies that they wouldn't have gone to the newsstand for copies.

 

That is what the words "almost never" mean: it doesn't mean no one ever did, it means that it was a very rare occurrence. The average newsstand buyer would consider it lunacy to buy multiple copies, and this has been true for most of comics history. The people who bought multiple copies were buying them at comics stores by this time. Hoards of newsstand copies set aside for speculation (as opposed to books simply warehoused), were and are extremely rare.

 

Although it was not happening frequently, there were speculators going out and buying newsstand editions because store orders were just being gobbled up. Sorry, but it is a fact. Otherwise, why would there still be so many copies of New Mutants #98 newsstand, though much lower in availability than direct?

 

As I already explained, New Mutants #98 was a LATTER issue of the run, long after Cable's and Liefeld's beginnings on the title, and while speculators DID run to the newsstands for the latest hot sellout, they did NOT do it for average, typical latter run issues.

 

Speculators were doing what they do best - assuming value either currently, or in a near-future period. And with X-Force being announced and ready to launch from New Mutants #100, the heat was building up. But New Mutants #87 was still THE hot book.

[oakman29]

I don't care.I have my 9.8. (thumbs u

[Bosco685]

I don't care.I have my 9.8. (thumbs u

 

 

[oakman29]

I don't care.I have my 9.8. (thumbs u

 

I kept it all these years for Domino,go figure.

[ThoseBackPages]

can someone explain to this newbie why Deadpool "matters"?

[slym2none]

Good question.

 

::

 

 

 

-slym

[Bosco685]

Good question.

 

::

 

 

 

-slym

 

+ 1

 

It is a very good question.

[dgarthwaite-migration]

It's not a book that I even want to own. If people like it, that's fine. Grab all you want and I'm happy for you.

 

DG

[DiceX]

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone in the thread, but here's my recollection of the times...

 

Uncanny was insanely hot. As was ASM.

There was a little heat on NM 87, 86, 88 (and later UXM 201) because of Cable's instant popularity.

The rest of New Mutants was lightly speculated on, but nothing major. Nobody gave two about Deadpool. There was more of a fanbase for Domino and any price paid above cover for NM98 was because of Domino.

 

McFarlane had his success with the release of the McSpiderman title. The fever was purely driven on McFarlane drawing Spidey.

Marvel was about to do a major marketing move by pimping X-Force and Jim Lee's X-Men title.

 

The drive for X-Men was purely driven on Jim Lee's popularity drawing the hottest comic on the stands.

 

The drive for X-Force, quite frankly, was purely driven on the fact that all these other reboots were hot so this one must be too. Cable had a following, but nobody gave two about Liefeld and even fewer gave a mess about Deadpool. The popularity of X-Force really didn't have much to do with New Mutants because other than issues 86, 87 and 88, nobody cared about it.

 

Now, mind you, my perspective is from an isolated small town. We had to drive 40 miles every week to get to a comic shop. There were a lot of people buying, but nobody cared anything about New Mutants, and once the sanity returned after buying X-Force #1, nobody cared about that title either.

 

Anyway, back to you guys. That's the scenario from my point of the universe.

 

 

[Apollo34]

Wow just read 75 posts! I feel like I just took a course on NM 98!! Great debate guys!

 

The only thing I can add is the statement that someone said NM 98 wasn't hot at the time. I agree it wasn't X-Men 1 hot but it was pretty hot. It was a comic I bought. I was a kid just started collecting and had limited money to spend. I loved NM and Cable I couldn't have been the only one.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Whoa!

 

 

 

Okay. Where to begin, but within reason.

 

The average speculator did not care about, and did not buy, multiple copies of, in general, issues 98-100, especially #100 with its actual ridiculous print run (500-600k copies), which still sold out at a distribution level and went to a second, and even a third, printing. But this was a different situation than previous sellouts, which happened at the retail level: this was one of the very first books that DEALERS speculated on across the nation, and so while the book was "sold out", once dealers realized that every other dealer had hundreds of copies of NM #100 on hand, it got dumped pretty unceremoniously a few months after X-Force #1 came out (keeping in mind that this was still before the days of the internet, and information took a long time to catch up to reality.)

 

New Mutants 87 was THE hot book of that run at the time.

 

What time?

 

March of 1990?

 

Or June?

 

Or September?

 

Or December?

 

Or June, 1991?

 

Because these precise dates matter. The entire thing (that is, the time where the "buzz" would have actually affected PRINT RUNS and SALES) only lasted 14 months, from #87-100, from the very beginning to the end of New Mutants.

 

But the wildfire caused by Cable and Liefeld, once it took off and caught the right attention, caused speculation that there was much more ahead. To state it wasn't happening when it was (even Caira can confirm with his post, and I am sure others as well dealing in books at the time) is ignoring reality for the period.

 

I'm not quite sure where I stated "it" (which I presume to mean "the wildfire caused by Cable and Liefeld") wasn't happening during this nebulous period which you have left undefined. Can you please point out where I said such a thing?

 

Because the reality is, you cannot, and I cannot, and no one can, state that "THIS is the day that New Mutants #87 took off", or "THAT is the day." No one can do that, because it is a matter of degrees, and always will be. Especially in the days before the internet, there was no way to know what was "hot" in one region, and what was "wildfire" in another, and what had "taken off" in another.

 

I bought nearly every single one of my copies of #89-92 (10-20 copies each) AFTER #95 had come out, and for cover plus a quarter (because I never would have spent more.)

 

Was #87 a rumbling book by #93? Yes. Was Liefeld getting a LOT of buzz? Yes. Was #87 a $20 book by the end of 1990? Yes. Yes. Yes.

 

But these are degrees, and no one can define them, because they are undefinable by nature. What I CAN tell you is this: during ALL of 1990, Cable and Liefeld were not the hottest thing since sliced bread. In early 1990, that distinction belonged to McFarlane, Spidey and then Ghost Rider, and then Spidey by McFarlane. Proof? Check out the four OPG Updates published during the year...that was about the best thing in those days in terms of a "national comics market" news magazine, at least in terms of how the market was doing. CBG, as always, was more interested in the creative side of the industry. And what do they say?

 

Well, for the entire year of 1990, Cable is barely mentioned. Liefeld is barely mentioned. By the end of the year, when the 1991 OPG was being compiled (about the same time that NM #98 was published), New Mutants #87 was listed for $6 as "First App Cable."

 

But the entire year...not much of anything. Couple of mentions here and there. The whole year was dedicated to McFarlane, and Spidey, and Ghost Rider, and the X-Men, and Jim Lee, and X-Tinction Agenda.

 

Now, granted, I understand that OPG was slow to catch up to reality, but as I have said before, OPG was the great equalizer nationwide...what was hot in one region, once confirmed in the Updates, almost always became hot everywhere. And Jon Warren was VERY good at keeping things updated in those days.

 

In the 1990 Market Report by Bob, written in very early 1991, space is devoted to Spiderman, because 1990 really was Spiderman's year. McFarlane and Spiderman. That was the biggest deal, all year. An entire large paragraph was devoted to just that book.

 

At the end of the year, the biggest books were Batman #457, then Superman #50, then Robin #1, all of which were instant huge hits. Superman #50 got national media attention as the engagement issue. All three are mentioned in the report as well.

 

Lobo is also mentioned, because it was a fairly big hit, too. The other Marvel titles mentioned were GOTG, Namor, Hulk, and "the biggest surprise of all," Ghost Rider, which got a couple of sentences mention, and then Punisher, Wolverine, and "all Spiderman titles".

 

What is missing from this? Not a single mention of the words "New Mutants", "Liefeld", or "Cable."

 

In fact, in the 1991 OPG, #88 and #89 aren't even broken out...they're listed at $1.

 

Ah, but with the cancellation of New Mutants with #100 in February of 1991...and the subsequent announcement of X-Force #1 in June, a scant four months later...then things got really interesting. THAT was when things got hot but, you see, that was AFTER all the New Mutants had been published. In fact, Marvel did almost the same thing with Liefeld that they did with McFarlane (why change what works?) McFarlane left Amazing in late 1989, and then Spidey #1 came out in June of 1990, more than 7 months later, during which time demand built to a fever pitch.

 

The same thing happened with X-Force. NM #100 comes in February, and then there's a 4 month gap...and demand built to a fever pitch.

 

One year later, in the Market Report for 1991, my how things have changed. The first paragraph in the 1991 year in review is dedicated to X-Force #1, Cable, and its ramifications on the market (as an aside, Bob Overstreet says X-Force #1 had a print run of 3.6 million. I think that's high, but still it's nowhere near 5 million.) Later in the report, he mentions the "controversial move" of issuing a metallic reprint of New Mutants #87, because, in his words, " it experienced a run up in price due to Cable's popularity as a member of X-Force."

 

And, in the OPG itself, #87 is $50, #88 is broken out as "Cable's 2nd appearance" as is #89, #93 and #94 are "Cable vs. Wolverine", and #97 is listed as "Cable and Wolverine on-c, but no app." #86 is even listed as "Cable cameo (last page teaser)"

 

My, what a difference that year made.

 

And, in the last Update before the yearly, published in December of 1991, it's all New Mutants #87 all the time. In fact, Bill Townsend of Electric City makes a very interesting comment in his report "when I think of all the copies of New Mutants #87 I sold a year ago for $5, I want to cry." Again...this report was written around October of 1991.

 

I don't dispute that people were speculating. They were. I don't dispute that people were buying multiples. They were. I was. But was it crazy during 1990? NO. And that was the reason the print runs for New Mutants didn't escalate sharply until #100.

 

And there were complaints about Liefeld's art very early on, which was unlike what happened with McFarlane and Lee.

 

None of the book ever reached the level of NM 87 sales, though the speculation that took place didn't care. Even Annual #5 was going for $8-$12 because it contained Liefeld content.

 

I don't disagree with any of this. The question, however, is WHEN, which you won't state, and is the key issue.

 

Where do you get this figure? It has been repeated in this thread by others, and is not correct. Cap City orders for the book were 806,100. If Diamond was twice that, which would have been quite astonishing, that makes another 1.6 million copies, or 2.4 total for the DM. Since the newsstand was generally immune to the print run madness, it's likely that not more than 2-300,000 newsstand copies were printed, which puts the total at, at best, 2.7 million copies. The published reports at the time were 1.75-2.5 million copies printed.

 

So where does this "5 million" figure come from, other than an unsourced statement on Wikipedia? And why does Wikipedia claim that it is "the second best selling comic of all time"...? Adventures of Superman #500 had Cap City orders of 879,000 copies, against Cap City orders of X-Force #1 of 802,000! That's almost 10% higher! Diamond's orders were certainly going to be similar. How, then, can anyone claim that it was "the second best selling comic book of all time"...? The numbers do not add up.

 

I've seen at least two-three mentions on wikipedia about a 4-5 MM run, so I know what you are referring to. But neither references the source. Even the Rob Liefeld page mentions a 4 MM book count, but no source.

 

On the other hand, there have been interviews with Liefeld (NOT that he would be the distribution expert) where even he mentioned being told the final count - with all card versions included - was over 4 MM.

 

But even with 2 MM X-Force #1s sold (still a crazy number to see in writing), that goes to show the demand and speculation around Liefeld's New Mutants work was way higher than just interest in New Mutants #87.

 

Absolutely...long AFTER New Mutants ceased publication.

 

It was beat out by all the copies of X-Men Vol. 2 #1 at a record (est.) 8,014,500, which also shows the excitement surrounding Jim Lee. Crazy times!

 

And the same was true for the latter issues of New Mutants. People were crazy for #87...not the later issues.

 

And speculators focus on the NEXT hot thing...not the remnants of the LAST hot thing.

 

I think we agree to disagree.

 

By all means, feel free.

 

Even other members have mentioned the orders they were seeing at the time. And I definitely was seeing it.

 

"The plural of anecdote is not evidence."

 

What time are you referring to? June of 1990? September? December? April of 1991? The numbers do not lie. There was no massive upswing in either the print runs OR the sales of the later issues of New Mutants. It simply did not happen, except for issue #100. I have already stated, multiple times, that the average print runs and sales were up approximately 60% from issue #87...but this is not a "wildfire." X-Force #1 being TEN to TWENTY TIMES the print run of #87...now THAT is an upswing.

 

because newsstand buyers almost never bought multiple copies, and speculators already had plenty of DM copies that they wouldn't have gone to the newsstand for copies.

 

That is what the words "almost never" mean: it doesn't mean no one ever did, it means that it was a very rare occurrence. The average newsstand buyer would consider it lunacy to buy multiple copies, and this has been true for most of comics history. The people who bought multiple copies were buying them at comics stores by this time. Hoards of newsstand copies set aside for speculation (as opposed to books simply warehoused), were and are extremely rare.

 

Although it was not happening frequently, there were speculators going out and buying newsstand editions because store orders were just being gobbled up. Sorry, but it is a fact.

 

I'm not quite sure why you insist on repeating this, when issues #96, 97, 98, 99, and 100 were not "gobbled up" at comic stores. You reject the concept that speculators turned to the newsstands only when current issues were immediate sellouts, when all evidence and common sense states otherwise.

 

If the books were still available at the distribution level...and they were...why would speculators NEED to turn to the newsstands, if they could simply reorder more?

 

But for a book like Batman #457, Superman #50, Robin #1...yes, those DID sell out at the distribution level, and speculators WERE forced to turn to the newsstands, because the books weren't available for cover price through the DM anymore. We know they sold out fairly quickly at the distribution level, both through contemporaneous market reports, and the fact that second printings (and even a third printing for Robin #1) were issued within a month or two of the original books.

 

What is your evidence that New Mutants #98 sold out at the Direct Market level?

Since Marvel had JUST second printed #95, AND X-Men #270, AND X-Factor #60, AND New Warriors #1, AND Ghost Rider #5, and would again for New Mutants #100 two months later, they clearly had no problem second printing recent hot issue sellouts...and yet, there is no second printing for 96, 97, 98, 99...if Marvel didn't sell out at the distribution level (meaning reorders were available), what possible evidence do you have that speculators NEEDED to turn to the newsstand market to satisfy their "gobbling" demands...?

 

There is none. Every store in the nation with a Cap City or Diamond account could EASILY reorder any book that had sold out at the retail level, but was still available at the distribution level. Clearly, since none of those issues sold out at the distribution level, the demand of the speculators was met with the existing Direct Market run.

 

Otherwise, why would there still be so many copies of New Mutants #98 newsstand, though much lower in availability than direct?

 

Because approximately 50,000 copies of the book sold to individuals across the US and Canada, via the normal newsstand distribution and sales market. That's how. This is self-evident, is it not?

 

As I already explained, New Mutants #98 was a LATTER issue of the run, long after Cable's and Liefeld's beginnings on the title, and while speculators DID run to the newsstands for the latest hot sellout, they did NOT do it for average, typical latter run issues.

 

Speculators were doing what they do best - assuming value either currently, or in a near-future period. And with X-Force being announced and ready to launch from New Mutants #100, the heat was building up. But New Mutants #87 was still THE hot book.

 

As I already explained...speculation AFTER the books had already become back issues has no effect on the print runs or sales figures of those books as new issues.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The only thing I can add is the statement that someone said NM 98 wasn't hot at the time. I agree it wasn't X-Men 1 hot but it was pretty hot.

 

Context.

 

Was it hot because it was a Liefeld New Mutants Cable book?

 

Yes.

 

Was it hot because of Deadpool?

 

Not in the slightest.

 

That's one of the foundations of the discussion,.

[kimik]

I posted this in another thread earlier, but to say that NM 98 was not speculated on in volume is not accurate. It definitely was, but moreso by store owners since the Leifeld NM run was selling well for them. Here are some local examples:

 

1) The smallest LCS owner in town that was around at the time has been selling off his last case of NM 98s over the past two to three years in dribs and drabs (I started buying them at $50 per book up to $95 per copy recently). He bought it to speculate on the 1st appearances in the book and does not have cases that I know of for the other Leifeld issues.

 

2) Three or Four years ago one LCS owner had to raise $$$ fast (family illness, I believe) and another one picked up 10,000 backstock CA and early MA books. While there was a lot of , he pulled out a long box of NM 98s in the mix. There were no NM 87s in the stash, though, which backs up the claim that Cable was the big draw.

 

I have seen other smaller hoards of NM 98s (and ASM 300s, etc.) locally as well.

 

While it was not speculated on to the extent that X-Men #1 or McSpidey #1 were, there are still a lot of copies out there.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2013 by kimik

[RockMyAmadeus]

"The plural of anecdote is not evidence."

 

[kimik]

What would I need to do - survey every store owner that was open back then to see how many copies they purchased to determine whether it was hoarded?

 

Back then any 1st appearance, new #1, or potentially "hot" issue was speculated on by the stores. Were average collectors picking up cases of NM 98? Not likely. However, if two of the LCS owners still standing from the implosion had a case and a long box left over here in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, I doubt they were the only two store owners in North America that speculated in volume on this book as well.

 

That being said, as the guy who had the case of NM 98s told me, that case is covering the cost of all of the other 90s #1s and "hot" books he has cases/boxes of sitting in the back from failed speculation.........

[the blob]

So, basically, circulation wise new mutants was crushing marvel mainstays like captain america, thor, daredevil and iron man. I wouldn't consider those "dregs", but whatever.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Of course it was hoarded. That's never been the question. The question is to what degree were they hoarded, and why.

 

A case is 150-300 books (probably 300 for New Mutants #98.) A long box of bagged/boarded books is about 250. That's really not that much for a store to have as back stock.

 

For a store owner to still have cases of certain books doesn't mean much, because hundreds of stores routinely bought books by the case in that time period. And if they STILL have a case, 23 years after the book first came out, they prove the point: the book was a dud for most of its life, and only the most ardent speculator stuck it out for the 18 years or so that it took to finally pay off! How is that not just luck by this point, rather than effective speculation? The book was worthless for 18 years!

 

First appearances were speculated on? Mmm...I dunno, no one bought cases of Thor #412 and put them away. No one has cases of New Warriors #1 still hanging around. Neither Deadpool, Domino, nor Gideon made much of an impact on the comics world when they were available for ordering.

 

What were the potentially hot issues, #1 issues, and first appearances that were speculated on that actually turned out to be winners?

 

Ghost Rider #1 took retailers by surprise. It wasn't speculated on during ordering.

 

Spiderman #1 took no one by surprise. It WAS speculated on during ordering.

 

GR #1 was worth $25 by summer. Spiderman #1...? Eh. Not so much.

 

Superman #50 caught everyone with their pants down. So did Batman #457, and Robin #1. No one speculated on them when ordering.

 

NM #98 has been far too valuable, for far too long, for the light to not be shone on hoards and mini-hoards, and sold. Your examples are almost certainly the huge exceptions to the rule by now. I doubt there are more than a couple dozen people worldwide who have more than 25 copies of this book at this point.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So, basically, circulation wise new mutants was crushing marvel mainstays like captain america, thor, daredevil and iron man. I wouldn't consider those "dregs", but whatever.

 

"Crushing"...?

 

Cap City order numbers:

 

Thor #429 - 36,000

 

Daredevil #289 - 25,200

 

Captain America #382 - 28,800

 

Iron Man #265 - 31,800

 

New Mutants #98 - 55,200

 

"Crushing"...?

 

Where's the crush?

 

McFarlane Spiderman was crushing Marvel mainstays. New Mutants...? Not so much.

[fastballspecial]

My finger hurts from scrolling.